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gamechanger87 · Mar 5, 2015

Let's try and keep the trolling and drive bys to a minimum. I'm not an expert on any of this stuff but I figured I would start the thread with the link and a few tidbits that I understood.

Full DX12 video up.

http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/GDC/GDC-2015/Advanced-DirectX12-Graphics-and-Performance

Unity move from DX11 to DX 12.

Before: 23ms for the frame

After: 13ms for the frame.

Also, there are two feature levels. FL 12.0 which is pretty much all cards and Maxwell is FL 12.1. According to MS, over 50% of gamers already have hardware to support DX12. Expecting to hit 2/3rds of hardware out there by the fall.

The 20% GPU improvement quoted by Phil appears to be related to UAV barriers and the improvement in Fable Legends when you just move from DX11 to DX12. It jumps from 900p to 1080p. More details on Friday.

DieH@rd · Mar 5, 2015

Yes, low level APIs have the tendency to reduce the workload on CPU, sometimes by a lot. DX11 driver slowed the workload significantly, and the API was very much focused on 1 or 2 core performance. Other cores were criminally underused.

And as soon CPU bottleneck is removed, GPU can start working faster and more optimized [same performance for less power].

Kezen · Mar 5, 2015

Bow low before our savior Directx 12.

gamechanger87 · Mar 5, 2015

Kezen said:
Bow low before our savior Directx 12.

Exactly! haha

Still its an interesting talk.

Portugeezer · Mar 5, 2015

gamechanger87 said:
Unity move from DX11 to DX 12.
Before: 23ms for the frame

After: 13ms for the frame.

UnrealEck · Mar 5, 2015

Will I ever upgrade my i7 920?

Cidd · Mar 5, 2015

UnrealEck said:
Will I ever upgrade my i7 920?

And here I thought my i5 2500K was old, Jesus.

kitch9 · Mar 5, 2015

Just go's to show how shitty and inefficient the MS code was before to the point it was embarrassing.

We literally have been spending fortunes just to brute force completely shitty code to work.

Hayvic · Mar 5, 2015

Cidd said:
And here I thought my i5 2500K was old, Jesus.

Hah! Q9450 right here.

Zel3 · Mar 5, 2015

Cidd said:
And here I thought my i5 2500K was old, Jesus.

My I7 920 is still going strong >_>

Human_me · Mar 5, 2015

UnrealEck said:
Will I ever upgrade my i7 920?

I upgraded my 930 to a 4770k a few weeks back.

It was worth it. I ended up getting 10-20fps extra in a lot of CPU demanding situations.

As for the Topic at hand, theres Directx 12, and Directx12.1

Maxwell supports Directx 12.1 (according to OP)
What does Directx12.1 do?

Delusibeta · Mar 5, 2015

DieH@rd said:
Yes, low level APIs have the tendency to reduce the workload on CPU, sometimes by a lot. DX11 driver slowed the workload significantly, and the API was very much focused on 1 or 2 core performance. Other cores were criminally underused.

And as soon CPU bottleneck is removed, GPU can start working faster and more optimized [same performance for less power].

Pretty much.

The tl;dr edition of all this is that DX12 has less overhead sucking up CPU and GPU resources compared to DX11. The main downside comes in said overhead containing useful stuff for programmers, so it's more susceptible to coding cock-ups. That is what testing is for, however, and it's not like there wasn't stinkers shipped with DX11 (hi, Master Chief Collection).

dr. apocalipsis · Mar 5, 2015

UnrealEck said:
Will I ever upgrade my i7 920?

Yes, with a Xeon X5650.

Hayvic said:
Hah! Q9450 right here.

Brofist.

pottuvoi · Mar 5, 2015

Zel3 said:
My I7 920 is still going strong >_>

Same, but Skylake is coming..

djplaeskool · Mar 5, 2015

I think I'm gonna ride this i7-3930k until the wheels fall off.

daninthemix · Mar 5, 2015

gamechanger87 said:
According to MS, over 50% of gamers already have hardware to support DX12.

That's great but what percentage will have an OS capable of using it?

Kezen · Mar 5, 2015

daninthemix said:
That's great but what percentage will have an OS capable of using it?

W10 is free for one whole year for W7 and W8 users.

HarryDemeanor · Mar 5, 2015

daninthemix said:
That's great but what percentage will have an OS capable of using it?

Whatever percentage of Windows 7 and Windows 8/8.1 users upgrade to Windows 10 for free. Which would be quite a lot.

gamechanger87 · Mar 5, 2015

daninthemix said:
That's great but what percentage will have an OS capable of using it?

I think their expectation is that a lot of people will upgrade. They talk about the push of DX12 via the OS rather than the other way around.

Wouldn't be surprised to see W10 come over as a Windows Update, so a lot of people are asked to update free right when it releases. I think any gamers whom care will want to upgrade to use their upgraded video card.

The asteroids demo is really cool at 33:30. Tripled frame rate while lowering CPU usage.

daninthemix · Mar 5, 2015

HarryDemeanor said:
Whatever percentage of Windows 7 and Windows 8/8.1 users upgrade to Windows 10 for free. Which would be quite a lot.

I forgot about the free upgrade. Still v. concerned about existing games/apps not working on 10 though.

gamechanger87 · Mar 5, 2015

daninthemix said:
I forgot about the free upgrade. Still v. concerned about existing games/apps not working on 10 though.

Watch this video. They go into back compat.

http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/GDC/GDC-2015/Developing-Games-for-Windows-10

squidyj · Mar 5, 2015

after listening to the presentation it really sounds like they're opening up a lot of stuff to developer control that was previously managed. Which is pretty cool but I can't wait to see a dev shoot himself in the foot

JaggedSac · Mar 5, 2015

gamechanger87 said:
Wouldn't be surprised to see W10 come over as a Windows Update, so a lot of people are asked to update free right when it releases. I think any gamers whom care will want to upgrade to use their upgraded video card.

I believe that is the current plan.

gamechanger87 · Mar 5, 2015

JaggedSac said:
I believe that is the current plan.

Its the smartest move. Many people won't go out of their way to find the link, but if you package it in and ask someone if they will upgrade then you get a better hit rate. You can do that with the W10 Tech Preview.

Phamit · Mar 5, 2015

daninthemix said:
That's great but what percentage will have an OS capable of using it?

since everyone with win 8.1 or 7 can uprade for free, theoretically over 80 %

batman2million · Mar 5, 2015

UnrealEck said:
Will I ever upgrade my i7 920?

Zel3 said:
My I7 920 is still going strong >_>

Same here. Hoping Skylake will bring me the CPU I need, not the one I deserve.

daninthemix · Mar 5, 2015

gamechanger87 said:
Watch this video. They go into back compat.

http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/GDC/GDC-2015/Developing-Games-for-Windows-10

Can't access it at the mo. Take an average person with, like, 300 working Steam games. Are they suggesting they would all work on 10?

belmonkey · Mar 5, 2015

Is it only the GTX 9xx series that will support DX 12.1? Only 12.0 for the 750 (ti)?

Diablohead · Mar 5, 2015

I still have a DX10 graphics card, lol

dampflokfreund · Mar 5, 2015

belmonkey said:
Is it only the GTX 9xx series that will support DX 12.1? Only 12.0 for the 750 (ti)?

I guess its only GM20x, but don't worry there is just a very tiny difference between 12.1 and 12.0

gamechanger87 · Mar 5, 2015

daninthemix said:
Can't access it at the mo. Take an average person with, like, 300 working Steam games. Are they suggesting they would all work on 10?

I don't believe they are that stupid to just nix everything old.

Based on Don Box's comments, W10 for PC is set up to support the "long long long long long long long tail of windows applications that have been developed since the 1990s".

Hugh Swank · Mar 5, 2015

I watched the video of the conference, and it seemed to me that when the speaker was talking about the 20% GPU boost, he was referring to new coding techniques that are available via DX12.

Now I'm not a software engineer, so can someone explain to me how or why this would not apply to the Xbox One?

I mean to me, I got the impression that it was about a more efficient way of loading the GPU that hasn't been available before, so shouldn't it help the XB1 GPU as well?

Serious question...no troll

indigo-cyclops · Mar 5, 2015

gamechanger87 said:
I don't believe they are that stupid to just nix everything old.

Based on Don Box's comments, W10 for PC is set up to support the "long long long long long long long tail of windows applications that have been developed since the 1990s".

This is very interesting...

gamechanger87 · Mar 5, 2015

INDIGO_CYCLOPS said:
This is very interesting...

You should check it out. Starts off with a nice history of how we got here.

McHuj · Mar 5, 2015

So now additional hardware features announced, correct? Maxwell has everything?

JaggedSac · Mar 5, 2015

gamechanger87 said:
You should check it out. Starts off with a nice history of how we got here.

yah, this session is pretty good

Dictator93 · Mar 5, 2015

McHuj said:
So now additional hardware features announced, correct? Maxwell has everything?

I seems to have all of 12.1 stuff they have shown so far. Why does the OP mention the 900ü-1080p transition for Fabe Legends on xb1? Did they say that?

I thought they were talking about performance savings on PC from dx11 to dx12.

gamechanger87 · Mar 5, 2015

JaggedSac said:
yah, this session is pretty good

Additional comments from the W10 overview regarding cross buy. Games are tied to your user name and each game will have an automatic cloud sync for saves.

Lets say you are playing Fable Legends on your PC and you save and quit. When you go home and turn on your xbox, you will download the save immediately from the cloud and pick up right where you left off.

gamechanger87 · Mar 5, 2015

Dictator93 said:
I seems to have all of 12.1 stuff they have shown so far. Why does the OP mention the 900ü-1080p transition for Fabe Legends on xb1? Did they say that?

I thought they were talking about performance savings on PC from dx11 to dx12.

They were specifically speaking about the impact of the shift from DX11 to DX12 on the PC version of the game. Just converting it from DX11 to DX12 allowed them to move from 900p to 1080p at the same frame rate.

Dictator93 · Mar 5, 2015

gamechanger87 said:
They were specifically speaking about the impact of the shift from DX11 to DX12 on the PC version of the game. Just converting it from DX11 to DX12 allowed them to move from 900p to 1080p at the same frame rate.

OH! Thanks for the quick response. I immediately assumed otherwise.

Hugh Swank · Mar 5, 2015

Dictator93 said:
I seems to have all of 12.1 stuff they have shown so far. Why does the OP mention the 900ü-1080p transition for Fabe Legends on xb1? Did they say that?

I thought they were talking about performance savings on PC from dx11 to dx12.

I'm genuinely interested in what the heck MS is talking about in regards to DX12 and the benefits for PC & XB1. I just wish they would be more clear & definitive. Here's the description of the conference;

"DirectX12 enables next generation games to deliver better performance with greater flexibility and control. This technical session goes deep into the DirectX12 APIs you can use to reduce CPU rendering overhead, manage GPU resource usage more efficiently, and express the most cutting-edge 3D graphics possible across the spectrum of Windows 10 devices. Whether you are building a game for the phone, PC, or Xbox - you don't want to miss this talk."

Why mention the Xbox in your description? The discussion must be relevant to the Xbox as well, right?

FF Seraphim · Mar 5, 2015

pottuvoi said:
Same, but Skylake is coming..

Do we have a time frame for Skylake? I want to pick one up along with a Titan X for a new build... if they come out at the same time...

gamechanger87 · Mar 5, 2015

Hugh Swank said:
I'm genuinely interested in what the heck MS is talking about in regards to DX12 and the benefits for PC & XB1. I just wish they would be more clear & definitive. Here's the description of the conference;

"DirectX12 enables next generation games to deliver better performance with greater flexibility and control. This technical session goes deep into the DirectX12 APIs you can use to reduce CPU rendering overhead, manage GPU resource usage more efficiently, and express the most cutting-edge 3D graphics possible across the spectrum of Windows 10 devices. Whether you are building a game for the phone, PC, or Xbox - you don't want to miss this talk."

Why mention the Xbox in your description? The discussion must be relevant to the Xbox as well, right?

It is relevant to the X1 because the X1 will use a lot of DX12 features. I believe the big focus is that games made for DX12 on PC can easily be converted to the X1. The key to all of these APIs is how much devs are willing to do take advantage of it. They must decide if it is worth putting in all this work on DX12 when it won't work on the console.

TC McQueen · Mar 5, 2015

Hugh Swank said:
I'm genuinely interested in what the heck MS is talking about in regards to DX12 and the benefits for PC & XB1. I just wish they would be more clear & definitive. Here's the description of the conference;

"DirectX12 enables next generation games to deliver better performance with greater flexibility and control. This technical session goes deep into the DirectX12 APIs you can use to reduce CPU rendering overhead, manage GPU resource usage more efficiently, and express the most cutting-edge 3D graphics possible across the spectrum of Windows 10 devices. Whether you are building a game for the phone, PC, or Xbox - you don't want to miss this talk."

Why mention the Xbox in your description? The discussion must be relevant to the Xbox as well, right?

Xbox One is going to be running on Windows 10, so from then on out, Xbox One games are going to be using DX12. It also allows devs to get games to output 1080p instead of 900p with DX11.

Hugh Swank · Mar 5, 2015

gamechanger87 said:
It is relevant to the X1 because the X1 will use a lot of DX12 features. I believe the big focus is that games made for DX12 on PC can easily be converted to the X1. The key to all of these APIs is how much devs are willing to do take advantage of it. They must decide if it is worth putting in all this work on DX12 when it won't work on the console.

I guess it will be up to MS to make sure the XB1 SDK takes advantage of whatever DX12 features it can. Thanks for the reply.

Poodlestrike · Mar 5, 2015

Hugh Swank said:
I'm genuinely interested in what the heck MS is talking about in regards to DX12 and the benefits for PC & XB1. I just wish they would be more clear & definitive. Here's the description of the conference;

"DirectX12 enables next generation games to deliver better performance with greater flexibility and control. This technical session goes deep into the DirectX12 APIs you can use to reduce CPU rendering overhead, manage GPU resource usage more efficiently, and express the most cutting-edge 3D graphics possible across the spectrum of Windows 10 devices. Whether you are building a game for the phone, PC, or Xbox - you don't want to miss this talk."

Why mention the Xbox in your description? The discussion must be relevant to the Xbox as well, right?

I think it ties into the Universal Apps thing; building a game in DX12 might not offer significant performance improvements over their existing low-level console API, but it will make porting things back and forth much, much easier.

Objectively Bad Opinion · Mar 5, 2015

Guys, that 20% is what you would normally get via a "game ready" driver. It's not like we've been missing this performance all this time.

If AMD had had a DX11 driver for Fable at the time the tests were run I'm sure the difference wouldn't be 20%.

This is why this doesn't apply to the Bone!

jmga · Mar 5, 2015

So Xbox ONE is not FL 12.1

orochi91 · Mar 5, 2015

Kezen said:
W10 is free for one whole year for W7 and W8 users.

I need some clarification:

Do you mean those that upgrade early will have to pay after a year?

Or do upgraders have a year window to download W10 for free, which they'll have to pay if they miss that one-year window?

Dictator93 · Mar 5, 2015

Objectively Bad Opinion said:
Guys, that 20% is what you would normally get via a "game ready" driver. It's not like we've been missing this performance all this time.

If AMD had had a DX11 driver for Fable at the time the tests were run I'm sure the difference wouldn't be 20%.

Em... if they take advantage of a DX12 specific API call or something... a game ready driver could not do that.

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