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The Tomorrow Children (PS4, Pixeljunk guys) uses Cascaded Voxel Cone Tracing

it is amazing how much work gets thrown away and redone each frame in graphics engines. The view changes very slightly and the whole scene is re-rendered with hardly any recovery and reuse of the math that was just done.
Unless I am missing something, the limitation of this engine regarding fast moving povs reveals that the image it produces in any frame is more than just the product of the compute time in that frame? but to some extent builds on the work done in previous frames where the view was almost identical.
or maybe I am off base here.
 
This is what I've always loved about console devs. They can really work some magic when they make games. This kind of stuff shouldn't be possible, but here it is.

Like when he mentions Cone Tracing still being slow (30~ms) after they changed it from the Octree to the 3D Texture cascade and reworked some code. They got the speed down a ton but still a bit slow ( 10ms for final screen traces, too many texture lookups). So they went in and looked at the code and found a way to cut the texture lookups by 1/3rd. Voila, not as many texture lookups.

The stuff they are doing in this game, damned impressive. Genius level shit
 

Cornbread78

Member
Thanks Dylan for the info.

Always great when a dev loves to talk about what their doing tech wise even if I only understand about two words per post. This is how you transfer the love for what you do over to the people who will end up loving what you've done. :)

Can't wait, looks brilliant and really intrested to see what you and others are going to make these boxes do this gen.



This guy gets it. I feel the same way, lol. The techie talk is big, but the end result fr us is lookign great so far..
 
it is amazing how much work gets thrown away and redone each frame in graphics engines. The view changes very slightly and the whole scene is re-rendered with hardly any recovery and reuse of the math that was just done.
Unless I am missing something, the limitation of this engine regarding fast moving povs reveals that the image it produces in any frame is more than just the product of the compute time in that frame? but to some extent builds on the work done in previous frames where the view was almost identical.
or maybe I am off base here.

This can be a problem in anything that uses cascaded data, you can have the same thing with large cascaded shadow maps.

The voxel data is only stored at the highest detail for a small block around the current view point, so if nothing changes they can be reused. Once you start moving, you have to lose the high detail voxels from the sides of the block you're moving away from and start calculating the ones you're moving towards. If you suddenly zipped to a new place in the world, all 6 levels of voxels would need to be recalculated at once before you could start drawing things properly.
 

KKRT00

Member
I've read the concept of this game and i have to admit, its the first really interesting title for me for PS4.
Hope that PS4 community will appreciate this effort. We need more ambitious and mechanically complex games on consoles.
 
Don't have a great understanding of what that means but this game is up there with WiLD and No Man's Sky for me as PS4 games with huge potential.
 
This can be a problem in anything that uses cascaded data, you can have the same thing with large cascaded shadow maps.

It is a problem but also wonderful. A grand master at chess can play 20 people at once by looking at each position anew, and working out the best move, then clearing his mind and going to the next one, but he can play much better and more deeply by playing one game and building up his mental map over time.

I can happily do without kill cams in return for better graphics.
 

HiVision

Member
The response has been truly amazing since Gamescom.

We are kind of sticking our necks out a bit on this one, new technology and a new genre, it's been a huge challenge for us.

One side of the game people haven't picked up on yet is that it also has hints of a collaborative Animal Crossing in it (without drawing on that too much), but with kaiju and missile launchers! :)
 

Handy Fake

Member
The response has been truly amazing since Gamescom.

We are kind of sticking our necks out a bit on this one, new technology and a new genre, it's been a huge challenge for us.

One side of the game people haven't picked up on yet is that it also has hints of a collaborative Animal Crossing in it (without drawing on that too much), but with kaiju and missile launchers!
:)

And, spectacularly from out of left-field... :D
 
The response has been truly amazing since Gamescom.

We are kind of sticking our necks out a bit on this one, new technology and a new genre, it's been a huge challenge for us.

One side of the game people haven't picked up on yet is that it also has hints of a collaborative Animal Crossing in it (without drawing on that too much), but with kaiju and missile launchers! :)

It's different, eye catching, refreshing it just makes me want to see whats next in regards to the game..looks like alot of interesting go on in the world.
 
While it does make sense to say that the code is running faster due to Async Compute, it is not apples to apples with it running "like a 2.3TF GPU."

This isnt "punching above its weight," but rather the GPU taking advantage of its 1.84 TFs better.
Approaching theoretical max as opposed to the old shock and awe approach on high end PCs; thats why console development is interesting. Although even that is changing on PCs with fancy new APIs.

Don't have a great understanding of what that means but this game is up there with WiLD and No Man's Sky for me as PS4 games with huge potential.

I too showed these games to a friend after gamescom. He isnt into shooter or racers, and primarily plays obscure titles on pc. After seeing these titles his interest is through the roof.
 
Hey, it's Dylan here from Q,

Thanks for checking out James' presentation, he put a lot of work into that to try and help people understand what is going on with our engine!

The game has freely deform-able geometry which is why right at the start we decided we couldn't go with the more standard graphics pipelines that need a lot of pre-baked information. However, we *did* want the very nice lighting that those pre-baked systems can give (like the lighting you are seeing in the Silicon Studios demo released this week).

When you guys see this game actually *running* in 1080p on your tvs with the lighting all simply *working* you are going to love it; dig into a mountain and the light spills around correctly, and the shadowing from things cast in all directions natually and realistically. It /almost/ looks like a Pixar movie at times and is the closest to that "rendered" ideal I've seen so far in an actual game (not a tech demo). Although I do have high hopes for Uncharted on the PS4!

Thanks. The trailer really blew me away graphically and I love the idea of deformable geometry! Cannot wait. Can you give any information on the upcoming beta/alpha? I would love to see it running myself
 
TheTomorrowChildren-Hero.jpg



.....Claymation-Lenin is creepy as FUCK.
 
I'm still unclear about how the online works. I've read articles mention that the online is asynchronous. but not sure what that means. are we playing with other people in real time? as in when monster come and you had to defend your town, does it become multiplayer co-op boss battle? one of the preview I read mention that you don't always see other player's action and they're invisible to you. make me a bit confused how the online works
 

HiVision

Member
I'm still unclear about how the online works. I've read articles mention that the online is asynchronous. but not sure what that means. are we playing with other people in real time? as in when monster come and you had to defend your town, does it become multiplayer co-op boss battle? one of the preview I read mention that you don't always see other player's action and they're invisible to you. make me a bit confused how the online works

You live in a particular town with X no. of other people, you can visit other people's towns too. The world and its objects are entirely shared but you only see each-other when you perform actions that can affect other players because you are projected clones all a little shifted away from each-other on the plane of reality.

So for example, if you pick up an object, you will appear in the other people's worlds, stoop down, pick up the object, stand up and then fizzle out of existence (taking the object with you).
When you put it down again, the same thing happens again, leaving the object in everyone's world.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
well, why don't Epic use this one instead?

It tends to be bounded based on how much you have going on at a given time.

Like that's part of why Deep Down happens in caves.

Looking here, while you see a long ways into the distance, there's not much out there.

It's a really nice solution if you don't have a technical requirement that would cause it to be more problematic though.

For Epic, a lot of people would want to use the engine to make an open world game with a lot of stuff on screen, and a lot of it might be moving (like foliage), so they switched to a baked lighting component.

Lionhead has Light Propogation Values added to the engine which don't look as good, but can work better in a large, heavily dynamic environment. It's the solution Crytek pioneered.
 
You live in a particular town with X no. of other people, you can visit other people's towns too. The world and its objects are entirely shared but you only see each-other when you perform actions that can affect other players because you are projected clones all a little shifted away from each-other on the plane of reality.

So for example, if you pick up an object, you will appear in the other people's worlds, stoop down, pick up the object, stand up and then fizzle out of existence (taking the object with you).
When you put it down again, the same thing happens again, leaving the object in everyone's world.

oh okay that makes it more clear. but the action all happen in real time for everyone? is there any reason why make people go invisible when they're just walking around doing nothing?
 

Respawn

Banned
This will probably be the first online game I play since...

...I can't remember the last time I played an online game properly...Probably Quake 3!

Really love the concept and aesthetics. Definitely a breath of fresh air, along with Wild, from Gamescom.
Wow. When I see a post like this you know the devs have done good.
I too am looking forward to this interesting looking game.
Also, much thanks to the devs for posting.
 

onQ123

Member
While it does make sense to say that the code is running faster due to Async Compute, it is not apples to apples with it running "like a 2.3TF GPU."

This isnt "punching above its weight," but rather the GPU taking advantage of its 1.84 TFs better.

Of course it's not making the 1.84 TFLOPS GPU into a 2.3 TFLOPS GPU but for what they are rendering they are effectively getting the processing done in the same time they would have if they was using a 2.3 TFLOPS GPU without using the ACE's.


It's like a free 460 GFLOPS of compute catching a free ride in between the cracks of the graphics pipeline.


That's over 1/3 of the Xbox One's GPU power & over 100% of the Wii U's as far as I know.
 

SerTapTap

Member
This game is sounding and looking amazing. Glad Q Games is back. A bit surprised they've ditched the Pixeljunk label, I guess it limited their ability to name games though.
 
UE4 am cry.

Different techs.

The main difference is in the way they store the scene in voxels. If you just have a big 3d texture even 8GB wouldn't be enough to store the whole scene, even though most of that texture would be empty data.

UE4 solved this by using an octree. The problem is that the octree is very expansive to maintain (I think it's a task better suited to a cpu, which might benefit the SoC architecture of consoles, while on Pc there would be lots of copying involved). They are probably (didn't read any pdf yet) solving this by using tiled resources, so only relevant voxel data is actually stored on memory. So there's no cost to maintaining the octree anymore.

The downside is that without the octree (which makes searching more efficient) probably the actual cone tracing becomes more expansive, but dunno if that's why the game seems to take place in a confined area or that's an artistic/design choice.

Long story short the ACE's just made the PS4 1.84 TFLOP GPU render like a 2.3 TFLOP GPU & there is still some empty spaces left to fill in to get even more out of it.

That's a silly conclusion. The only reason why there's empty spaces in the first place is because there are idle execution units, which means ultimately they are not bound completely by processing power.

That's just words however. If every other system packing a GPU does not use theirs equally well one might just as well say the PS4 is 'punching above its weight'.

That would be true if only the Ps4 gpu among all the gpus on the market had "something" that enables more efficient usage, but that's not the case.

It tends to be bounded based on how much you have going on at a given time.

Like that's part of why Deep Down happens in caves.

Looking here, while you see a long ways into the distance, there's not much out there.

It's a really nice solution if you don't have a technical requirement that would cause it to be more problematic though.

For Epic, a lot of people would want to use the engine to make an open world game with a lot of stuff on screen, and a lot of it might be moving (like foliage), so they switched to a baked lighting component.

Lionhead has Light Propogation Values added to the engine which don't look as good, but can work better in a large, heavily dynamic environment. It's the solution Crytek pioneered.

Lionhead took a step further though, instead of working on screen space they are also using a voxel representation of the scene, which allows them to simulate more bounces, have emissive materials, and have objects not on screen interfering on the lighting. IIRC they can also use the voxels for a glossy reflections.
 

Vire

Member
SCEE and SCEA should be making announcements regarding the alpha testing in their respective territories soon.

Woohoo! I said it in another thread, but this game just looks bonkers. I mean that in the best possible way, I've never seen a game quite like it and I still don't fully understand the mechanics, but that's what makes it great!

Can't wait to play this for myself.
 

HiVision

Member
Someone was saying on twitter that in an earlier thread on neogaf a false rumour was spread saying that we aren't 1080p. Well, I'm saying it now, we've always been 1080p, right from the very start and never even considered a lower resolution. There is no up-scaling.

Lukas - you really need to read the pdf - we ditched octrees for 3d textures which sped up everything, especially when we moved to multiple sets of 3d textures. Have a read through, we have some pretty damn good optimisations detailed in there.

Async compute does let the ps4 punch above its weight, because code can be fine-tuned to the system we have to use it fully (filling in the holes).

Callibretto - because it adds a lot of uniqueness to the game and lets us do things a bit differently. It also lets us support a ton of people in the same area with no slow down. :)
The most important thing though is that it lets you feel more in control, more as if you are playing a single player game (like Journey or Dark Souls) and the other players simply pop in from time to time.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Lukas - you really need to read the pdf - we ditched octrees for 3d textures which sped up everything, especially when we moved to multiple sets of 3d textures. Have a read through, we have some pretty damn good optimisations detailed in there.

Async compute does let the ps4 punch above its weight, because code can be fine-tuned to the system we have to use it fully (filling in the holes).


Is this scheduling or this work as a whole helped by having more than two ACE engines? I think that question gets to the heart of the debate over whether 8 ACEs helps above the 'standard 2'. I read in your notes that you mention you have 3 compute queues, but I'm not sure if that maps as 1:1 with ACEs or if you mean 3 queues within one ACE or whatever :p Some people seem to use ACE and queue interchangeably so hard to tell.
 
Callibretto - because it adds a lot of uniqueness to the game and lets us do things a bit differently. It also lets us support a ton of people in the same area with no slow down. :)
The most important thing though is that it lets you feel more in control, more as if you are playing a single player game (like Journey or Dark Souls) and the other players simply pop in from time to time.

after I post my comment, I do think that it may be a hassle to go anywhere if the environment is too crowded with people, lol
 

Vire

Member
The one complaint I might have about the visuals is the skyboxes seem very plain. Maybe it's a purposeful stylistic choice to give off a more sterile feeling, but I'm still not sure I like it. It just makes the game seem unfinished or a little too tech demoey.
 

Gurish

Member
So awesome to see the Dev answering questions and sharing information, i want to buy the game just because of that! (and because it looks amazing ofcourse :) )
 

Man

Member
That's some quality info straight from the dev, thanks Dylan.

Just for fun: You are forced to pick one (and only one) hardware aspect of the PS4 console to deem as your favorite. Which one? Unified memory, cache bypass, async compute, HuMA etc.
 
Good to see a dev in here talking to people even I won't personally understand half the techy talk.

Tje game looks stunning btw and I'm really looking forward to seeing more of this.
 

OneUh8

Member
Wow this game.... Day 0. Loving everything about it. The tech sounds amazing. I always wanted a Pixar (visuals) in a game.
 

vpance

Member
Capcom's Deep Down is using a pre-baked (it creates them once as the level loads) version of very similar tech. They didn't have deform-able landscape and user content so there was no need for them to do it in realtime and of course their styling is different to ours, but I think the technique works exceptionally well for them too.

I think that's new info on Deep Down, I thought they were going full real time GI as well. Makes sense though, since the levels are static. Japanese devs pushing the high end tech early is great to see.
 
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