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Amy Hennig worked 10.5 years of 80+ hour weeks at Naughty Dog, says AAA not worth it

NHale

Member
I'm assuming they mean Sony Santa Monica, who is also ridiculously notorious for deathmarching.

Mind, I don't know how they work in 2016.

Sony Santa Monica was already crunching in the first semester of this year for a game to be released in 2017. They are known to do periods of crunch followed by "normal" period even in early development. It's insane and everyone there even talks about it and about Shannon with some pride which is something that I don't understand.

Just delay it. Seriously gamers need to stop complaining every time a game is delayed and at the same complaining that unlike movies, games are not announced in early development. You can't have it both ways, and of course FY results is what drives some publishers to push their teams to the limit so they can reach their yearly forecasts, but as gamers we also need to do a lot better than constant hate and whining about lazy devs, inability to meet release dates, etc... It's not sustainable and even major publishers like Activision reached that conclusion when they moved COD devs to a 3-year dev cycle.

Crazy how hard Sony had this studio working when the guys up at Polyphony seem to be chilling with endless delays.

This post right here...
 
I worked 50-60 hour weeks for 10 years making 30-36000 a year at a public school that was too cheap to hire extra help or pay me more. I let them do it to me for far too long.

Boo hoo to you and your 150k+ salary.

At least I'm ok now.
 
I'm just imagining it.

How insane must the UC1 crunch have been if it caused 30 people to quit Naughty Dog when regular crunch at Naughty Dog is already a horror story to regular AAA developer.

I've found that they usually all have the phrase "multiple divorces" in common.

I worked 50-60 hour weeks for 10 years making 30-36000 a year at a public school that was too cheap to hire extra help or pay me more. I let them do it to me for far too long.

Boo hoo to you and your 150k+ salary.

At least I'm ok now.

None of what you said makes it right, including your 150k salary guess.
 

Sulik2

Member
The problem with crunch in the games industry is people being willing to work eighty hour works for ten years. Companies will always get away when they can exploit the psychology of creative people who are willing to work those hours. Gamesdevs need a union that can mandate hours to protect these types of people from themselves.
 

Furio53

Member
Yes. this would make a difference. But the publishers will not fund it is my educated guess. Already the cost of developing AAA is way beyond most comfort levels and would push the breakeven point of full-price unit sales to unheard-of heights. Doubling the dev cost is not going to fly.

Most likely yeah, you would see that. Obviously theres no easy fix. Compensating OT would at least force upper management to have a financial penalty to poor planning, leading to properly scoped features and deadlines (pipe dream in our industry lol). That's the idea at least.
 
Most software in other industries have clear definitions on what needs to be done and there's a much clearer path on how to implement it compared to game development.

This really just gives me the impression you aren't really considering the full scope of non-game software development. There's plenty of people working on stuff much more complicated and unpredictable than Microsoft Word knockoffs or iterative tax software. Anyone building operating systems or crafting machine-learning systems or bootstrapping whole new types of virtual infrastructure like they're doing over at Amazon is dealing with problems that are not yet well understood, with requirements that can shift dramatically, with engineering techniques that are adapted to whole new ends or created from whole-cloth.

That's just not true. General software is mainly about function, games are about entertainment and artistry.

This is just the games-specific version of the tech industry special-snowflake argument. Building entertainment software at a AAA scale isn't really that different from anything else: you still need a strong plan with good coordination and clear delineation about who can make what decisions to succeed; you still have a group of target customers to impress, and a process of iterative refinement if you don't meet their needs first time out; you're still building something whose primary purpose for existing is to capture customer revenue and whose creative elements are subsumed into that purpose. It's a field with a pretty high level of variance in interesting problems on the micro level but a very heavily circumscribed scope on the macro level outside the few people lucky enough to work on the really innovative stuff.

Like, are you really gonna tell me that the people sitting down to create the latest annual Call of Duty are going in blind to a process dictated purely by the unpredictable artistic muse? That game is getting scoped out tightly to hit a mandatory deadline, its design is getting driven by a brainstorming process for new market-distinguishing features, and it's getting built by experienced craftspeople who are applying tremendous skill to doing something they've trained to be really good at. It's more like launching a new annual fashion line than writing a novel or building conceptual sculpture for a gallery show.

If you really need a re-affirmation for how far from reality comparing (any)game development is to a standardized pipeline - look no further than the company who's made game-as-a-pipeline a science (Ubisoft), and their games are also by far among the most expensive and problem ridden productions of the industry.

I don't actually think this is a good characterization of Ubisoft. They don't have good centralized base technology, they rely on throwing huge manpower at games in an ad-hoc fashion rather than having clear global capacity planning, and they're one of the worst major publishers in the industry at post-launch support and the service-game model. EA and Activision-Blizzard are way ahead of them on this.
 

Paracelsus

Member
The problem with crunch in the games industry is people being willing to work eighty hour works for ten years. Companies will always get away when they can exploit the psychology of creative people who are willing to work those hours. Gamesdevs need a union that can mandate hours to protect these types of people from themselves.

Why do you talk like it's just a problem with gaming? It's like that absolutely everywhere, from the bottom dog to the top names in the hierarchy. If you let them walk over you, and the one next to you agrees with the practice, it then becomes the norm and it's nearly impossible to fix it, because you have to suppress the conniving "better than nothing" attitude most workers have.
 

Schlorgan

Member
She was the creative director on the Uncharted series as a whole up to UC4. She did WAY more than just writing. I don't understand why people seem to think the only thing she did was writing.

Also, a lot of people don't seem to get the difference between putting out a big game every two years (what she did at ND) versus making a big game over 4-5 years (what she's doing now at EA).
 
Everyone in software development is replaceable, so unionizing would just shift jobs to non-union locations.

On what do you base this? Have you tried hiring senior engineering talent in the software industry? In the games industry?

NB: I think I only did 100 hours once or twice on Spidey 1 and 2. 80 hour weeks were pretty common back then, though, but more like 6-9 months out of two years of dev. Haven't seen crunch like that in a while, though, do support engineering on annualized franchise now, and it would be murder to crunch every year with the studios that are on multi-year rotations.
 

ElNino

Member
Why do you talk like it's just a problem with gaming? It's like that absolutely everywhere, from the bottom dog to the top names in the hierarchy. If you let them walk over you, and the one next to you agrees with the practice, it then becomes the norm and it's nearly impossible to fix it, because you have to suppress the conniving "better than nothing" attitude most workers have.
It's true, unfortunately. Nothing to diminish the issues of the gaming industry though, as it is definitely prevalent there.

My wife works at one of the big accounting firms, and in her 13 years I'd say she has averaged 70+ hours a week, with the worst periods being months of working 90+. Being a professional designation field, she has been exempt from overtime from day one, so you have grads coming out of college working crazy hours with only the promise that it gets better (it doesn't really). It's a big reason why so many stick it out only until they pass the exams to get their designation before leaving for industry where they can work "normal" hours for often better pay in the short term.
 
When you can self publish your own idea on a FAAAAAAAR greater scale then you could 10 years ago, I'm surprised anyone getting into games development would want to spend their time in a long career at one of the AAA sweatfarm developers.
 

Infye

Neo Member
There is a lot of hyperbole here about crunch at Naughty Dog. There are definitely a lot of hours before deadlines, but it isn't the hellscape that is being described. I've seen worse crunch at some studios, and much less crunch at others. But Naughty Dog isn't particularly unique in the industry.

Source: I've been at ND for more than 8 years.
 
When you can self publish your own idea on a FAAAAAAAR greater scale then you could 10 years ago, I'm surprised anyone getting into games development would want to spend their time in a long career at one of the AAA sweatfarm developers.

Going indie typically requires startup capital and either the skills of a generalist or a group of fellow fools to travel with you. If you're good at one specific valuable skill you can be a great contributor at an established company.
 
When you can self publish your own idea on a FAAAAAAAR greater scale then you could 10 years ago, I'm surprised anyone getting into games development would want to spend their time in a long career at one of the AAA sweatfarm developers.

Reasons are pretty much the same for why people choose to not be entrepreneurs in other fields. Job security, benefits, stability etc.

And it's not like your work load will decrease if you choose to become an entrepreneur.
 
When you can self publish your own idea on a FAAAAAAAR greater scale then you could 10 years ago, I'm surprised anyone getting into games development would want to spend their time in a long career at one of the AAA sweatfarm developers.
mmm, let me thin... oh yeah... MONEY
 

legend166

Member
Someone missed their kid growing up and divorced their wife si they could make sure the physics of the half-tuck were accurate.

What a disaster.

I feel incredibly sorry for these people. What a terrible way to live. But they can't shirk all the blame.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
In all my time in AAA the only time I got compensated for the insane amounts of overtime was getting a small portion of Christmas vacation I worked as unpaid overtime as comp time.

Trust me, the budgets do not cover paid overtime. At least in any of the studios I worked for, and I worked for many of the Big Boys.

Are you saying you didn't get paid for those extra hours AT ALL, or just that you didn't get additional compensation over what you'd normally get for an hour? Because fuck working for free. Really, that's absurd. So I hope that's not what you meant.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
There is a lot of hyperbole here about crunch at Naughty Dog. There are definitely a lot of hours before deadlines, but it isn't the hellscape that is being described. I've seen worse crunch at some studios, and much less crunch at others. But Naughty Dog isn't particularly unique in the industry.

Source: I've been at ND for more than 8 years.

So you're saying the whole industry is fucked and will suck the life out of you, not just ND. Great!
 
This kind of thing is why I don't get all up in arms calling for scalps when a game gets delayed. I'd rather have a game a year late than ruin a group of people's lives for a period of time while they're forced to crunch and shit the thing out.

My exact feelings. It's also why I morally can't grill into game and rather just pass on it than to go on witch hunts to make the so called developer pay for whatever situation it is. The life of AAA is a luxury for us who buy them, but it isn't for the lives who make them. Sad..
 
Are you saying you didn't get paid for those extra hours AT ALL, or just that you didn't get additional compensation over what you'd normally get for an hour? Because fuck working for free. Really, that's absurd. So I hope that's not what you meant.

All depends on state laws but ND is in California? Then software engineers/creative types are exempt, no overtime pay at all
 

The_Spaniard

Netmarble
I've been fairly lucky over the years in this industry and haven't had to do too much "crunch". Though what sucked was working for a company where I was salaried and expected, as a general unspoken rule, to put in 10-12 hour days every day because it's just what you do. If you tried to leave on time you'd get the hairy eyeball or get shit-talked about behind your back. It was a great(awful) way to drive down already low salaries and get free work out of employees. I have noticed that salary laws are generally not properly enforced at a number of companies and they like to take a huge illegal advantage.

The worst as far as crunch was concerned was having to work a few 17 hour days here and there, but for the most part I've been lucky and crunch at companies I've worked has been well managed and minimal.
 
I can't imagine myself with this lifestyle, that's fucking ridiculous and nobody should have to do that.
What kind of life is this? When do they see their kids?
Nothing could stop me from seeing my son growing up, if I don't what's the fucking point?
 

legend166

Member
This is the design industry in general, sadly. Don't like it? Go be something fulfilling like a banker or janitor.

I'd rather be a janitor with a healthy marriage and family than a game dev earning $120k for 80 hours a week.

Work idolization is gross.
 

Longsword

Member
Are you saying you didn't get paid for those extra hours AT ALL, or just that you didn't get additional compensation over what you'd normally get for an hour? Because fuck working for free. Really, that's absurd. So I hope that's not what you meant.

I've worked for 6 AAA Studios in total, and not once did I get a cent of money for any of the extra hours. You get your monthly wage, and if you are lucky, a bit of comp time.

Others from AAA industry can tell us if their experiences differ (law is different in some countries like Sweden), but since I've worked for most of the Big Players, I sincerely doubt their experience is any different. I've never remember hearing anyone in the games industry getting paid overtime. Perhaps there are exceptions.

And as it stands now with the mainly razor-thin profit margins for AAA, I do not see much chance of this changing.
 

Toparaman

Banned
I don't get why so many folks in this thread are putting the blame on gamers. For all the bitching that gamers do online, they rarely choose not to buy a game simply because it came out a year or two (or three) later. We're not pushing these overtime-all-the-time standards on developers; the industry is. And I think the only way it's going to change is if developers unionize, go on strike, or something similar.

Oh, and I'll also add: if having a AAA game's development go longer translates to having to pay a couple dollars more for a game, I'm fine with that. I think AAA games are actually surprisingly cheap considering how expensive they are to make, how astonishingly good they look these days, and how many hours I tend to get out of them.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Are you saying you didn't get paid for those extra hours AT ALL, or just that you didn't get additional compensation over what you'd normally get for an hour? Because fuck working for free. Really, that's absurd. So I hope that's not what you meant.

Has to do with the overtime laws and if your position is considered exempt (salaried) or not (hourly).
 
Your self righteous attitude, looking down upon people who would choose to work 80 hours a week helps nobody.

Very few people in that situation would agree with the contention that they "choose" to work 80 hour weeks (as opposed to being stuck doing that because of other choices they've made), and people who would should indeed be castigated for the way their own choices affect their coworkers and other people in their industry.
 

Falchion

Member
I think the overall product also suffers when developers have to sacrifice so much time to finish it. It's good for them to have time to go home and be creatively refreshed.
 

Noirulus

Member
I worked 50-60 hour weeks for 10 years making 30-36000 a year at a public school that was too cheap to hire extra help or pay me more. I let them do it to me for far too long.

Boo hoo to you and your 150k+ salary.

At least I'm ok now.

That sucks, but don't be a jealous bitch.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Gee that actually sucks. I am studying Computer science right now and I always left the door open for game development, but this all sounds really bad :/

That said, I am more concerned about the average worker who goes through this than Hennig herself because if we are to believe she is the auteur behind the Uncharted series, then being the "artist" of the work and a visionary of that calibre would be akin to a film director or something. Obviously a role like that will require a lot of dedication from the person on top... like I am pretty sure novelists and movie directors have to go through the same sort of work schedule, if not worse. But the average worker shouldn't have to go through this, that is insane.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
To all the people in this thread saying they pay more / want to pay more for their AAA games out of support for the devs, you're doing it horribly wrong.
 
No crunch time. Please.

It hurts. Really hurts the mind and body. It needs to fucking stop.

Edit* to add, I do believe crunch time is needed to beat deadline. There is however a tipping point between going over too long which happens way too much.
 

KahooTs

Member
"I mean, Uncharted 1; a ten-hour game, no other modes... you can't make a game like that any more."

Wolfenstein. DOOM has multiplayer, outsourced, but no-one gives a shit about it and I suggest it had nothing to do with its success. Bioshock and Infinite. Critically acclaimed, commercially successful.
 

Condom

Member
Relatively new sectors like application/game development need unions asap, the stories that keep coming out of those fields are very worrying.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Wolfenstein. DOOM has multiplayer, outsourced, but no-one gives a shit about it and I suggest it had nothing to do with its success. Bioshock and Infinite. Critically acclaimed, commercially successful.

I don't think most AAA companies aspire to the sales of Doom and Wolfenstein.
 
No crunch time. Please.

It hurts. Really hurts the mind and body. It needs to fucking stop.

Edit* to add, I do believe crunch time is needed to beat deadline. There is however a tipping point between going over too long which happens way too much.
I wouldn't say crunch time per se is the problem. The problem is silly deadlines making them a necessity to finish bloated games as opposed to a last resort.
 
Gee that actually sucks. I am studying Computer science right now and I always left the door open for game development, but this all sounds really bad :/

That said, I am more concerned about the average worker who goes through this than Hennig herself because if we are to believe she is the auteur behind the Uncharted series, then being the "artist" of the work and a visionary of that calibre would be akin to a film director or something. Obviously a role like that will require a lot of dedication from the person on top... like I am pretty sure novelists and movie directors have to go through the same sort of work schedule, if not worse. But the average worker shouldn't have to go through this, that is insane.

Just don't work in the game industry, it's the smart choice. Work somewhere where they will value you and pay you accordingly. Many, many other creative places to work where they don't treat you like cattle and where a lesser number of your peers aren't self-immolating tryhards who think they're the next Van Gough (while implementing a design vision from a team of producers).
 
I think I'm going to try and listen to the podcast tomorrow. Just out of curiosity, does Soren go into his own experience in development? It'd be interesting to me if he contrasted Hennig's experience with stuff like Uncharted with his own being lead designer on something like Civ IV.
 

Ranger X

Member
I think a major problem in this industry is that people whore their jobs. That is too much of a dream life position to be for many people. NO EMPLOYEE OF ANY FIELD should pass or accept such deadlines over their health and family. No one. There's no good reason, just illusion.

Its the work culture that must change in this industry. If all employees would refuse to overtime, deadlines would be pushed back. The publisher cannot cancel the game, or indefinitely give to the project to another team! So if people would hold together and REFUSE such work culture --- it would suddenly disappear.
 
Going indie typically requires startup capital and either the skills of a generalist or a group of fellow fools to travel with you. If you're good at one specific valuable skill you can be a great contributor at an established company.

Well crowd funding seems to have taken off as a way to get the capital you need to start up. I think Job security in a game publisher is overstated. As soon as a game is finished you can be cut with hundred others and be waiting to get another stop for months.

It's still far more possible for a small team or even on person to accomplish a self publish than ever before.


Games used to want to be CliffyB. It takes years and years and some serious hell but you can eventually rise up and become a designer and guide the idea. You can also kickstart and deisgn your own idea without a long hard career in a single company.

It feels like no one wants to be CliffyB anymore, they all want to be Notch.
 
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