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Is Capcom's Panta Rhei engine causing them notable issues?

N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Now, I certainly don't think this is the source of all of Capcom's issues, but I'm starting to think this engine is in bad shape, or at least somewhat problematic.

This is a combination of statements they've made, actions taken around Deep Down, and a lack of any other games on the engine being announced.

MT Framework, their previous new engine, lead with Dead Rising 1 and Lost Planet, and then was followed up by their heavy hitters, which were also announced fairly early.

January 2014:

Capcom first mentions that Panta Rhei can't do things that their old engine did, and say that they need more time to be happy with it.

http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/interview/2013/vol03/02.html

Capcom said:
- How would you rate "Panta Rhei" at this stage?

"Ijuin": I often encourage my team members to make improvements to the engine because it's still in the development stages. Some of the things we used to be able to do are no longer possible with the new engine, though we are able to do things that were impossible in the past. More time is needed until we have a new engine we're happy with.
Click to expand...

February 2014:

Capcom notes that they are concerned people might feel that Deep Down looks like a PS3 game despite being on Capcom's new engine and a next-gen only game, and are thus delaying it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=764996

Capcom said:
About Deep Down, I think we’ll give full fledged information to everyone after the summer, so you may have to wait for a little while beyond the launch [of PS4] on February 22nd.

Since we don’t want to risk to be told “This could have been done on PS3!”, we want to finish a game that fully uses the PS4 hardware specs.
Click to expand...

June/July 2014:

Capcom first notes that info on the public beta should be coming in July, and then later apologies, noting that the info will not be coming in July, opting to post low resolution screenshots on Facebook instead.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=847154

https://www.facebook.com/deepdown.c...41828.541082312629912/714733475264794/?type=1

August 2014:

Capcom does not list Deep Down as a game that will be at TGS, despite the game being announced and being at last year's TGS.

Also notably, Capcom has not announced any other games using Panta Rhei since February 2013 when Deep Down was announced. There also seems to be a distinct lack of PS4/XB1 games in general, with most coming from either Western studios using different technology (Strider, Dead Rising 3) or being remasters of old games (Resident Evil: HD Remaster).

It's unknown if Resident Evil: Revelations 2 will use Panta Rhei, but given it is seemingly a cross-gen game, I suspect not.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=878762

L~A said:
Capcom just revealed its line-up for TGS 2014 :

- Dai Gyakuten Saiban (see this thread)
- Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate
- Gaist Crusher God
- Kinki no Magna (in collaboration with Marvelous)
- Bakumatsu Rock Ultra Soul (in collaboration with Marvelous).

Source
Click to expand...
 
D

DrROBschiz

Member
Ouch

They are really struggling with the HD era eh

Why not just use CryEngine? They are paying the Chinese to make games on it.

And heck MHO doesn't look too shabby
 
Jawmuncher

Jawmuncher

Member
Hmm with all the evidence here it really wouldn't surprise me at this point.
For a new engine with a announced game so far back they sure have been quiet about it.
 
M

Miker

Member
Too bad, really. MT Framework was one of my favorite engines last generation, and I'd hope to see Capcom make another engine that's just as solid and scalable.
 
A

Abriael

Banned
They said news about the beta are gonna come in August. Making it possible that beta will start in September for Japan.

If that's the case, I seriously doubt that they'd bring a game already available at home at TGS.
 
Eolz

Eolz

Member
Nice thread.
I think they underestimated or didn't think about cross compatibility with PC and this is posing them problems.
It's also possible they decided recently for other titles (Street fighter?) to just not use this engine (for some reasons, crossgen, features, etc) and that modifying an engine (MT framework) or creating a new one might have made them change their plans.

They have good engineers, I don't worry too much about the quality of their engine, it's probably more due to strategic plans and management.
 
M

Mesoian

Member
Valnen said:
I'll be sad if this ends up being the next Crystal Tools.
Click to expand...

True, but it'll be interesting to know if the thing that sinks japanese console development is engine creation.

It also makes me wonder why more japanese developers aren't just jumping on Unreal4 and Crytek now that they're, from an operational standpoint, basically free.
 
H

Hystzen

Member
After all years using MT Framework it expected some issues when shifting to a new engine. Hopefully they can get it sorted I need a Dragons Dogma sequel
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I think one of the issues might be the lighting.

They use a similar lighting scheme to the one Epic abandoned for Unreal Engine 4 because it only works in small enclosed environments.

Notably, Deep Down takes place entirely in small rooms, so if they want to make a game with a large environment it might be a huge issue for them.
 
G

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
It's an interesting theory, and I wouldn't be surprised.

They should have just continued making improvements to the MT Framework. What a phenomenal engine that is.


Mechazawa said:
Two incredibly broad, off hand comments isn't really enough to convince me there's any major problems with the engine.
Click to expand...

It's the complete lack of output. Capcom hit the ground running last gen with their new engine.
 
B

BronsonLee

Member
GuardianE said:
It's an interesting theory, and I wouldn't be surprised.

They should have just continued making improvements to the MT Framework. What a phenomenal engine that is.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised either. Is there a reason they wouldn't just roll with MT Framework again?
 
Jigolo

Jigolo

Member
Why does it seem that the Japanese are having such huge trouble with engine creation in the HD era. (besides FoxEngine)
 
M

MiniBossBattle

Member
Nirolak said:
I think one of the issues might be the lighting.

They use a similar lighting scheme to the one Epic abandoned for Unreal Engine 4 because it only works in small enclosed environments.

Notably, Deep Down takes place entirely in small rooms, so if they want to make a game with a large environment it might be a huge issue for them.
Click to expand...

Are they using deferred rendering? What was the light rig they used in U4 before scrapping it? Any info on what the SDK can do?
 
M

MilesTeg

Banned
Wonder if RE7 is planned for this engine. REMake HD could be a stop gap title that happened only because of a delay in development. And of course there is also Revelations 2.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
MiniBossBattle said:
Are they using deferred rendering? What was the light rig they used in U4 before scrapping it? Any info on what the SDK can do?
Click to expand...

Epic was using SVOGI (Sparse Voxel Octree Global Illumination). It's very expensive and doesn't perform that well even on Titan-tier hardware.

Capcom is using SVCGI (Sparse Voxel Cone Global Illumination). It's basically the same thing, but cheaper in that it does cone tracing instead of octree calculations. However, it's still quite expensive.

The only no-baking GI approximation that has been especially feasible on PS4/XB1 has been Crytek's LPV (Light Propagation Value ) approach, though a ton of developers still use baked lights which a much higher component of realtime illumination so it looks better than it used to and has notably shorter bake times than before.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Mechazawa said:
Two incredibly broad, off hand comments isn't really enough to convince me there's any major problems with the engine.
Click to expand...

angular graphics said:
Yeah.
Click to expand...

I'm factoring in the lack of titles made using it as part of this along with the delays on the title that is into this.

Also, the main comment isn't exactly off-hand as it's an interview they publicized on their investor site with questions they provided to themselves.

It's possible they're just not making anything or their projects have other reasons they're taking notably long times to unveil, but I don't see this as an off the table issue. What do you feel is notably more likely and why?
 
Reallink

Reallink

Member
Probably having trouble downgrading it to fit the weaker than expected consoles. The JP studios were apparently expecting GTX680 class GPU's based on the Agnes Philosophy and the panty raid unveils. Even Epic is apparently struggling with this based on the lack of UE4.
 
S

SneakyStephan

Banned
MiniBossBattle said:
Are they using deferred rendering? What was the light rig they used in U4 before scrapping it? Any info on what the SDK can do?
Click to expand...

sparse voxel octree global illumination, a form of realtime global illumination with light bounces

It looks fucking amazing but requires a powerful gpu.
Instead epic just went back to using baked lighting with lightmass.
 
Clear

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
This is just silly. The reality is that most of the big western developers have yet to show anything substantial in this generation either. Have Capcom shown less of Deep Down than ND have shown of the next Uncharted? How about 343i? Bethesda? Bioware? Criterion? Quantic Dream? The list goes on and on...

The amount of concern over what Japanese developers are doing whilst their Western counterparts are equally quiet seems unfounded to me.
 
V

Valnen

Member
Nirolak said:
I'm factoring in the lack of titles made using it as part of this along with the delays on the title that is into this.

Also, the main comment isn't exactly off-hand as it's an interview they publicized on their investor site with questions they provided to themselves.
Click to expand...

Is it possible that there are several titles being made right now that are simply not ready to be announced yet? How far along into the PS3/360 cycle did we start seeing Capcom's major games like DMC 4 or RE5?

Edit: Had to look it up. 2-3 years into the cycle of that gen.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Probably one of the more plausible explanations given as to why Capcom has been MIA for quite some time as far as current gen (PS4/XB1) is concerned.


How far along into the PS3/360 cycle did we start seeing Capcom's major games like DMC 4 or RE5?
Click to expand...
DMC4 and RE5 were announced when the PS3 was announced. It was at their E3 conference. Now they were CG trailers but at least they announced something.
 
M

MCD

Junior Member
could be, or could be the usual Japanese video game development and slowness. no next gen demand could be another factor.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I hope they can manage to sort out these problems as their work with MT Framework last generation was absolutely incredible. It's a shame they're running into issues...

Nirolak said:
I think one of the issues might be the lighting.

They use a similar lighting scheme to the one Epic abandoned for Unreal Engine 4 because it only works in small enclosed environments.

Notably, Deep Down takes place entirely in small rooms, so if they want to make a game with a large environment it might be a huge issue for them.
Click to expand...
Well, The Tomorrow Children is using the very same type of lighting that was abandoned with UE4 though obviously that game has a very different visual design. It seems like it should still be possible albeit clearly very challenging.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Clear said:
This is just silly. The reality is that most of the big western developers have yet to show anything substantial in this generation either.
Click to expand...
I'd like to start by noting you're taking a publisher and comparing them to individual developers, but I'll humor this anyway.

Part of this is a the overall silence of Capcom and lack of announcements of games built on top of their engine that's going to power all their major PS4/XB1 titles.

If the issue here was just Deep Down, I wouldn't ask a question. They also themselves stated there were issues.

Clear said:
Have Capcom shown less of Deep Down than ND have shown of the next Uncharted?
Click to expand...
Well, that game lost its two creative leads, and the one guy we knew was in the game isn't anymore, so I feel we know why it's taking a while.

Clear said:
How about 343i?
Click to expand...
We're getting a beta for Halo 5 in December and releasing some kind of Halo 2 multiplayer upgrade on what they describe as "an Xbox One engine", but I'm not sure if that's actually the same one they're using for Halo 5. That said, for one studio, that would still be more games than Capcom.

Clear said:
Bethesda?
Click to expand...
I don't think there's much praise for their technology.

Clear said:
Bioware?
Click to expand...
Dragon Age: Inquisition releases in November and has lots of footage. It has not mysteriously disappeared. They've also shown off snippets of three other games on the same engine, though it's clear they're pretty early.

Clear said:
Criterion?
Click to expand...
The studio was downsized to 17 people while the rest of the staff shipped Need For Speed: Rivals at launch on the engine they're using this generation.

Clear said:
Quantic Dream?
Click to expand...
They do take quite a while to launch games. However, I don't think they've made any statements about tech issues.

Clear said:
The amount of concern over what Japanese developers are doing whilst their Western counterparts are equally quiet seems unfounded to me.
Click to expand...
I didn't state anything about other Japanese developers. Do you feel there are notable issues with other ones that made this pop to your mind?
 
K

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
Clear said:
This is just silly. The reality is that most of the big western developers have yet to show anything substantial in this generation either. Have Capcom shown less of Deep Down than ND have shown of the next Uncharted? How about 343i? Bethesda? Bioware? Criterion? Quantic Dream? The list goes on and on...

The amount of concern over what Japanese developers are doing whilst their Western counterparts are equally quiet seems unfounded to me.
Click to expand...
Consider what Capcom had to show before the launch of the last gen. Dead Rising, DMC4, Lost Planet, RE5. If all their internal studios were MIA right then, it would be truly shocking, coming off their being kings of the world in the PS2 days.
And now they keep delaying the single game they've revealed for new gen hardware, one year into the generation, and that's treated as normal. It just shows how much they've been mismanaged over the past generation.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Valnen said:
Is it possible that there are several titles being made right now that are simply not ready to be announced yet? How far along into the PS3/360 cycle did we start seeing Capcom's major games like DMC 4 or RE5?

Edit: Had to look it up. 2-3 years into the cycle of that gen.
Click to expand...

It's not impossible, but we had Dead Rising and Lost Planet as the first MT Framework games prior to those coming out.

It's the lack of overall announcements that I feel sticks out.
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
It is very weird, how they've buried Deep Down and, especially, not announced anything running on Panta Rhei ever since Feb 2013, where they sounded very confident in it.

Aren't they in deep financial troubles though? Do they even have the resources to support a bigger game without it being a huge risk?
 
M

Mechazawa

Member
GuardianE said:
It's the complete lack of output. Capcom hit the ground running last gen with their new engine.
Click to expand...

Nirolak said:
I'm factoring in the lack of titles made using it as part of this along with the delays on the title that is into this.

Also, the main comment isn't exactly off-hand as it's an interview they publicized on their investor site with questions they provided to themselves.
Click to expand...

But the type of games that we would generally associate with using the Panta Rhei engine(RE7, new Dragon's Dogma, new DMC) had major entries at literally the tail end of the last generation.

This seems like the natural cooking period for Capcom's major, internal teams to me.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Mechazawa said:
But the type of games that we would generally associate with using the Panta Rhei engine(RE7, new Dragon's Dogma, new DMC) had major entries at literally the tail end of the last generation.

This seems like the natural cooking period for Capcom's major, internal teams to me.
Click to expand...

I guess I'll ask this another way.

What is the latest you feel Capcom would announce new games built on Panta Rhei if nothing is going wrong?

I mean literally any game. Doesn't have to be a huge franchise.
 
G

Grisby

Member
Miker said:
Too bad, really. MT Framework was one of my favorite engines last generation, and I'd hope to see Capcom make another engine that's just as solid and scalable.
Click to expand...
Yeah, a shame as I really liked MT Framework as well.

That Lost Planet demo was pretty awesome when it came out.
 
Ooccoo

Ooccoo

Member
Capcom just revealed its line-up for TGS 2014 :

- Dai Gyakuten Saiban (see this thread)
- Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate
- Gaist Crusher God
- Kinki no Magna (in collaboration with Marvelous)
- Bakumatsu Rock Ultra Soul (in collaboration with Marvelous).
Click to expand...

Extremely poor even from Capcom. Hopefully they show Revelations 2 or RE7, Onimusha, SOMETHING. I know MH is popular but still, awful.
 
X

Xpliskin

Member
My theory as well.


I think Fox Engine's approach to photorealistic rendering has made them reconsider their entire approach to this gen.
 
Clear

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Nirolak said:
I didn't state anything about other Japanese developers. Do you feel there are notable issues with other ones that made this pop to your mind?
Click to expand...

I was referring to the recent thread about SE losing their technical director and how that related to the Luminous Engine being impacted.

Krev said:
And now they keep delaying the single game they've revealed for new gen hardware, one year into the generation, and that's treated as normal. It just shows how much they've been mismanaged over the past generation.
Click to expand...

Why assume its a technical issue as opposed to a strategic planning one? After all Deep Down was revealed to be a F2P title, under the Capcom Online Games banner. Which was somewhat surprising I think to most of us at the time.
 
SerTapTap

SerTapTap

Member
Is there some cultural reason every JP dev seems to home-roll engines? Seems kinda crazy in this day and age, was surprised to see GG Xrd using Unreal Engine--and damn, they put it to good, non-standard use.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
It seems odd that they wouldn't have done a new iteration on MT framework and that they wouldn't have looked at the types of featuresets they would need in an engine for Panta Rhei. It almost sounded like they integrated a bunch of wishlist features while ignoring what would make the engine easily useable for their studios.

dark10x said:
Well, The Tomorrow Children is using the very same type of lighting that was abandoned with UE4 though obviously that game has a very different visual design. It seems like it should still be possible albeit clearly very challenging.
Click to expand...
I believe Lionhead actually came up with a real time GI solution that got intergrated into UE4 as a whole once they presented it to Epic.
 
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