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[mantidor]

This whole thing is going to be a huge test for wikipedia's arbitration and ruling system.

Not because there are far more controversial issues, there certainly are, and not because it's actually an important issue, sadly gamergate rarely addresses the real issues of how problematic game journalism or sexism is in tecnology related fields (and besides the awful threats it won't amount to much in real life), but because the players at this pathetic thing have been raised in the internet culture of forums and threads and online discussions, they are, for better or worse, the core of wikipedia's method, so they can and know how to play this game, or more than knowing, they are obsessed about it, they won't let go.

 

[freethought]

You could literally apply that logic to the Dragon Age Inquisition banners that flooded my browser December 2014; DAI aka - game of the year.

Side note: I really like Dragon Age Inquisition.

Really you could apply it to any PR or advertising ever. His point seemed to be that private individuals have apparently taken it upon themselves to buy advertising on the issue which you have to admit is less common than a video game publisher advertising a video game at Christmas.

 

[squarerootofpie]

Yes, people who hate Anita for supposedly trying to "ruin" video games are praising a guy that has factually attempted to restrict the distribution and content of games through the process of law. The irony here is so strong it's headsplitting.

First thing that came to mind.

 

[jstripes]

First thing that came to mind.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Personally, I don’t understand grown men wasting their lives playing computer games.

- Milo Yiannopoulos, 14 Aug 2014

http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...g-raped-by-dorky-weirdos-on-grand-theft-auto/

 

[freethought]

Hey guys, it's not just people who hate videogames who are pro gamergate, taxi drivers too.

 

[tonysidaway]

This whole thing is going to be a huge test for wikipedia's arbitration and ruling system.

Not because there are far more controversial issues, there certainly are, and not because it's actually an important issue, sadly gamergate rarely addresses the real issues of how problematic game journalism or sexism is in tecnology related fields (and besides the awful threats it won't amount to much in real life), but because the players at this pathetic thing have been raised in the internet culture of forums and threads and online discussions, they are, for better or worse, the core of wikipedia's method, so they can and know how to play this game, or more than knowing, they are obsessed about it, they won't let go.

You'd think so. Actually, apart from the high publicity due to the death threats and what not, this case hasn't been that fraught. There just aren't that many of them and they're rather dim.

Remember Wikipedia has tangled with far better-organised groups before. The Scientologists, for instance, had developed harassment through the legal system and the press to a fine art, but they were no match for Wikipedia.

 

[tonysidaway]

You could literally apply that logic to the Dragon Age Inquisition banners that flooded my browser December 2014; DAI aka - game of the year.

Can Gamergate people afford a campaign of that magnitude? Did Dragon Age: Inquisition have this much negative press in the run up to Christmas? The technique is similar but the circumstances are quite different.

 

[Hackworth]

If anyone seriously wants to learn about gamergate I've got a sourced timeline here. It's pretty damning to the "ethics in journalism" narrative.
EDIT: Holy shit this thing has been going on for six months.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I still don't know what that is or even want to know. Shows you how much I spend on the gaming side.

You and me both brother. I still go gaming side though.

 

[freethought]

If anyone seriously wants to learn about gamergate I've got a sourced timeline here. It's pretty damning to the "ethics in journalism" narrative.
EDIT: Holy shit this thing has been going on for six months.

Yeah, I feel like even the Doritopope photoshops had largely disappeared after this long.

 

[mantidor]

You'd think so. Actually, apart from the high publicity due to the death threats and what not, this case hasn't been that fraught. There just aren't that many of them and they're rather dim.

Remember Wikipedia has tangled with far better-organised groups before. The Scientologists, for instance, had developed harassment through the legal system and the press to a fine art, but they were no match for Wikipedia.

I don't see this as an organized threat from outside, but more like the system testing itself, however you are right, Wikipedia is really committed to their vision and its a tough bone to break.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Every GGer I talked to said to me that it was about journalism ethics, but the more I talked to them the more I saw they are more worried about feminism in videogames than journalism.

Yeah. It's rather scary. Every single conversation I've had with a GGer that thinks its about journalism has, within a few sentences, devolved into hate against women.

My favorite was a guy that PM'd me and started talking about "the feminist incursion". But not in a hostile way. In a hipster way.

 

[jstripes]

Yeah, I feel like even the Doritopope photoshops had largely disappeared after this long.

Ya, that one blew over pretty quick. It was a scandal, but it involved products "gamers" liked, and a man that didn't bother them too much.

#GG is more of an existential crisis for them.

 

[jstripes]

Yeah. It's rather scary. Every single conversation I've had with a GGer that thinks its about journalism has, within a few sentences, devolved into hate against women.

It's pretty awful.

Everyone who still genuinely toes the "ethics in journalism" line at this point is under the influence of a potent mixture of stubborn pride, willful ignorance, and sheer denial. Especially since 90% of the time, when asked, the first example of an ethical breach they use is Zoe Quinn. (Who, of course, isn't a journalist...)

 

[Dryk]

Yeah, I feel like even the Doritopope photoshops had largely disappeared after this long.

There have been much bigger (ie existent) breaches of journalistic ethics in the last few years, but the only one that manage to gain and hold traction for a decent length of time was the one where a relatively unimportant girl the internet already hated was involved. That says so much.

It's actually really fascinating watching them operate because they seem to come at everything from this rule-based perspective where as long as they manufacture a thin layer plausible deniability around themselves nobody will be able to see through it. Turns out that that doesn't work so well in real life though.

Everyone who still genuinely toes the "ethics in journalism" line at this point is under the influence of a potent mixture of stubborn pride, willful ignorance, and sheer denial. Especially since 90% of the time, when asked, the first example of an ethical breach they use is Zoe Quinn. (Who, of course, isn't a journalist...)

I've seen them boldly claim that they can't talk about various industry incidents because they're not journalism related and go back to talking about Zoe...

 

[jstripes]

I've seen them boldly claim that they can't talk about various industry incidents because they're not journalism related and go back to talking about Zoe...

Next time just use this:

 

[pgtl_10]

Personally I see nothing wrong with the ban. Wikipedia is not taking sides and these editors need to grow up.

 

[freethought]

Ya, that one blew over pretty quick. It was a scandal, but it involved products "gamers" liked, and a man that didn't bother them too much.

#GG is more of an existential crisis for them.

Only difference.

Well that and the kind of ethical breaches Doritogate was symbolic of happen all the time. Gertsmanngate, probably others. I dunno, I gave up on videogame websites and magazines long ago because of ethical concerns I had about their relationships with publishers. Well, that and I joined gaf.

I didn't realise I should be more worried about their relationship with women developers. I mean it's obvious when you look at it. All of those positive female role models being shoved in our faces all the time. Well, their tits anyway. Still, I'm angry and no-one's paying ATTENTION!!!

 

[esms]

There have been much bigger (ie existent) breaches of journalistic ethics in the last few years, but the only one that manage to gain and hold traction for a decent length of time was the one where a relatively unimportant girl the internet already hated was involved. That says so much.

It's actually really fascinating watching them operate because they seem to come at everything from this rule-based perspective where as long as they manufacture a thin layer plausible deniability around themselves nobody will be able to see through it. Turns out that that doesn't work so well in real life though.

Oh that's right, there have been much more relevant example of breaches! Was it an Ubisoft or EA press screening of a new game where everyone who attended got a new tablet? None of the sites disclosed receiving the gift either. I'm gonna hunt for a link.

Edit: Found it.

This to me is a legit breach of journalistic ethics. Freebies the price of a tablet are pretty much forbidden.

 

[sasliquid]

We won't know the effect of the banning for a while. It will either stay as it is or get a little worse, if the page is like that the truth will speak for itself. Worse case scenario it gets flooded with pro-gg propoganda and conspiracies that get those users quickly banned.

I'm hearing Ryulong got banned or something from wikipedia, if so I hope youre ok if you read this

 

[freethought]

Oh that's right, there have been much more relevant example of breaches! Was it an Ubisoft or EA press screening of a new game where everyone who attended got a new tablet? None of the sites disclosed receiving the gift either. I'm gonna hunt for a link.

Edit: Found it.

This to me is a legit breach of journalistic ethics. Freebies the price of a tablet are pretty much forbidden.

Or the case Rob Florence left Eurogamer over. Funnily enough one of the journalists he outed who then attempted to sue him was a woman and still no outrage like this.

I guess because she hadn't slept with anyone and was just exploiting her twitter followers for personal gain it wasn't an issue.

edit: Like, if it was about journalistic ethics, shouldn't the journalist be the accountable party? Oh yeah, he's a man. Forgot.

 

[Kinyou]

Or the case Rob Florence left Eurogamer over. Funnily enough one of the journalists he outed who then attempted to sue him was a woman and still no outrage like this.

I guess because she hadn't slept with anyone and was just exploiting her twitter followers for personal gain it wasn't an issue.

edit: Like, if it was about journalistic ethics, shouldn't the journalist be the accountable party? Oh yeah, he's a man. Forgot.

There was also a pretty big thread on Gaf about Florence

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=497024


For a while it was pretty much the OT for whenever something suspicious happened. Sadly did the whole gamergate discussion take over in the end. The other irony of gamergate is that it pretty much killed any normal discussion about ethics

 

[JC Lately]

Forgive my Wiki-ignorance, but what’s to stop these banned feminist editors from assuming a new online identity , cloak their ip address with a VPN, and get right back to editing?

 

[jstripes]

Only difference.

Nope. Not the only difference. She made a game they didn't consider a game. Which is a cardinal sin. (See: Gone Home.)

(But yes, it was mostly because a woman. And in that sense, it was also because she had a sex life, which infuriated them.)

 

[Broseybrose]

For a while it was pretty much the OT for whenever something suspicious happened. Sadly did the whole gamergate discussion take over in the end. The other irony of gamergate is that it pretty much killed any normal discussion about ethics

I would imagine that those who engineered GG intended that to be one of the consequences of the shitstorm they stirred up. Maybe that's their sole intention.

edit - Well, that and terrorizing women out of the biz.

 

[freethought]

There was also a pretty big thread on Gaf about Florence

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=497024


For a while it was pretty much the OT for whenever something suspicious happened. Sadly did the whole gamergate discussion take over in the end. The other irony of gamergate is that it pretty much killed any normal discussion about ethics

Yeah, I remember it being a good thread. Wow at the end though. Off Topic always seemed pretty chill about gender, race, sexuality and the like but gaming side seemed pretty evenly split over gamergate and it honestly surprised me.

Sometimes if you go into a really old thread half of the posters are banned and all those grey names give a weird graveyard vibe. Gamergate threads looked like that as they were happening. They were warzones and still months later they get pretty heated.

This thread's been pretty cool in comparison. We could argue a bit more about the Wikipedia arbitration process but I think they've handled the situation quite well. I do feel bad for the people who were just fighting this stream of bullshit but hey, the wiki article is neutral which is all they wanted. Meanwhile some pro GG people got banned too and the article still identifies what shitlords they are.

I'll call that a win and sleep fine. I'd hope the four who were banned have perspective enough to do the same. It's justice that matters after all, not the war.

 

[esms]

Or the case Rob Florence left Eurogamer over. Funnily enough one of the journalists he outed who then attempted to sue him was a woman and still no outrage like this.

I guess because she hadn't slept with anyone and was just exploiting her twitter followers for personal gain it wasn't an issue.

edit: Like, if it was about journalistic ethics, shouldn't the journalist be the accountable party? Oh yeah, he's a man. Forgot.

Never heard of that Eurogamer case. Interesting read.

I feel that's the major hypocrisy of this GG thing. They want to talk about ethics in journalism, but never confront major failings in journalism when they happen.

 

[tonysidaway]

We won't know the effect of the banning for a while. It will either stay as it is or get a little worse, if the page is like that the truth will speak for itself. Worse case scenario it gets flooded with pro-gg propoganda and conspiracies that get those users quickly banned.

There's been a small influx of editors new to the article over the past day or two. Broadly speaking I'm seeing a couple of clueless throwaways and a handful of steady, trustworthy editors. The article isn't in danger of going back to being a paean for Gamergate. On balance I think it'll improve in quality because of the diversity of editors and approaches.

I'm satisfied to leave the editing and horse trading to others, now. I removed all Gamergate-related articles from my watchlist yesterday, and had to take a look at the article talk page and recent article history just now to respond to this post.

I'm hearing Ryulong got banned or something from wikipedia, if so I hope youre ok if you read this

It seems to be the result of an impasse over the so-called 1RR proposal, which would have forbidden Ryulong to perform more than a single revert on any page in any 72 hours. Towards the end of a case this kind of move can sometimes emerge as a result of brinkmanship among the arbitrators. It may not yet be the final word, although I think it likely is.

 

[DocSeuss]

I'm pretty glad with the bans going on at wiki right now. Some of those people--on both sides--were way over the top and didn't deserve the privilege of editing wiki. Especially that dude with the kanji or whatever in his name.

I prefer my approach to this situation, though. Block tags from all sides on twitter, focus on other stuff. Quickest way to kill a fire is to starve it of fuel.

 

[Mrdrboi]

Man this is really getting annoying. The damn gaters lack empathy and a set of morals. Its good to know they kick off legit admins on Wikipedia shows their true colors.

All of them are stupid right wing Rush Limbaugh listeners anyway. Not sure how it stayed alive this long.

 

[sir_roflcopter]

The problem with wikipedia is that a lot of the people who would take editing wikipedia seriously are the kind of person you don't want editing an important repository of knowledge.


side note: I was a "GGer" for a while. It's a hivemind of confirmation bias, circlejerking, etc etc. Part of the reason it's run so long is that some of the people it focuses on are often only mildly less silly.

 

[Hackworth]

I prefer my approach to this situation, though. Block tags from all sides on twitter, focus on other stuff. Quickest way to kill a fire is to starve it of fuel.

Kinda hard to do that when they seek out your family for threats tho.

 

[tonysidaway]

At 0314 GMT the motion to close the case reached an absolute majority, so now in principle it's up to a clerk to close it and distribute the final decision. There could be last minute vote switches, of course, but they do sound reasonably satisfied that they've done the best that could be done.

Second thoughts: there has been a request for the clerks to hold off while the case is tied with a nest bow.

 

[freethought]

I'm pretty glad with the bans going on at wiki right now. Some of those people--on both sides--were way over the top and didn't deserve the privilege of editing wiki. Especially that dude with the kanji or whatever in his name.

I prefer my approach to this situation, though. Block tags from all sides on twitter, focus on other stuff. Quickest way to kill a fire is to starve it of fuel.

Can I ask, in your analogy what do you imagine the fuel to be?

 

[Parmenide]

Gamergate is a misogynist hate movement. At this point if you see someone who actively identifies with Gamergate but presents reasonable, non-sexist opinions about women, it's either someone who jumped in without doing much research, someone who's dissembling, or someone who's showing off a specific area where their opinion isn't particularly sexist in order to provide cover for the movement as a whole.

That's just your interpretation. GG is a movement with a lot of pepole, some of them are "mysoginistic" others are not. Probably this will be my last post here but I can't stand when people abuse their powers to force their opinions.

 

[tonysidaway]

That's just your interpretation. GG is a movement with a lot of pepole, some of them are "mysoginistic" others are not. Probably this will be my last post here but I can't stand when people abuse their powers to force their opinions.

What is it about the other person's comment that you interpret as "abusing their powers to force their opinions?" Isn't your decision to express your opinion exactly the same? Am I also abusing my powers?

 

[Parmenide]

What is it about the other person's comment that you interpret as "abusing their powers to force their opinions?" Isn't your decision to express your opinion exactly the same? Am I also abusing my powers?

He banned someone just because he supported GG, he said nothing wrong, was civil and all. That's what I mean when I say "abusing power".

 

[crimsonheadGCN]

So they are harassing Ryulong.

He's protected his Twitter account, so no one can see his Tweets.

About an hour ago, KiA had around 8 threads on the frontpage about him.

It also seems like PressFarttoContinue is specifically targeting him.

 

[freethought]

That's just your interpretation. GG is a movement with a lot of pepole, some of them are "mysoginistic" others are not. Probably this will be my last post here but I can't stand when people abuse their powers to force their opinions.

Why is misogynistic in quotes in your post? Do you doubt it's existence in general?

 

[Parmenide]

Why is misogynistic in quotes in your post? Do you doubt it's existence in general?

It has become a term used very loosely.

 

[tonysidaway]

He banned someone just because he supported GG...

I don't see any such banning in the sequence of posts we're discussing.

 

[freethought]

It has become a term used very loosely.

Especially in regard to it's spelling.

Still, do you think some of GG are actually misogynistic? Or that they could only be described as such if the term is applied loosely, implying that you don't really believe any of them to be?

 

[squarerootofpie]

Wouldn't be the first time.

Jesus that's amazing. Why has no-one caught onto this, or if they have why is he still so revered?

He comes across as such an ass.

 

[tonysidaway]

It has become a term used very loosely.

Not really. Misogyny has become very widespread. Malicious lies about women in gaming are what has made Gamergate's name as mud. Remember the "Anita lied about reporting her harassment to the authorities" nonsense? And "Zoe lied about donations from the proceeds to Depression Quest going to charity?" Not to mention the hideous and bald-faced lies about sleeping with journalists to promote a video game. And the game where you beat Anita Sarkeesian to death? None of that is about ethics in gaming journalism. It's about malice.

 

[Parmenide]

I don't see any such banning in the sequence of posts we're discussing.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148922495&postcount=407

I said in a previous post in this very thread that I believe, actually not only that because I know for sure, that some GG supporters are misogynistic.

 

[Parmenide]

Not really. Misogyny has become very widespread. Malicious lies about women in gaming are what has made Gamergate's name as mud. Remember the "Anita lied about reporting her harassment to the authorities" nonsense? And "Zoe lied about donations from the proceeds to Depression Quest going to charity?" Not to mention the hideous and bald-faced lies about sleeping with journalists to promote a video game. And the game where you beat Anita Sarkeesian to death? None of that is about ethics in gaming journalism. It's about malice.

When did I denied those facts? Let me help you: never. My point was simply that some GG supporters are not bad and didn't derailed from the main point of the movement.

 

[tonysidaway]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148922495&postcount=407

Looks like a post by a banned poster. At this point I'll let it drop because you don't seem to have understood my point.

 

[Parmenide]

Looks like a post by a banned poster. At this point I'll let it drop because you don't seem to have understood my point.

He was banned for that post. He posted it here on GAF when he was still a member.

 

[tonysidaway]

When did I denied those facts? Let me help you: never. My point was simply that some GG supporters are not bad and didn't derailed from the main point of the movement.

I'm sure many EDL members are not personally racists. They just like to walk in a parade.

The main point of the movement, by the way, was to hound a female developer and try to make her kill herself.

 

[sqwarlock]

He was banned for that post. He posted it here on GAF when he was still a member.

According to his post history, it was also the first post he'd made in 6 years. Just seems odd to me that they would jump into a thread after six years just to defend gators. Not saying they should've been banned for it, but it does raise questions about the reasoning behind the post.