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Does Nintendo's lack of western support stem from a lack of awareness?

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Everyone seems to assume that the lack of support of Nintendo hardware from western game companies is due to some bad relationships along with Nintendo's recent hardware itself. I've started to wonder if it's in fact from a lack of any relationships at all. Just look at how many important developers today have had almost zero interaction with Nintendo throughout their history.

When it comes to Nintendo and third party people seem to think back to the transition from SNES to N64 where people jumped ship to Sony as sort of the origin of all the problems. When you look at the developers and publishers involved at the time though -- Square, Capcom, Konami, Namco, etc., they more or less patched things up with Nintendo during the Gamecube era. They don't ignore Nintendo completely like many western companies do.

On the flipside, look at the companies who are completely ignoring Nintendo. A lot of them weren't even making console games in the middle of the 90's. Many of them only stepped into the console space within the last decade and they primarily did so under Microsoft's wing.

From what I can gather from looking at game libraries on Wiki:

Epic has never shipped a game for Nintendo hardwware.

BioWare has never shipped a game for Nintendo hardware (excluding the outsourced Mass Effect 3 port).

Since Body Harvest and Space Station Silicon Valley on the N64, Rockstar has only done a handful of Wii ports.

2K Games has only ever done a handful of Wii ports.

Irrational has never shipped a game for Nintendo hardware.

Criterion has only shipped Burnout, Burnout 2, and Most Wanted on Nintendo consoles.

Bethesda developed a couple NES games, but hasn't shipped anything on Nintendo hardware since.

The Cave is the first game Tim Schaefer has ever released on Nintendo hardware.


To me this looks like an entire world of game developers and publishers that has never had to interact with Nintendo. They weren't in the console games business at any time when Nintendo was dominant in it. So, of course they see no reason to interact with Nintendo now.

The only western companies to seem to even think about trying to support Nintendo in any fashion are the big guys who actually have been in the console business since before Nintendo's fall from its throne. Guys like EA, Ubisoft, and Activision still have those relationships and honor them in some capacity as a matter of course. The smaller western guys who used to sort of round out Nintendo's western support: companies like Midway, Acclaim, and THQ, basically no longer exist.

In light of this, I'd conclude that the fault is probably Nintendo's for not explicitly reaching out to all those "new" game companies and finding out what they want, or at least trying to sell them on the Nintendo vision. However, I also wonder if the problem is just lack of awareness. Are the real decision-makers at Nintendo like Iwata even really ware of Schaefer, Irrational, Bethesda, Bioware, Epic, and any of their games? It's a known issue how the current console generation caught Japan by surprise with the aforementioned developers grabbing the console market away from Japan, but has Nintendo shown any indication of addressing this problem?

Meanwhile, you've got Nintendo building all kinds of bridges with the big Japanese publishers. On Iwata Asks you can see that the main is clearly aware games third parties were making on PlayStation going all the way back to the PS1. They're getting in fairly deep with these guys. However, have you heard Iwata or anyone else from NCL make any indication that they are even aware of Unreal Engine, CryEngine, and Frostbite?

Basically, has there been ANY communication at all between Nintendo and the world of western console game development that has appeared in the last decade?

I mean, Reggie almost definitely knows this stuff, but how much can he do really? How much control does he really have over Nintendo's communications with third parties? Should NoA and NoE simply have more autonomy in that area?

tl;dr: It's not that western developers are abandoning Nintendo, but that a lot of the most important ones today have never done anything with Nintendo, and Nintendo doesn't seem to be doing anything about that. Are the guys at NCL just not aware they exist?
 

Xbudz

Member
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JazzmanZ

Member
They have some western support but not the majority, unfortunately most of the big names will always go for the console with the best processing and specs.
 

Dysun

Member
Nintendo has ignored third parties and let them build their business models elsewhere, it's now time to reap what you sow
 
They have some western support but not the majority, unfortunately most of the big names will always go for the console with the best processing and specs.

Didn't you forget sales prospects? They haven't been the best on Nintendo consoles for a while now, no matter the HW penetration.

/for third party devs that is
 
They have some western support but not the majority, unfortunately most of the big names will always go for the console with the best processing and specs.

All those developers the OP listed go where the hardcore, 18-35 Males audience is.

For the past two generations, that audience has largely abandoned Nintendo.

Naturally, so do those developers.
 

Cronq

Banned
Not supporting the Wii U and jumping on the PS4 hype train is the cool thing to do now days.

Not working on anything Wii U related just isn't fun unless you talk shit about it.
 

mantidor

Member
It's a mixture of Nintendo never being cool for them and Nintendo indeed not caring, I guess they see it would be too much effort to cater to the so called "hardcore" developers and not enough benefit.
 

Somnid

Member
A lot of it is cultural. Most of these would fancy themselves programming/engineering/software companies and this is typically how I'd imagine most western game companies see themselves. They probably value programming chops more than any other skill and I'd imagine much of their internal interest is on utilizing raw power (CPU, RAM etc.) Nintendo and several Japanese companies would probably describe themselves as design companies and probably lean heavier on those assets. To them I'd imagine functional and artistic design aligns more with their internal interests. Note that Nintendo is the most successful game company ever, they build for themselves first and that makes a lot of sense. I don't think that naturally matches up with what others might want but it also doesn't make a lot of sense to cater away from your strengths.
 
Might be that Nintendo has a arcade/console type philosophy, to their games and consoles, and a lot of the developers that ignore them come from a pc background. I don't mind and think Nintendo should distance themselves even farther from them.
 

Jamix012

Member
Didn't you forget sales prospects? They haven't been the best on Nintendo consoles for a while now, no matter the HW penetration.

/for third party devs that is

Yeah but it's a question of chicken and egg. Do 3rd parties do badly on Nintendo consoles because they haven't made the effort to build a base on that console or did Nintendo make a hostile 3rd party envioronment on their consoles in the first place?
 

pixlexic

Banned
Didn't you forget sales prospects? They haven't been the best on Nintendo consoles for a while now, no matter the HW penetration.

/for third party devs that is

Nintendo made games are some of the Hughes selling games of last gen.

Mk willbrokt the 25 million mark in a single platform.

That is there downfall. It makes them arrogant.
 
Might be that Nintendo has a arcade/console type philosophy, to their games and consoles, and a lot of the developers that ignore them come from a pc background. I don't mind and think Nintendo should distance themselves even farther from them.

I agree with this one, and think this was one of the same problems SEGA ran into late in their console careers.
 

Neff

Member
It stems from not giving a shit because their market share thrives on games that are universally enjoyable, something the West isn't too great at outside of casual games.

Might be that Nintendo has a arcade/console type philosophy, to their games and consoles, and a lot of the developers that ignore them come from a pc background. I don't mind and think Nintendo should distance themselves even farther from them.

This too.
 
Nintendo has ignored third parties and let them build their business models elsewhere, it's now time to reap what you sow

I think this is the right answer and why the Wii had such poor third party support as well. Since most people associate Nintendo consoles with Nintendo hardware I think the company see third parties as competitors rather than partners.

Just a theory but I don't think that Nintendo courts the big players like Sony and MS do so those players don't bother (maybe Nintendo charges more in fees or gives less support?).
 

Bgamer90

Banned
I think this is accurate for a lot of western devs:

"Why should we support this console when...

1. It's not as powerful as the consoles we could do/add much more on.

2. Based on sales of games of the same genre, the audience that plays consoles from this company usually aren't interested in the games we make.

3. The system is lacking in its online features/community... causing the time we put into huge online features to probably go to waste.

(and)

4. The system has a poor attach rate overall at the moment."

It's just a bad spot overall for the Wii U. Fortunately though, the system will have new Nintendo games. If it didn't then man... the system would pretty much be DOA.
 
The OP makes a lot of good points, yeah. Nintendo put serious effort into building Western relationships in the mid '90s, with the N64. Rememebr the "Dream Team" of almost all Western studios. It wasn't quite a "dream team", certainly, but it was a bunch of studios that did end up releasing good numbers of N64 games. Nintendo had some success with that startegy -- remember that 2/3rds of N64 and 2/3rds of GC sales were in North America, but wanted more success at home too, so over the course of the Gamecube generation gradually abandoned that in favor of the current, and continuing, focus on building Japanese relationships.

Now, Nintendo might have never had a chance of matching Microsoft with developers like those listed in the OP, but they didn't even try, not really, and still aren't. They seem to have just given up and gone back to their focus on Japanese studios. But as you say, the problem is that Western studios are more popular than ever now, and that's not cutting it enough... but it's been so long since Nintendo put any effort into building Western developments that they seem to have forgotten that they ever even tried.

But yes, they really should. It's important if they want to continue to be relevant outside of Japanese development circles.

Might be that Nintendo has a arcade/console type philosophy, to their games and consoles, and a lot of the developers that ignore them come from a pc background. I don't mind and think Nintendo should distance themselves even farther from them.
There's some truth to that, but they did used to get some developers from computer backgrounds, such as Rare or Factor 5... but yeah others that were big Nintendo supporters like Acclaim and Midway came from arcade/console backgrounds.
 

Schnozberry

Member
It stems from not giving a shit because their market share thrives on games that are universally enjoyable, something the West isn't too great at outside of casual games.
This too.

If your game doesn't revolve around satisfying the violent hypersexualized fantasies of males between the ages of 18-35, the western game industry couldn't give a fuck less about you.
 

Kuroyume

Banned
I wonder if things would have gradually improved from the Gamecube onward if the Wii hadn't disrupted things with motion control and a poor online service.
 

CrunchyB

Member
If Nintendo cared about western support they would have made a console ps4/720 spec wise.

Things aren't that simple. They tried it with the Gamecube and it was their worst effort. Granted, things were different back then with the PS2 crushing everything in it's path.

They tried going their own way with the Wii and DS and the original Gameboy before that and all were huge hits. Dismissing that strategy completely is silly and premature.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Might be that Nintendo has a arcade/console type philosophy, to their games and consoles, and a lot of the developers that ignore them come from a pc background. I don't mind and think Nintendo should distance themselves even farther from them.

That's really the issue behind the whole problem with the Japanese industry. Sony responded by basically letting Americans take control of the PlayStation program. Nintendo seems to have not responded at all.
 
Things aren't that simple. They tried it with the Gamecube and it was their worst effort. Granted, things were different back then with the PS2 crushing everything in it's path.

They tried going their own way with the Wii and DS and the original Gameboy before that and all were huge hits. Dismissing that strategy completely is silly and premature.
Of course its not that simple. Its even simpler, they dont care at all. If they truly did the console would be higher specs.
 
Nintendo's developmental philosophies completely differ than the typical Western philosophies, so most of their problems with Western support stem from that.

Not sure if this will hurt the Wii U, but we'll see. The poor sales of the Wii U isn't a result of lack of Western support, though, that's for sure, especially since the Wii U launched with a shit ton of Western games.
 
That's really the issue behind the whole problem with the Japanese industry. Sony responded by basically letting Americans take control of the PlayStation program. Nintendo seems to have not responded at all.

No, Nintendo did respond to it. They responded by going in the opposite direction and releasing the Wii. That strategy worked at first, but now that it's faltering, will they change? We'll see... but no signs so far.
 

Kimawolf

Member
The issue is developers/publishers in the west simply see Nintendo’s design philosophy and overall strategy as a threat to their game design philosophy which is to push tech as hard as possible with as much crap on screen as possible, and then build gameplay around it second and as such makes no sense to want to develop for them. Nintendo has always had the philosophy of building games to be fun and with enjoyable gameplay first, even the “mature” and adult ones.

Publishers like EA, and Take Two for instance are virtually all in on the “westernized hyper sexualized/”realistic violence” aspect of western gaming, and to them Nintendo is a direct threat to that.

And also gamers in the west only view mature as overly violent, sexual and “Dark” for no reason. Nintendo doesn’t make those kinds of games. And its obvious, they hate to compete with Nintendo games as well.
 

Schnozberry

Member
Of course its not that simple. Its even simpler, they dont care at all. If they truly did the console would be higher specs.

Have you considered that they are a much smaller company than the behemoths that Sony and Microsoft are, and can't afford to lose money on hardware for several years in order to buy market share?

I suppose it's much easier to just assume that they don't care.
 

serplux

Member
That's really the issue behind the whole problem with the Japanese industry. Sony responded by basically letting Americans take control of the PlayStation program. Nintendo seems to have not responded at all.

I don't want Nintendo to become a Western-first company like Sony (although I question if that is even possible), but Nintendo needs one major first-party subsidiary that is capable of spewing out multiple games a year intended for a Western audience.
 

fernoca

Member
I think one of the reasons, is that most of those developers rely on either bigger publishers or receiving funds from console manufacturers in order to make those games. Gears on Xbox 360, Unreal Tournament a timed exclusive on PS3 released through Midway, etc.

Nintendo has been well known to just not throw money for the sake of building relationships (with a few exceptions, like with Bayonetta 2, but they had some work done and a good relationship with Sega and Platinum). The way the work is basically, you have an idea, you pitch it to them, they like it, they help you (send people, money, etc.) Sony and Microsoft usually do the opposite: they give the money, and then you make whatever you want...as long as you make something. Remember Steel Batallion on Xbox? The huge controller and the game were the result of that. Mikami always wanted to make a game like that, lacked the money, Microsoft gave him/Capcom money, and he made it.

Compared to, for example..Vicarious Visions. They had an idea for Guitar Hero on DS, worked on it, pitched it to Activision, and then to Nintendo. It was then, that Nintendo gave them full support which not only translated into official bundles, but the game selling over a million copies.

Now, some of the relationships may be sour. I remember some talk about how Take-Two was originally part of the "Nintendo Dream Team durig the Nintendo 64, things went bad, which is why Grand Theft Auto went to PlayStation and Xbox mostly later (and why the Game Boy and Ninteno DS games has been outsourced).

EA is well known for been all peachy and lvoely when there are sales (Rock Band Wii, Tiger Woords), but when sales start to go down, they bail out. Yet, Free Radical and even Criterion liked Nintendo, the only reason they stopped making games for them was because of EA. Now, some cases like the West/Zampella Infinity Ward just not wanting to make Modern Warfare on Wii, but how Treyarch ended porting 2 of the 3 MW games? Becuase their publisher told them to.

Publishers in the end has the last say, and as long as Nintendo doesn't throw money at them things will continue been the same. It sucks that deveopers are the ones that are in the middle, since when sales go down publishers close/sell them with no problems. They may like Nintendo, but if they're not asked to make a Nintendo-version they won't. Or if they do but are only given a low budget and few resources, there's not much they can do.
 
Nintendo historically has been, for the most part, pretty hostile towards third parties.

nowadays its probably more about the demographics nintendo appeals to.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Don't the problems in the OP stem, at a root level, from Japan losing general relevance in console space in generation 7?

Nintendo is the most Japanese of Japanese companies in a lot of ways. It makes sense they'd be hurt by it. Especially when combined with their previous issues as spawned by the N64 generation.
 
It´s simple really. Sony and MS have different demographics/target audience than Nintendo. Most of these developers develop their games for males between 15-30 years old. That demographic does not belong to Nintendo.
 

18-Volt

Member
Most of them PC originated developers and Nintendo is the last place they could work on. Nintendo doesn't care, they are Japanese, they only care what happens in their country like not releasing Mother 3.

What Nintendo needs is a new golden team. Only Ubisoft survived their previous golden team (others being THQ, Acclaim and Midway) and it seems they got only Ubisoft's support right now. They should get close some of today's developers and take them as 2nd party developers. Most of them will refuse, because of you know, bad graphix. I don't know what agreement tactics they used on some of Japanese developers like Level-5 and Atlus but it worked. They should do the same with American developers.

It´s simple really. Sony and MS have different demographics/target audience than Nintendo. Most of these developers develop their games for males between 15-30 years old. That demographic does not belong to Nintendo.

It did when N64 and GCN were around. They could easily get their demographic back when there are some big (I mean very big) hardcore titles. Something even bigger than GCN's Eternal Darkness and N64's Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.
 

Schnozberry

Member
Don't the problems in the OP stem, at a root level, from Japan losing general relevance in console space in generation 7?

Nintendo is the most Japanese of Japanese companies in a lot of ways. It makes sense they'd be hurt by it. Especially when combined with their previous issues as spawned by the N64 generation.

Japanese gamers favoring handhelds to consoles can't be understated either.

That being said, once a NFC enabled Pokémon Card Game and corresponding Wii U game get released, I think Nintendo will change it's fortunes.
 

jmizzal

Member
I don't want Nintendo to become a Western-first company like Sony (although I question if that is even possible), but Nintendo needs one major first-party subsidiary that is capable of spewing out multiple games a year intended for a Western audience.

This I agree with
 
Nintendo simply doesn't care.

A lot of people on here seem to prefer to make Nintendo out as some blundering, oblivious company who was caught off guard by the apparent lack of western support recently. Nintendo has been in the game (pun intended) for 30+ years, and having observed the industry in all its phases for that long they are fully cognizant of the proclivities of their western peers. Nintendo understands they want bigger and faster, and it is within Nintendo's ability to give it to them. They just don't. Because they don't care.
 

Schnozberry

Member
They could easily get their demographic back when there are some big (I mean very big) hardcore titles. Something even bigger than GCN's Eternal Darkness and N64's Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.

Just curious, but how many people do you think would pick up a Wii U if Retro was in the process of developing an online multiplayer FPS game based in the Metroid Universe?
 
Have you considered that they are a much smaller company than the behemoths that Sony and Microsoft are, and can't afford to lose money on hardware for several years in order to buy market share?

I suppose it's much easier to just assume that they don't care.
I have. Yes they cant afford it like MS and Sony. Are they supposed to lose sleep over it? No. They make their hardware to benefit their software. Their IPs are better than most anyways. Whats a battlefield to a Mario?
 
Nintendo simply doesn't care.

A lot of people on here seem to prefer to make Nintendo out as some blundering, oblivious company who was caught off guard by the apparent lack of western support recently. Nintendo has been in the game (pun intended) for 30+ years, and having observed the industry in all its phases for that long they are fully cognizant of the proclivities of their western peers. Nintendo understands they want bigger and faster, and it is within Nintendo's ability to give it to them. They just don't. Because they don't care.

Nintendo doesn't care because of their successes with the Wii and the DS.

Both of Nintendo's consoles were quite significantly handicapped compared to their competitors. But guess what? They ended up being Nintendo's best selling consoles of all time.

It's extremely hard, if you're a Nintendo executive, to consider pursuing any strategy that doesn't attempt to mimic your predecessor's rampant successes. It really does seem like the most profitable venture.
 

18-Volt

Member
Just curious, but how many people do you think would pick up a Wii U if Retro was in the process of developing an online multiplayer FPS game based in the Metroid Universe?

Not much but if they're working on something brand new like Activison's Destiny, many people could get interested. Of course, they need to do an epic reveal to hype up the game.
 

Coolwhip

Banned
Nintendo simply doesn't care.

A lot of people on here seem to prefer to make Nintendo out as some blundering, oblivious company who was caught off guard by the apparent lack of western support recently. Nintendo has been in the game (pun intended) for 30+ years, and having observed the industry in all its phases for that long they are fully cognizant of the proclivities of their western peers. Nintendo understands they want bigger and faster, and it is within Nintendo's ability to give it to them. They just don't. Because they don't care.

And the funny thing is, even if Wii U had 100% 3rd party support right now. Everything would have been the same. The sales of Wii U wouldn't have been much higher. People interested in COD, Uncharted, Halo, Mass Effect and so on are typically not interested in Nintendo games. So I never got the whole drama over lack of 3rd party support. Sony and MS did everything in their power (and made huge losses doing so) to get 3rd parties on their platforms. They succeeded, but to me the question is still, what was their gain? They aren't making money, the console market is a dead end street, so what was the point?
 
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