While Sony isn't selling the PS division... Both the purchase of Gaikai and the creation of the Vita TV are bad signs if you are a typical console owner. Sony is getting in on the ground floor of both game streaming services and microconsoles, both of which have the potential to make console gaming irrelevant. While Sony might be keeping the PlayStation brand around, it's obvious that they see a possible future of gaming that does not revolve around $400 boxes and is hedging their bets with both Gaikai and Vita TV in case streaming services or microconsoles take off. Look at Valve, they see the current state of the PC Market and are currently hedging their bets as well. Nintendo, while not hedging their bets, have pretty much knocked the Vita out of the running and have consolidated the dedicated handheld market and is in a pretty good position for jumping onto the microconsole market using the 3DS hardware..
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Microsoft Investor Wants To Fire Ballmer And Sell Xbox Division
- Thread starter Syphon Filter
- Start date
While Sony isn't selling the PS division... Both the purchase of Gaikai and the creation of the Vita TV are bad signs if you are a typical console owner. Sony is getting in on the ground floor of both game streaming services and microconsoles, both of which have the potential to make console gaming irrelevant. While Sony might be keeping the PlayStation brand around, it's obvious that they see a possible future of gaming that does not revolve around $400 boxes and is hedging their bets with both Gaikai and Vita TV in case streaming services or microconsoles take off. Look at Valve, they see the current state of the PC Market and are currently hedging their bets as well. Nintendo, while not hedging their bets, have pretty much knocked the Vita out of the running and have consolidated the dedicated handheld market and is in a pretty good position for jumping onto the microconsole market using the 3DS hardware..
They were, now they are giving out free games with every console all over europe. Before they said they were about break even, maybe marginal profitable (this is largely debateable, because they probably don't include packaging/shipping etc in the costs)
Including a $60 game (which people will say it is free! It's a first party game) probably is making them take a loss (Making the first party games is not free). This will be temporary considering it is just for the launch console(s); I would not go as far to say they are profitable day one however.
You don't believe the quick and massive adoption of Android scares the shit out of MS in a devices and services world?
I don't understand this sentiment. What's bad about having your games and other entertainment with you on any device?
Bad signs? They are great signs. What developer would turn down the ability to produce games that are playable on EVERY platform through a "PSN Gaikai" app? They will still be games created for the PS4; all that means is the hardware is not required to play them. If anything this will increase the audience of the games.... meaning the publishers will have a much larger audience to work with. Gaikai is starting with PS4 anyway.... they never announced for how long. They won't expand to devices outside of the Playstation Ecosystem (PS3/Vita) for a long time, likely until the service itself matures. This could easily be 6-10 years.
Most people believe this is the last generation of consoles. That is entirely possible; However I believe devices like the PS4 will still exist.... but be much more than strictly a games console;
Paco - Google is the monster here... my Google stock is worth a LOT, and I only expect it to go up. They've tried several times to displace Windows with no luck, which is surprising given how cheap Google laptops are.
But yes, in the future I doubt there will be any PC's left... everything will be laptop minimum, and tablets will have the majority of the market.
But yes, in the future I doubt there will be any PC's left... everything will be laptop minimum, and tablets will have the majority of the market.
Not with RT being avoided like the plague.....
ChosenPredator
Banned
i feel like we hear these doom scenarios for all three consoles for years now, ill believe it when i see it..and the big three need to be around this competition is healthy..unless google/samsung/apple decide to come in and play
We all know that SEGA will buy the XBOX devision, rebrand the system Dreamcast 4 develop Shenmue 3 in 1080p, put Seaman X in every box with Kinect support, Crimson Dragon will take back the Panzer name ans well see a an RPG with every Sega, Rare and MS ip in it.
A man can dream can't he.....
A man can dream can't he.....
miDnIghtEr20C
Banned
Because I don't think MS a USA company will kill off it's Xbox. A USA console. It's the best selling console here in the US.
It doesn't make sense.
Really? Because I see Sony this gen focusing hard on the US of A. Sorry Japan... Sorry Europe. But Sony is gunning for the USA first and foremost. Do the other countries matter? Of course. But is USA the most important to be "hot" in? I'd say yes.
badcrumble
Member
Again, dollars are what matter, not the geographic specificity of the USA.
Furthermore, it's starting to look like the Xbox One will not, in fact, be the best-selling console in the US. If it performs poorly, it'll be very tempting for activist investors to advocate for cutting it off rather than throwing good money after bad.
Your GGL stock is worth a lot because of their advertising business today (was it something like $40B+, 98% of their revenue?), a business which will continue ensuring they can stay in any game in which they're interested playing long term, in addition to experimenting. They iterate pretty fast -- faster than Microsoft.
With the decline of the PC and the rise in tablet/mobile, I just don't see how Microsoft survives in the OS and business productivity markets without a strong consumer market. The more Google and Apple OS are used by consumers the more standard they become in the IT world and the more they will mature into serious contenders, which means Windows and Windows apps become easier to replace.
Neuro
Member
So we are heading back to the days of PS vs Nintendo eh and PC being a dominant player in the gaming market, how quaint but seriously if this is true, this is the most regressive thing I have heard...
All companies are racing towards living room dominance and Microsoft is taking steps in the right direction (after they retracted all the previous statements), If true this is a bad for the industry as a whole.
I think there would be other players who might lap up the division (Samsung? Apple?) to make it more profitable than it already is...but their stock prices are going to tumble if this happens...
All companies are racing towards living room dominance and Microsoft is taking steps in the right direction (after they retracted all the previous statements), If true this is a bad for the industry as a whole.
I think there would be other players who might lap up the division (Samsung? Apple?) to make it more profitable than it already is...but their stock prices are going to tumble if this happens...
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Why buy a $400 box, when you can play the same exact set of games on $100 hardware with a Gaikai subscription for pennies a day?
This clearly won't happen tomorrow, but in the event that something like the PS5 or PS6 doesn't live up to sales projections, they might move the entire Playstation brand/new first party content/services exclusively through a Gaikai subscription service on any hardware capable, including the VitaTV, which is a extremely cheap and portable alternative.
And I love this idea. Just SMH at any concern over it.
Then what is? Xbox has carried the old E&D division into profitability by itself and that division was full of hardware and software flops.
Microsoft is a hardware and services company now. You can't have that without hardware and services. There are a long list of things that would be dumped long before Xbox: Bing (losing billions since it's inception), Surface, and Windows Phone.
All of those products could be #2 in their respective markets and Microsoft would be doing fine. I'm not worried about Xbox One, the competition in the console space is much weaker than it was in 2005. It's essentially a two way race. If Microsoft was a comfortable #2 behind Sony just like Apple is in a comfortable #2 behind Google, then I think they'll be a happy camper. They'll make money on day one with the Xbox One.
Paco - that is why MS must change. If they can make a name for themselves in the services arena they can survive the coming changes in the market place. If they don't they become irrelevant. In the long run, tablets will own the PC space - it's just a matter of when, and in what manner.
That is why MS continues to try and make way in the tablet area, but they need to adopt one of the popular OS's such as Android, so they can ensure compatibility with their services. Windows OS on a tablet just hasn't made any headway. And it won't. For better or worse, Android and Apple own this market - MS missed the window of opportunity years ago
That is why MS continues to try and make way in the tablet area, but they need to adopt one of the popular OS's such as Android, so they can ensure compatibility with their services. Windows OS on a tablet just hasn't made any headway. And it won't. For better or worse, Android and Apple own this market - MS missed the window of opportunity years ago
diffusionx
Gold Member
Xbox One, alongside Azure, is the future of the company. Microsoft is betting everything on their transition to a hardware/services company and by far their most successful service is Xbox Live and their most successful hardware is Xbox. If One flops they are in deep, deep trouble.
You wouldn't include that cost in profitability. It's already been spent. You'd use it to calculate an overall ROI on the project, but that's a different story.
lol no. They're not going to adopt Android. They will put their services on Android, though.
You wouldn't include that cost in profitability. It's already been spent. You'd use it to calculate an overall ROI on the project, but that's a different story.
lol no. They're not going to adopt Android. They will put their services on Android, though.
Zombie James
Banned
Random Sony investor wants to Sony to get rid of entertainment division.
Random MS investor wants MS to get rid of Xbox division.
What the hell is going on?
Random MS investor wants MS to get rid of Xbox division.
What the hell is going on?
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Yea, i don't think it means "doom and gloom" for the conventional console owner, since I imagine most people would be pretty hyped about spending less and getting the same quality project. I think his point is just that the console gaming climate is going to radically change in a couple generations.
I think we're somewhat in agreement, only I don't believe the tablet market is lost yet. It's so young.
I think they're already starting to invest more in their apps on other OS.
You are putting a LOT of faith in a $500 set top box, which will compete with $100 set top boxes for the living room. MS has already lost this fight, I don't care how many Live subscriptions they have.
Azure is definitely part of the future of the company though. You are just thinking like a gamer, instead of an investor.
The cost of producing, selling and administrating the goods, plus R&D and other general expenses are still expenses, none the less. I assume we're trying to avoid becoming too specific here.
diffusionx
Gold Member
A service company needs people to buy into services. Xbox One is the starting point for a lot of people to buy into Microsoft services. If they can't do that, they are in trouble.
killer rin
Member
Gaming tends to be a low profit market when compared to the companies other endeavours. For Microsoft, the next closest division is a worth a couple billion more and for Sony its also worth a couple billion more.
Edit: Didn't see the above post.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Are $100 doodads really what people want, though? AppleTV hasn't set the world on fire, neither has Roku. Smart TV features are mostly junk and aren't very popular. Ouya, is that even still a thing?
IIRC the PS3 is the most popular device for watching Netflix, followed by Xbox 360. I think there is ample evidence that people will pay more for capable devices with value-added services.
Amazon will release something high quality and low price, but I don't think a more expensive game-and-everything-else box is such a bad play.
Amazon is the one to watch... though in my mind a PoS, the Kindle fire is one of the best selling Android tablets out there for one reason - price.
Remember, the majority of the US still shops at Wal-Mart so quality isn't really all that important to the main consumer. I'm not talking about your typical console gamer here.
Remember, the majority of the US still shops at Wal-Mart so quality isn't really all that important to the main consumer. I'm not talking about your typical console gamer here.
spookyfish
Member
Funny. I can see investors calling for it to be ditched BECAUSE of all the money they've dumped into it.
Imperfected
Member
They're "focusing" on America because they've essentially locked down every other market already. There's not much point in putting a focus on Japan when they already know the X-Box One is going to be a monumental flop there. There's not much point in putting a focus on Eastern Europe when they already have a massive head-start there due to Microsoft retracting from their plans to release early in those markets.
America and the UK are the only markets it was ever remotely possible for them not to have a major sales lead in, and they've chosen to go for a complete coup d'etat - aiming to uproot Microsoft from the only strongholds of support they have left - rather than just being "satisfied" with holding dominion over essentially the entire rest of the world.
Microsoft was planning to do the same thing, back when they thought they were coming into this sales cycle at an advantage. The weird news you see out of Microsoft Japan - their attempts to court Japanese developers and make a sales push in the country - are leftovers from a worldwide strategy planned out when they thought they were going to be the clear front-runner in most markets. They were confident enough in taking America and Europe that they felt they could afford to expend resources on another wasted effort trying to gain a foothold in Japan.
The companies both wanted to hit the competition where they live, though they probably viewed the effort to do so as a somewhat distant hope. The difference is that Microsoft's blunders have made their plans to expand into Japan completely, absurdly laughable, and simultaneously made Sony's plans to take the market lead in America and the UK suddenly - and frighteningly, for Microsoft - within the realm of possibility. As a result, Microsoft has begun a retraction from their efforts to expand further in the worldwide market in hopes of consolidating a market they previously believed they had on lock, albeit with a few vestigial pieces of their global expansion plan - like the Japanese deals - flailing out there embarrassingly due to being too far along to abort by the time the rug got pulled out from under them.
The fact Microsoft and Sony are focused on the US is not an indicator of how important the US is to the global market, but rather a stark indicator of just how desperate Microsoft's situation has become. They're basically scrambling just to hold onto the market share they had going into this generation, and have almost completely abandoned dreams of expanding their markets.
Yes, I believe the window of opportunity is still open. Microsoft has to stop striving for just above parity with competitors though. They need killer apps. They need to bring something that make people think it's an incredibly value. As it is, the only standout feature is that it's a tablet with Office, which isn't really a killer consumer app. I can get a laptop with Office for half the price.
The ecosystem is great, but Apple and Google have those, too.
Microsoft needs to take some risks and bring something to market that makes people say wow. Kinect did that for a short while and it took off better than most expected, making way for even greater tech in Kinect 2.
As it is right now, Office is the standout product I know of theirs that can't be matched, but it's not very exciting. Kinect 2 looks great, but need to see more applications. Skype is cool, but there are very close alternatives.
MS need to excite regularly. If they can do that then they certainly have a shot at growing in the mobile and tablet space.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Not at all. $100 tablets aren't the tablets leading sales in the consumer market. It's still being led by $200 and up tabs, a price point I feel that Microsoft should be gunning for.
If 3rd parties like Dell and Asus can hit with $250 and $300 Bay Trail tablets with full Windows 8, I don't see why MSFT is still pushing for RT at $349+. The more I think about it the more I feel as if RT is a dead and burning platform that needs to be moved to lead the Consumer Cloud OS platform.
ARM and x86 are crossing paths when it comes to power consumption and efficiency. I know MS wanted to get a presence on ARM but it should be relegated to the phone space for now, IMO.
I never said it was a bad thing overall for gaming overall. In fact, it's a great thing. What I said was that it was a bad thing for the typical console owner because if you can play your games on any device no matter how weak or different... then what's the point of having a $400-500 console? Things like Gaikai, microconsoles, and SteamOS have the potential to make console gaming redundant because no longer would powerful, dedicated hardware be needed to play the latest and greatest games. That's your all digital future.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Umm... yes it is?
It's by far the biggest market, and it's also the market that is most amendable to the products that they are putting out. Japan has transitioned almost completely to mobile and handheld based gaming. From Microsoft's POV I don't see the point of spending a single cent to "expand into Japan." Even if Japanese customers decided to put down their cell phones and get a console, it wouldn't even sell all that many units. The PS3 to date has sold what, 8 or 9 million units in Japan? You can move almost that many units in a good quarter in the US (Wii did it a couple times).
Yeah, pretty much my reaction.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
I take it you haven't read much of the thread, then.
jjgreenwood
Neo Member
Thing is the typical console owner isn't the guy who posts on the internet and preorders his or her consoles. The typical console owner is the one who walks into a shop and buys one because he wants it to do all these different things. They usually want to play cod and fifa/madden on it and want to watch their films on it. They want some games for the kids and want to use it for netflix. This play by microsoft with the sports stuff and kinect may well work with the typical console owner. They may well be put off by ps4 because it is "just games".
Of course there is no way of telling until this time next year. Games consoles are expected to do a lot more now than what they did 8 years ago IMHO. Times have changed.
Technically yes, but I'm sure Microsoft don't really care about that (at least not anymore). It's a written off cost that was necessary for them to get a foothold in the market.
Poorly run companies with cheap, shitty stocks attract activist investors.
I believe the European market is the same size as the US market.
That really doesn't matter at all. The important question is the future sales and costs, not money that was spent 10 years ago.
Even though the Xbox 360 made a profit from 2008 on up, it turned out to be miniscule & not very huge on what their investors had hoped for.
Their entire Entertainment & Devices division are in the hole in terms of profitability by a lot, including the Xbox brand. They lost a total of about $7.4 Billion under the original Xbox & with the Xbox 360 from 2005 to 2007, & haven't been making big profits for it as a whole. That's why Microsoft's investors want to get rid of the entire division as a whole.
Link.
Asia-Pacific Market: $25.1 Billion
North American Market: $22.8 Billion
Europe, Middle East, & Africa: $19.5 Billion
Latin America: $3 Billion
Global Game Market total: $70.4 Billion USD.
So no, the U.S. isn't exactly the biggest market in terms of game sales.
Let's not go crazy now. Microsoft may be in some what of a transitional phase where they don't have much of a presence in the huge market that is mobile, but they still make $20 billion annually. I don't think you can call a company that does that "poorly run". There's a reason why they still possess their AAA credit rating. Something that only three other (non financial) US based companies can achieve.
Oh, I definitely consider them poorly run. Investors generally don't run off successful CEOs. They make a ton of money, but all of the profits come from the same two golden geese they've had for years. Meanwhile, the world is changing around them, and they clearly have no idea to respond.
MrCunningham
Member
XBox is one of their biggest brands outside of Windows and MS Office.
They did take some big losses with the original XBox and early on with the 360, but those losses were expected since they were strong arming their way into the industry. They achieved that successfully well.
GetemMa
Member
Bill Gates only owns 5%.