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[Dr. Kaos]

Bitches at Konami don't have:

1- The balls to invest huge amounts of money while having faith MGS revenue will definitely exceed that and leave them with a tidy immediate profit, and a much larger potential profit thanks to very strong gaming brand among the 15-44 yo male demo.

2- The wisdom and selflessness to be willing to go bankrupt because of Kojima, because it's still worth it, because he is leaving humanity with an infinitely more valuable legacy than average gyms and harmful pachinko machines.

 

[MattKeil]

lol @ you guys taking a music composer's opinion as fact. I'm not disregarding her but the woman hasn't been involved with MGS since 2004(MGS3). This also doesn't explain why Kojima's name and studio was removed from the box art and promotional items.

Has anyone bothered to check if there's a clause in Kojima's contract that says they can't use his name to promote their games if he's not working for them? Because that really seems more likely to be the situation than it being a calculated insult to a former employee.

Bitches at Konami don't have:

1- The balls to invest huge amounts of money while having faith MGS revenue will definitely exceed that and leave them with a tidy immediate profit, and a much larger potential profit thanks to very strong gaming brand among the 15-44 yo male demo.

MGS' sales as a series do not support this statement at all. The whole point here is that the MGS games don't sell enough to justify their cost.

2- The wisdom and selflessness to be willing to go bankrupt because of Kojima, because it's still worth it, because he is leaving humanity with an infinitely more valuable legacy than average gyms and harmful pachinko machines.

Now I just think you're trolling.

 

[Neff]

An established financial failure that this renowned developer could get no one to fund for over a decade. I have nothing against Shenume, but this is a useless comparison.

Not really. It's an existing IP, has an established fanbase, and by extension represents a safe investment on Sony's part, conservative as it is. Investing in any new title from Kojima will potentially be a risk in comparison, since he's by no means a hit machine when working away from MGS (Snatcher was a huge flop outside of Japan, losing Konami a lot of money).

The original point I was replying to was whether Sony would be likely to give Kojima the kinds of funds and tremendous creative leeway he's been used to from Konami. Based on a variety of issues affecting Sony of late, including their tepid commitment to Shenmue III, I'm still saying no.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Not really. It's an existing IP, has an established fanbase, and by extension represents a safe investment on Sony's part, conservative as it is. Investing in any new title from Kojima will potentially be a risk in comparison, since he's by no means a hit machine when working away from MGS (Snatcher was a huge flop outside of Japan, losing Konami a lot of money).

The original point I was replying to was whether Sony would be likely to give Kojima the kinds of funds and tremendous creative leeway he's been used to from Konami. Based on a variety of issues affecting Sony of late, including their tepid commitment to Shenmue III, I'm still saying no.

If it's so safe, then why didn't Sega do it after almost 15 years?

 

[Apharmd]

Not really. It's an existing IP, has an established fanbase, and by extension represents a safe investment on Sony's part, conservative as it is. Investing in any new title from Kojima will potentially be a risk in comparison, since he's by no means a hit machine when working away from MGS (Snatcher was a huge flop outside of Japan, losing Konami a lot of money).

The original point I was replying to was whether Sony would be likely to give Kojima the kinds of funds and tremendous creative leeway he's been used to from Konami. Based on a variety of issues affecting Sony of late, including their tepid commitment to Shenmue III, I'm still saying no.

I seriously don't know how people consistently and regularly over-estimate Shenmue as a franchise in terms of investment feasibility.

I mean, really. Yu Suzuki vs Kojima. I'm a massive Shenmue fan and I am still a Sega fanboy, but it really is the farthest thing from my mind when I'm thinking about something that will make me money.

 

[Iorv3th]

If it's so safe, then why didn't Sega do it after almost 15 years?

What large franchises have sega invested in after the Sammy buy out?

 

[Deleted member 80556]

What large franchises have sega invested in after the Sammy buy out?

Wasn't the Sammy buy out rather recent? I mean there's still like 10 years before that happening where they didn't spend a cent on Shenmue.

Must have been a reason for that, right?

EDIT: Nevermind, I confused the buyout with Atlus.

 

[Neff]

If it's so safe, then why didn't Sega do it after almost 15 years?

Probably because they didn't want to put their name to a game with a third the size and content of Shenmue, which is probably what Shenmue III will end up being.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Probably because they didn't want to put their name to a game with a third the size and content of Shenmue, which is probably what Shenmue III will end up being.

But then you are supposing they would get the same budget as the one raised on KS. If it's a safe investment, surely they would invest more so it doesn't end up feeling a third of Shenmue, because they would get the investment back.

 

[border]

Fault to this post: Konami (or it's board) approved of all of this.

- Actor was a selling point for the game, which usage of the person's likeness did induce people to wanting to buy the game.

I don't think Keifer Sutherland's voice acting is really bringing a new audience to the game? The firing of David Hayter alienated as many fans as it delighted.

Konami's board approved some of this spending, but clearly not all of it. I don't think they wanted a 5-7 year dev time for their next mainline MGS. I don't think they wanted 2 years' dev time spent on Metal Gear Online, and an untold amount of time wasted on Metal Gear Rising Version 1. If this is what they'd wanted, I don't see why they showed Kojima the door.

Ultimately you could say the same thing about Team Bondi or Irrational Games. "Well Rockstar approved all that spending!" Maybe it's some executive's fault, maybe it's the game director's fault but it doesn't change the stark financial reality of the situation.

 

[Neff]

But then you are supposing they would get the same budget as the one raised on KS. If it's a safe investment, surely they would invest more so it doesn't end up feeling a third of Shenmue, because they would get the investment back.

I think a joint KS/Sony-funded 'Shenmue III lite' is a safe investment. I don't think a Shenmue III in line with the first two games is a safe investment. And I'm sure Sega don't either.

 

[Toparaman]

I must respectfully disagree with ya'll on this. Naughty Dog are perfectionists and visionaries!

Perfectionists, absolutely. Visionaries, no. They largely ape the vocabulary of Hollywood cinema. Kojima's weirdness and lack of conciseness would not be welcome in an Uncharted or a Last of Us.

Regardless, something tells me Kojima isn't interested in joining another company. It's much more likely that Kojima re-establishes KojiPro (or a leaner version of it) as a indie studio.

 

[EvoMaldonado]

It's a business, you want to make a game the best it could be but you have to follow the budget and be creative without being wasteful.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

I think a joint KS/Sony-funded 'Shenmue III lite' is a safe investment. I don't think a Shenmue III in line with the first two games is a safe investment. And I'm sure Sega don't either.

Okay, that's fair enough!

 

[ElTorro]

2- The wisdom and selflessness to be willing to go bankrupt because of Kojima, because it's still worth it, because he is leaving humanity with an infinitely more valuable legacy than average gyms and harmful pachinko machines.

Are you real? They are a company. If they don't make a profit, they go bust. And then they won't make new MGS games for sure.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Bitches at Konami don't have:

1- The balls to invest huge amounts of money while having faith MGS revenue will definitely exceed that and leave them with a tidy immediate profit, and a much larger potential profit thanks to very strong gaming brand among the 15-44 yo male demo.

2- The wisdom and selflessness to be willing to go bankrupt because of Kojima, because it's still worth it, because he is leaving humanity with an infinitely more valuable legacy than average gyms and harmful pachinko machines.

Did you just call Konami's execs bitches because they aren't willing to go bankrupt over a Kojima game? Hundreds losing their jobs is "worth it." Oh my lord...

 

[kiunchbb]

People actually think Kojima would bankrupt the company?

It is not really about going bankrupcy vs firing Kojima, it is more like either making profit vs making even more profit by firing Kojima.

 

[Ryan_MSF]

Did you just call Konami's execs bitches because they aren't willing to go bankrupt over a Kojima game? Hundreds losing their jobs is "worth it." Oh my lord...

Anti-Kojima thread, check.
Crossing Eden post in anti-Kojima thread, check.

Never change GAF.

 

[Matt]

People here really, really seem to overestimate how much MGS sells....

 

[Iced Arcade]

This makes much more sense.


I get that he's a perfectionist and that's good for gamers BUT if he is spending more than what his game takes in then it is really bad business to keep him honestly. and MGS isn't something massive sales wise to justify wasteful spending and time. people need to remember these companies are in it for the profit.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

This makes much more sense.


I get that he's a perfectionist and that's good for gamers BUT if he is spending more than what his game takes in then it is really bad business to keep him honestly. and MGS isn't something massive sales wise to justify wasteful spending and time. people need to remember these companies are in it for the profit.

I seriously doubt he has spent more money than the game will make for them.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

People here really, really seem to overestimate how much MGS sells....

To be fair, it's hard to say anything about sales, because people didn't buy GZ because they felt it was a glorified demo, and the last main title came out in 2008 on single platform. I think it'll be easier to have this sales talk with TPP.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Anti-Kojima thread, check.
Crossing Eden post in anti-Kojima thread, check.

Never change GAF.

1.Not an anti-kojima thread
2.Yes I participate in metal gear threads, no i'm not anti kojima.

One year ago

Kojima may be an awful storyteller but by god he is an absolute genius when it comes to game design and mechanics. Besides one janky contextual animation the gameplay in that video is extremely fluid. Was TPP confirmed to also be 60fps even tho it's on such a humongous scale compared to GZ?

Nice try tho, so what are you doing here exactly?

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

To be fair, it's hard to say anything about sales, because people didn't buy GZ because they felt it was a glorified demo, and the last main title came out in 2008 on single platform. I think it'll be easier to have this sales talk with TPP.

Your forgetting that KojiPro made people buy an HD collection of MGS2 and 3, ZOE 1 and 2 as well as A Metal Gear Legacy collection containing all of the mainline MGS.

Kojima may go over budget, but he makes up for it by selling the game with enhanced features (like an updated version of Street fighter).

 

[Sn4ke_911]

I seriously doubt he has spent more money than the game will make for them.

This game must be one of the most expensive games ever made with all the licensed music, fox engine, development time, tons of merchandise etc.

Maybe pre-order numbers for TPP weren't as high as Konami hoped and that's why it came to that fallout.

To be fair, it's hard to say anything about sales, because people didn't buy GZ because they felt it was a glorified demo, and the last main title came out in 2008 on single platform. I think it'll be easier to have this sales talk with TPP.

I don't think most people really knew what they will get when they bought GZ.

 

[Kindekuma]

People here really, really seem to overestimate how much MGS sells....

MGS4 sold 5 million because it launched really early in the PS3's lifetime when sales were extremely sluggish. Same can be said for Portable Ops and Peace Walker when the PSP sales leveled out. MGSV will sell really well with being on so many platforms and the amount of hype and controversy following the game. 42 million copies for a rather niche series is really damn good.

 

[3dmodeler]

Did you just call Konami's execs bitches because they aren't willing to go bankrupt over a Kojima game? Hundreds losing their jobs is "worth it." Oh my lord...

With Konami shifting to mobile game development, there's a good chance hundreds are going to lose their jobs anyways.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Anti-Kojima thread, check.
Crossing Eden post in anti-Kojima thread, check.

Never change GAF.

Can you at least comment on the actual conversation, please? I'd like to see people address and defend Dr. Kaos' point number two with an actual argument besides "it's sarcasm".

 

[DOWN]

He's their loss leader. He's worth the money because he elevates the whole publisher.

 

[Sanctuary]

He's worth all the money, IMO.

That's easy to say when you aren't running the company. If they aren't profiting much off of his releases, then he's not.

I seriously doubt he has spent more money than the game will make for them.

They cut him off before it could reach that point.

 

[Crossing Eden]

With Konami shifting to mobile game development, there's a good chance hundreds are going to lose their jobs anyways.

Still a better outcome, (as fucked up as that sounds tbh), than an entire company going bankrupt.

 

[A.Romero]

I'm not sure I can believe this testimony (opinion?) but for the sake of argument lets suppose it's real and things actually went down this way.

I fucking love Kojima. Like seriously love him. I consider him not only a game producer/director/writer but a visionary. MGS2 is a master piece in my eyes. The core idea is just... Amazing.

However I also understand Konami from a business point of view.

I seriously doubt Konami would let Kojima go without a motive. There were probably some reasons (good or not, its up for debate) to make this decision. Maybe Kojima had a hard time following orders or meeting development milestones. Maybe the profit generated by the games its just not worth the trouble (Halo, COD and Fifa have sold more than twice the amount during the life of their series). Maybe Kojima just didn't want to make another MGS. It really doesn't matter. I'm sure that if Kojima wanted to stay they could have come to terms.

I'm still not sure Kojima will be able to adapt to the reality of the industry once its out of the shelter of a huge corporation as it is Konami (although I hope so) and it pains me to know that I will never be able to see another MGS quite like the ones that we have gotten so far... That said, I'm grateful to Konami for giving a chance to Kojima originally and having a part in the creation of some of the best gaming the world has ever seen.

Of course I'm grateful to Kojima as well for devoting his life to produce some high quality products that only someone like him can pull off.

So I guess that what I'm trying to say is that everything comes to an end and Kojima's MGS had to end somehow. This reason is as good as any.

 

[lord_lad]

2- The wisdom and selflessness to be willing to go bankrupt because of Kojima, because it's still worth it, because he is leaving humanity with an infinitely more valuable legacy than average gyms and harmful pachinko machines.

Are you for real or are you out of your mind when you wrote this? What are you, 12?

'Selflessness to be willing to go bankrupt..'.................WUT?

Look, i like Kojima games and all and just WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING WHEN YOU WROTE THIS?

 

[Ahasverus]

What happens if he gets to the end of those 3 years and uses up that X million without having a finished product? While I'm sure it's possible to reign him in, I don't know if it's as easy as some people in this thread may think.

He finishes his product but takes a paycut and sanctions after the end of the development cycle. The method should be adjusting the type of game to the budget, not the other way around, specially when we're talking about VERY generous budgets (80M+)

 

[lord_lad]

People here really, really seem to overestimate how much MGS sells....

MGS sells...this much we can agree...

but let's also be honest. It's not exactly doing COD numbers which is what most inspiring game publishers wanted.....

If Kojima really spent a lot of money, then the amount of units needed to be sold will increase as compared to previous MGS to maintain the neccessary margins.

Remember people, this is all just business. It is not just enough to break even, heck it is not just enough to get a 10% profit margin....If the sales volume of MGSV (AKA revenue earned) for the game doesn't reach their internal expectation as correlation to the budget (expenses incurred), then it just isn't a worthy investment for Konami.

I am taking off my gamers' hat and putting on my investor's cap (i am an investor of Nvidia and Facebook in the Tech Industry if you are wondering) when i type this.

Gamers need to be more objective. It's not just about games. It's sometimes about money.

In fact, it's always about money.

 

[3dmodeler]

Still a better outcome, (as fucked up as that sounds tbh), then an entire company going bankrupt.

There's really not enough evidence to suggest that TPP was going to bankrupt the entire company.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Hasn't Kojima always been like this?

Also I can just imagine a Kojima kickstarter project turning into a disaster if he behaves like that

 

[Crossing Eden]

There's really not enough evidence to suggest that TPP was going to bankrupt the entire company.

There really isn't. Which makes the post I responded to even odder.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Boy I hope Kojima announces a studio partnership under Microsoft after he leaves Konami. They are definitely the ones with the money to burn in hopes to righting their ship. And the meltdown in the community...
Ether.

Heh, it would certainly be something else for sure.

Kojima and ND...nah. Once they wrap Uncharted 4, it's TLOU 2 80% chance or the new sci-ip - 20% chance.

I would of said SSM BUT, they laid off all that staff so....

I can see him at Studio Japan.

 

[border]

MGS4 sold 5 million because it launched really early in the PS3's lifetime when sales were extremely sluggish. Same can be said for Portable Ops and Peace Walker when the PSP sales leveled out. MGSV will sell really well with being on so many platforms and the amount of hype and controversy following the game. 42 million copies for a rather niche series is really damn good.

Metal Gear Solid 3 moved only 3.6 million copies in its first 6 months, despite releasing at the height of the PS2's heyday.

I think part of Konami's apprehension here is that the Big Boss/prequel stuff has always generated a lot less interest than the Solid Snake stuff. I am interested to see how MGSV is really going to go over with the people that didn't avidly play or follow Peace Walker. I felt completely disconnected from the story in Ground Zeroes, but thought it was still pretty fun to play.

 

[Matt]

MGS4 sold 5 million because it launched really early in the PS3's lifetime when sales were extremely sluggish. Same can be said for Portable Ops and Peace Walker when the PSP sales leveled out. MGSV will sell really well with being on so many platforms and the amount of hype and controversy following the game. 42 million copies for a rather niche series is really damn good.

Look, I don't know how much Konami has spent on MGSV...but it's clearly a lot, and the idea that it will easily sell enough copies to cover its cost, let alone be a huge profit generator is, I think, premature.

When was the last MGS title that sold great? MGS2 14 years ago?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Wasn't MGS4 one of the most expensive games ever at the time? And for this game, between creating the new engine, licensing pop songs, making all those open world assets, getting Hollywood actors, etc.

Konami aint doing anything like this again after this shit drops

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Your forgetting that KojiPro made people buy an HD collection of MGS2 and 3, ZOE 1 and 2 as well as A Metal Gear Legacy collection containing all of the mainline MGS.

Kojima may go over budget, but he makes up for it by selling the game with enhanced features (like an updated version of Street fighter).

Right, I totally forgot about the HD remasters! I think I forgot about them since they were done by Bluepoint Games.

I don't think most people really knew what they will get when they bought GZ.

Yep, it was a problem of communication I think, it ended up hurting the game. Although I understand where the detractors come from.

Wasn't MGS4 one of the most expensive games ever at the time? And for this game, between creating the new engine, licensing pop songs, making all those open world assets, getting Hollywood actors, etc.

Konami aint doing anything like this again after this shit drops

It was? Where did you read that from? I'm actually curious, since it's not everyday when you read about the budget of big titles, except GTA and others like Destiny.

 

[Johndoey]

Bitches at Konami don't have:

1- The balls to invest huge amounts of money while having faith MGS revenue will definitely exceed that and leave them with a tidy immediate profit, and a much larger potential profit thanks to very strong gaming brand among the 15-44 yo male demo.

2- The wisdom and selflessness to be willing to go bankrupt because of Kojima, because it's still worth it, because he is leaving humanity with an infinitely more valuable legacy than average gyms and harmful pachinko machines.

Haven't they invested in Metal Gear Solid for like twenty years now? Also businesses shouldn't be run off blind faith.

 

[Salaadin]

It was? Where did you read that from? I'm actually curious, since it's not everyday when you read about the budget of big titles, except GTA and others like Destiny.

It was rumoured to cost 60+ million but, iirc, KojiPro denied that number was true.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Will Konami be happy when MGSV becomes their best selling game ever?

 

[TheSeks]

Will Konami be happy when MGSV becomes their best selling game ever?

Better question is: Will Konami use the Fox Engine for anything past MGS5. They're obviously getting out of the games business in bits and pieces and Kojima's major problem for Ground Zeroes AND Phantom Pain was making a sandbox engine (in addition to his attention for details/perfectionism, but mostly building a new engine).

 

[Coffee Dog]

I have no idea why people keep pulling the "hundreds of jobs" card when Konami is the one cancelling games and moving out of the console industry

 

[SneakyStephan]

Konami is going to be dissapointed when they find out that is exactly why people liked to buy his games.

 

[the_batman]

to the outsider, a creator like Kojima's mind may seem jumbled and unorganized, but the ends justify the means.