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New cartridge based non-emulated "Retro" console being kickstarted!
- Thread starter ultrazilla
- Start date
visiblemode
Member
This is definitely mega-niche. It seems like the kind of thing you want despite knowing it's not a practical choice in any way whatsoever. Still, for me, more something I'd read about, rather than buy.
Herbspiceguy
Member
I've proposed something like this as a fantasy scenario where Sony, MS and Nintendo all agree to release their own retro gen console as a fun side project to kind of celebrate gaming and have demakes of current popular and critically acclaimed AAA+ titles.
They would agree to only release exclusives. Established indie devs could make games as a second party.
The consoles would all have the same amount of "bits", but with modern online (multiplayer) and storage capabilities.
I think it would be really interesting to see how these games, original or demakes, match up with modern big budget games in terms of quality and creativity.
They would agree to only release exclusives. Established indie devs could make games as a second party.
The consoles would all have the same amount of "bits", but with modern online (multiplayer) and storage capabilities.
I think it would be really interesting to see how these games, original or demakes, match up with modern big budget games in terms of quality and creativity.
outunderthestars
Banned
This seems like one of the worst ideas I have ever heard in the gaming space.
Why would I want to spend $200 or so for a system where I will have to mail order a handful of games (that will all surely be on Steam/consoles) and then have to play them on some janky Walmart budget bin controller?
This product actually manages to seem worse than the Ouya and Gamestick.
How does this make any sense to you?
Why would I want to spend $200 or so for a system where I will have to mail order a handful of games (that will all surely be on Steam/consoles) and then have to play them on some janky Walmart budget bin controller?
This product actually manages to seem worse than the Ouya and Gamestick.
How does this make any sense to you?
Night Angel
Member
I hope this stupid idea doesn't get funded.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
A cool idea in theory but sounds faulty in the execution.
...That's a lot of problems. However these guys may still have time to fix it if they:
If you're wondering why this is so long, it's because I've written up tons of ideas for my own retro-like system, and some of these ideas are pulled from there. If I were designing this thing there'd be a fair bit more going on but needless to say, there IS a market for a proper enthusiast retro system, despite some of the more oblivious posts I've read in the thread. But it doesn't matter if there's a market for something or not; if the product doesn't appeal to that market, it won't sell very well.
Just look at the Wii U
.
- The retro scene values the design and architecture of old school consoles just as much as we value the games. There's endless talk over the Sony sound chip in SNES, exploiting the Yamaha sound chip in Genesis, the 68000 microprocessor, the multi-processor design of the Saturn, etc. We dig that shit a lot. This console is probably using a generic ARM SoC processor with some Android variant. There's nothing inherently interesting about that anymore
- Going FPGA to simulate multiple retro systems robs the console of having its OWN identity. Again, in the retro scene, we love these systems because of the properties that culminate to give them their identity that is wholly unique upon that particular console. FPGA ensures this system will never obtain that kind of uniqueness
- Like others have said, the chances of 3rd parties licensing their games out for 16-bit "demakes" (TBH I think it'd improve certain games on a system like this are pretty damn low. I don't even mean that because of the retro theme; that said this possibly being another Android SoC box and FPGA gives it a soulless identity and risks it being a "jack of all trades, master of none" system. One that limits its games to physical carts (not the bad part) that are playable *only* on that console (this is the bad part), with no digital versions available on network services accessible by other devices...
- ...which leads to another problem. People like saying "exclusives don't matter". Well, you're wrong. They do, especially for a system like this. No one is going to buy a console that plays 16-bit demakes of games on a PS4, XBO, Steam etc, at least...not just for that reason. It needs compelling original software to drive adoption because it doesn't have much else going for it (especially if there's no digital equivalent, and is simply a FPGA Android SoC solution). There's only a demo of one game out there I'm aware of and it looks okay for a first-gen launch SNES game but not extraordinary, nor does it seem to have any unique game mechanics in place. It needs more original software.
- Another problem is the design. There's a reason the Jaguar failed, and you do NOT want to give people the feeling your system is anything like the Jaguar. Yes it has its pockets of fans but let's just be frank and say its community is nowhere near as large or beloved as other "failed" consoles like the NeoGeo or Sega Saturn. What these guys should have done is licensed a design after something like the NeoGeo, or Sega Genesis, or Turbographx/PC Engine, etc. None of those respective companies are actually in the console manufacturer business anymore, and some (Sega in particular) have shown a tenacity for granting licenses for clones to use their 16-bit console's likeness (and even come bundled with their software). Those three systems are much more beloved than the Jaguar and would ensure that a retro-themed console patterning their design would generate more nostalgia and more support, thus more money and more sales (and yes, the SNES is also very beloved but Nintendo would never give another company permission to use their design's likeness in a product, not without probably shutting it down or demanding a lot of money for granting the privilege)
...That's a lot of problems. However these guys may still have time to fix it if they:
- Offer a digital, 100% emulated version of their system, preferably as a streaming service through a website or app, where they can time-release the console library for players on other devices besides their console. They could implement a small subscription fee and even make some of the games playable for free possibly to entice them to buy the console and physical copy of games
- Go for a processor architecture that captures the spirit of old 16-bit systems, but provide tons of documentation so that it's easy/manageable for today's developers (particularly those in the indie scene on x86 devices). This is tough, because almost any processor out there today is magnitudes stronger than a Genesis 68k, for instance. The best they can do is go for modern day processors that are in the same family. For example, a Motorola Dragonball processor (a variant of which is being used in a new LG smartphone releasing this month. Yes, I know....it's an ARM SoC, but it's either that or a ColdFire variant or an actual 68k. Or hell...something I guess...)
Even if they did that, there's the risk that many indie devs today are not familiar with those architectures and may not have the time or money to learn them. If they can find an x86 or (less desirably, but eh..) ARM variant that imitates the general nature of 16-bit consoles of the time, while providing familiarity with today's architectures or making sure the pain in learning what the console uses is as small as possible, they should preferably aim for that. - Pour quality time and effort in giving it a real identity. Logos, font types, flyers, mimicking advertising from that era, you name it. The more they pour into the little details, the better.
- Don't make it TOO retro. By this I mean bring modern features like a unified account system (for console owners, one where they can cross-play with people on the digital service and also play their own collection of games between the console and digital platform with full transfer of data between the two) and online multiplayer. Not everything was awesome in the 90s
- Most importantly, SHOW US MORE GAMES! Real, quality games that are every bit as engaging and memorable as the best from that era (well, there's room for those of lesser quality too, but you get the point). Also just because it's a retro-themed 16-bit system doesn't mean the games have to be as plain-jane as some of the ones from that era. They mentioned Shovel Knight and that's a pretty solid example of the baseline type of quality they should be shooting for in regards of games that are a good mix of old and new. They also need to focus on a set of genres for sake of library diversification.
If you're wondering why this is so long, it's because I've written up tons of ideas for my own retro-like system, and some of these ideas are pulled from there. If I were designing this thing there'd be a fair bit more going on but needless to say, there IS a market for a proper enthusiast retro system, despite some of the more oblivious posts I've read in the thread. But it doesn't matter if there's a market for something or not; if the product doesn't appeal to that market, it won't sell very well.
Just look at the Wii U
.giancarlo123x
Banned
This is a awful idea.
It makes sense in only the vaguest sense: having a system with no load times, actually owning the games that you've paid for, having a system with (hopefully) no menu and just being a pure gaming machine, having the wonderful feeling of putting a cartridge into the thing, etc. I know that this thing will fail, and it pains me to know that there are so many people out there who would throw away their rights of ownership for a bit of convenience.
Projectjustice
Banned
I feel the same way!
pizzapizza64
Member
Preach
perfectchaos007
Member
Nintendo has never taken away any of my digitally downloaded games. Is this an issue that affects other people?
As cool as I think this is....
I am having a hard time getting around this.
But hell, if they actually manage to net enough bad ass exclusives, I guess Ill bite.
You know, if they actually did something crazy like somehow make a YM2160 clone chip (Neo-Geo sound chip) and combine it with a C64 SID clone chip with real analog filters, and have the rest be low powered ARM7 chips or whatever, that would be much more interesting. Silly and esoteric, yes, but way more retro and inspiring than some ARM SoC. At least to chiptune artists, anyway.
Like you said, most indie devs, save for a few, probably wouldn't know where to start with ancient hardware nowadays. Especially when they can just reach for Unity and go to town.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Which is the biggest problem. I can't imagine the costs they'd have to spend on equipment and materials to get acclimated to that kind of hardware, let alone the fact they'd have to code in assembly (taking a shot in the dark here, but I'd reckon most programmers today aren't very good with pure assembly. There's been no reason to be, honestly). And a solid retro enthusiast system would need hard-hitting games ASAP; there isn't any time to accumulate a solid few gems after the initial months/years of mostly average-to-mediocre 1st gen software the Genesis and SNES had (moreso the Genesis in that case, plus SNES being late out the gate gave more time for launch games like SMW).
I like your idea though with utilizing clone chips and an ARM processor. It's probably the best balance out of this you could honestly get. Just familiar enough for indies, but exotic enough to make them put some work in to get more out of the system over time.
There's enough room for both. I never got this binary mindset some people seem to have regards this.
Pier Solar Megadrive/Genesis Mode 7 Flight
Kagoshima_Luke
Gold Member
I can't express how amazing this is and I'll kickstart the shit out of this once it's available.
antisoulless
Banned
This is a bad idea.
Kagoshima_Luke
Gold Member
Da hell? Ouno was for playing mobile games on your TV. If anything, this an ANTI Ouya.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
B/c PS2 is still pretty modern compared to 16-bit consoles. Also, it'd require a decent bit more capital, which these guys may not have.
Not to mention it'd just require a lot more labor (and money) for both the system and games. And most of the indie scene dabbles in the 8/16-bit area anyhow.
breadtruck
Member
I want to like this idea, I really do.
But I dont, because its bad. Its just a completely bad idea.
But I dont, because its bad. Its just a completely bad idea.
NoFaceNico
Member
Don't spend money that you're going to miss if the project fails. Even if it reaches its funding goal that's no guarantee that it's going to be shipped to your door.
It's easy to be hopeful since everything is still in the "pie in the sky" stage of planning. They can make outlandish promises because they can't be proven wrong for having an idea and they don't have to worry about serious problems with the project right now. And I guarantee you they're going to run into problems down the road.
When listening to this guy on a podcast, he said something that made alarm bells go off for me. He said everything (console and cartridges) will be produced "in house." When Kickstarters try to manufacture or assemble stuff in house instead of taking it to a professional, that's when shit always gets messed up. They always end up wasting time and backer funds by trying to cut corners. They should just be honest and make the KS goal a realistic figure to have professionals manufacture their product.
This guy doesn't strike me as the most organized person.
That isn't just speculation, I backed Retro magazine for their first year Kickstarter. I only got 4 out of 6 issues and they were consistently late. Seriously, "year one" lasted like 15 months.
In the sense that there's no purpose to this machine.
LOL does this guy think he's a young Steve Jobs?When listening to this guy on a podcast, he said something that made alarm bells go off for me. He said everything (console and cartridges) will be produced "in house." When Kickstarters try to manufacture or assemble stuff in house instead of taking it to a professional, that's when shit always gets messed up. They always end up wasting time and backer funds by trying to cut corners. They should just be honest and make the KS goal a realistic figure to have professionals manufacture their product.
This guy doesn't strike me as the most organized person.
All consoles, old and new, turned out the way they did for a reason, and it wasn't because they were built by a 40-something hipster and some guy he knows that used to work for Sony. It's because they were calculated business decisions, backed by hundreds of millions of dollars, years of research, teams of engineers, designers, and all the manufacturing, marketing, and know-how that went along with it. Not to mention the multitude of first/third party studios backing them up.
I like the idea behind this, but I'm not sure it's going to be a success. Not even sure I'd buy it if it was, but it's interesting. I could see it selling decently. It reminds me of those plug and play games that were really popular like 10 years ago (with kids and middle aged people).
Don't spend money that you're going to miss if the project fails. Even if it reaches its funding goal that's no guarantee that it's going to be shipped to your door.
It's easy to be hopeful since everything is still in the "pie in the sky" stage of planning. They can make outlandish promises because they can't be proven wrong for having an idea and they don't have to worry about serious problems with the project right now. And I guarantee you they're going to run into problems down the road.
When listening to this guy on a podcast, he said something that made alarm bells go off for me. He said everything (console and cartridges) will be produced "in house." When Kickstarters try to manufacture or assemble stuff in house instead of taking it to a professional, that's when shit always gets messed up. They always end up wasting time and backer funds by trying to cut corners. They should just be honest and make the KS goal a realistic figure to have professionals manufacture their product.
This guy doesn't strike me as the most organized person.
That isn't just speculation, I backed Retro magazine for their first year Kickstarter. I only got 4 out of 6 issues and they were consistently late. Seriously, "year one" lasted like 15 months.
He's one of the hosts of the Retro Gaming Roundup podcast (which is quite good by the way) and he's actually a pretty good logistics guy.
Mikey Jr.
Member
Dunno, I think this is a bad idea. But I guess thats the power of kickstarter. People can make their own choice.
You know that you are probably going to pay triple for an indie release because they have to manufacture the cartridge, the box, a manual.
For what? The novelty?
And are devs really going to spend extra time developing for yet another console with an install base of probably less than 100k?
The beauty of digital is that it takes care of logistics. With this thing, how many carts do you make? 5000? What if you only sell 2000? The hell do you do with the rest?
You know that you are probably going to pay triple for an indie release because they have to manufacture the cartridge, the box, a manual.
For what? The novelty?
And are devs really going to spend extra time developing for yet another console with an install base of probably less than 100k?
The beauty of digital is that it takes care of logistics. With this thing, how many carts do you make? 5000? What if you only sell 2000? The hell do you do with the rest?
Admiral Woofington
Member
Sorry but no. Not only do they not look trustworthy to launch a fucking console, it's silly because I can get these games in digital download form. Nostalgia is up till a point don't waste your money. Especially with what happened to the Ouya, which looked much more organized.
s_mirage
Member
I just don't see the point of this. Old retro systems had their limitations, that is what made them unique, but those limitations were a product of their time. Those limitations drove the design of classic games in certain directions on certain systems and are why retro systems are so varied and fun to collect.
Producing a modern FPGA based system, just to play ports of indie games that are available for multiple systems already, doesn't hold any appeal to me at all. The system wont have any unique flavour, and it seems rather unlikely that it will have much in the way of unique software. The idea of resurrecting old franchises seems fanciful at best. Their owners could have done that already for a much larger audience if they'd wanted to.
Producing a modern FPGA based system, just to play ports of indie games that are available for multiple systems already, doesn't hold any appeal to me at all. The system wont have any unique flavour, and it seems rather unlikely that it will have much in the way of unique software. The idea of resurrecting old franchises seems fanciful at best. Their owners could have done that already for a much larger audience if they'd wanted to.
Ouya was already on par with PS2 modern ARM hardware should be able to easily push PS2 levels of polygons at 1080p.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Funny, I remember people saying basically the exact same thing about the first commercial indie games.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
...are you being serious?
I've sold my 3DS and formatted it before that, and I need to rebuy *every single digital game* in it again if I want to play them again, including the DLCs like Fire Emblem Awakening's.
Nintendo's lack of account system and the way it punishes legit consumers is just bloody retarded.
perfectchaos007
Member
Yeah they need an account system, but I have had no problem transferring my downloaded games from Wii -> Wii U, and then from DS -> 3DS ->3DS XL. Right now their lack of account system should only hurt those who have either had their gaming system stolen, or those who do a Gamestop trade in deal, and trade in their old system before transferring their content to the new system they just purchased.
ugh_the_boot
Banned
This isn't a very good idea (coming from someone who considers 16bit to be one of the best gaming eras). It's like the equivalent of going from modern day cars to a flinstones car. Why? They would be better off colaborating with compnies to bring 16bit 'themed' games and using the money to fund sequels to games that we never would've gotten in the first place. No online connectivity, limited storage etc are just going to be hurdles that will stop many people from buying this.
As much as I wish this was viable in today's market I think this idea is best left on paper. Let's stop trying to relive the old days and innovate in other ways, preferably games as the hardware has been established imo.
As much as I wish this was viable in today's market I think this idea is best left on paper. Let's stop trying to relive the old days and innovate in other ways, preferably games as the hardware has been established imo.
KaoteK
Member
I'm 41, so I have a lot of love for cartridge based systems, but this seems pretty pointless to me. I mean between indie games and emulators, you can OD on retro games until the cows come home, what niche does this fill other than the "I want to blow the contacts so the game will work" niche?
longnosedgoblin
Member
Snap, I am 41 and have owned pretty much every retro console. I find myself playing less AAA games and more emulated oldies and indie titles. I still own old hardware, and dislike some of the things modern gaming has brought us.
I am pretty much their target audience.
But I can play retro games on virtually any hardware, I have hundreds of steam titles purchased in sales. I have no problem with buying new hardware when needed but long gone are the days of paying £40 or whatever for a physical game, even if they could get it down to £25 for a cart it is still a big ask.
Ironically the only system I have never owned is a jaguar, it was but ugly and pretty much only have one descent game.
Never going to happen.
Konami give even less of a shit about games at this point, getting a near 20 year old game produced on cartridges for a system that isn't a major player and has no userbase is never going to happen.
nuttyevans
Member
moneyflushingdowntoilet.gif
Lynd7
Member
Well, that's kinda on you isn't it?
Sorry, even though Nintendo's current setup is a bit backwards, losing your games is on you, Nintendo didn't take them away.