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hesido · May 6, 2015

omonimo said:
I though Developers said motion blur it's on ps4 but the AA cause some issue with it.

There's no linear blur for PS4 for any shots. PS4 does not display any motion blur of any sort.

XboxOne has motion blur applied to scenery but not the cars, according to the programmer who has implemented it. He didn't work on the PS4 one. Wish he did.

cgcg · May 6, 2015

Looks incredibly rough. The game drops frame even with one car on screen. Screen tearing has no place in a racing game it's incredibly distracting but here it's rubbing it in your face majority of the time. Xbone version is a complete mess. The analysis is pretty lenient to it.

Umm the thumbnail for the first video shows motion blur for the ps4 version. What are you talking about?

Gestault · May 6, 2015

Y2Kev said:
Embarrassing for Sms if they really tried to smack down df and misrepresent the final product.

Some of it was overstated after-the-fact by backers/fans, but overall it still came off as tacky for me.

omonimo · May 6, 2015

Three said:
Yep there is definitely an AF difference in the previous shots (before the patch) at this point it's difficult to know what is true and what isn't. DF are second-guessing the devs and the devs don't seem to be entirely open about the matter.

The is a shot from the previous DF article:

There is definitely an AF difference

I don't know. This picture seems suffer a sort of ghosting on ps4 to me.

omonimo · May 6, 2015

hesido said:
There's no linear blur for PS4 for any shots. PS4 does not display any motion blur of any sort.

XboxOne has motion blur applied to scenery but not the cars, according to the programmer who has implemented it. He didn't work on the PS4 one. Wish he did.

Well

It look like motion blur in this picture. It's strangely blurred the ground.

FunkyDealer · May 6, 2015

I don't know if I can handle that screen-tearing. I think I'll pass until the game receives some updates, as see if anything gets fixed.

Three · May 6, 2015

omonimo said:
I don't know. This picture seems suffer a sort of ghosting on ps4 to me.

So it's not an AF difference but the same ghosting? I'm not sure about that since it differs with distance and doesn't have two distinct frames even if the camera was rotating slowly.

hesido said:
There's no linear blur for PS4 for any shots. PS4 does not display any motion blur of any sort.

XboxOne has motion blur applied to scenery but not the cars, according to the programmer who has implemented it. He didn't work on the PS4 one. Wish he did.

It does, unless you think Motion Blur in the options menu does nothing at all.

sankt-Antonio · May 6, 2015

IMO a console racing game has to perform like this, be it 30fps or 60fps. Well, i can always buy a PC.

Hawk269 · May 6, 2015

orava said:
DC is closer to to sega rally than proper simulation though.

What? Sega Rally had some aspects that made it more sim like, even though it is an arcade game, when the track changed to asphalt from dirt, you could easily feel the difference in how the cards handled in Sega Rally. I love DC, but DC is just a pure 100% arcade racer where you basically brute force your way to first place, like more pure arcade racing games.

Lalalandia · May 6, 2015

Three said:
Yep there is definitely an AF difference in the previous shots (before the patch) at this point it's difficult to know what is true and what isn't. DF are second-guessing the devs and the devs don't seem to be entirely open about the matter.

The is a shot from the previous DF article:
<Really handy illustration or pre/post patch goes here in Three's post>
There is definitely an AF difference

Yeah there is definitely a difference there that I missed while eyeballing them, I think you may be on the money with the second-guessing comment. I think SMS need to sit down with DF and just do an actual in depth interview to clear all this up. It's impressive tech that they've delivered and I don't think the short comings make it a bad product regardless of the 'blur' and fps stuff. It's very unfortunate that things have gone down the way they have.

omonimo · May 6, 2015

Three said:
So it's not an AF difference but the same ghosting? I'm not sure about that since it differs with distance and doesn't have two distinct frames even if the camera was rotating slowly.

It's hard to tell for my eyes. But the white lines are quite strange I don't know if it's just worse AF.

Gestault · May 6, 2015

omonimo said:
I don't know. This picture seems suffer a sort of ghosting on ps4 to me.

Ghosting would mean seeing a double image.

Dictator93 · May 6, 2015

omonimo said:
Well

It look like motion blur in this picture. It's strangely blurred the ground.

That looks like an AF difference.

SMSRenderTeam · May 6, 2015

dark10x said:
To be honest, I think the SMS team DID do a good job and the results are generally solid...but the fact that DF was called out over the preview build when, in the end, the reported problems were not resolved is pretty unfair. Of course, I also understand that nobody wants to see their game torn apart like that either, but expectations were quite high. I will say that the difference between the final game and the build I played last August on PS4 is truly night and day. It's come much further than I expected.

I do think you guys should add an option to cap the frame-rate at 30fps for those that desire it. It would make rain races much more enjoyable due to the elimination of screen tearing.

We commented on the original article because there were factual errors and also because Ian (the CEO) wanted to respond after internal commentary by our community over at WMD.

Some of the errors we highlighted were:

- You stated that the game was using FXAA when it uses EQAA
- You stated that PS4 was using object based motion-blur when it does not - the motion-blur is the same between PS4/XB1. (The additional PS4 temporal AA step is not object based blur!)
- We stated that high numbers of AI could cause CPU bound scenario's on XB1 and we used the 7th core to eliminate these cases. This is somewhat acknowledged in your updated article.
- We also stated that tracks that had water elements (approximately 35% of the game e.g. Azure Coast, Circuit etc) had a significant optimisation with screen space reflections gaining >20% performance. This performance improvement is not reflected in your update.
- We've gone over here how our tracks are layered with different levels of Anisotropy. If there's more general feedback that we need to improve here, we will. *EDIT* I see there may be some confirmations of the white lines mentioned now in some cross posts.

As a graphics programmer with around 20+ years of AAA development I would not dream of making the sort 'concrete' analysis you do without using a GPU debugger - static image analysis is easy to get wrong, because it provides only limited information. It would make for vastly more accurate and interesting Journalism if you could use 1st Party tools to do a more in-depth analysis, don't you agree?

omonimo · May 6, 2015

Dictator93 said:
That looks like an AF difference.

Look the write. Seems more blurried too on ps4. I don't know what is it but AFshouldn't change in the close distance. Maybe it's the temporal AA.

Hawk269 · May 6, 2015

strata8 said:
On the XB1 it practically never hits 60. Can't see how they can claim it runs at 60 fps when during career mode it's at 50-55 fps and drops down to 40-45 fps when weather hits. Pretty bad.

Say what you will about Forza but when they say it's going to run at 60 or 30 it actually does, and never drops a frame while doing so.

I'm sure it's a good game and all, but jeez. Gonna wait to see how Forza 6 pans out.

With what PCars is doing, it just was way too much for consoles to handle. When you take into account weather, lighting and the amount of AI Cars on the track that is a lot to handle. We don't even know at how the physics/AI is running. Forza Motorsports has always maintained a high level of physics running under the hood while maintaining rock sold 60fps, but this also comes at the cost of car count, lighting and obviously weather.

For me, even though I have been a financial backer of Pcars since it was first announced, it just appears that it was to ambitious for console, the game is an incredible marvel on a good PC, but on console, a sim racer should never drop below 60fps.

Gestault · May 6, 2015

omonimo said:
Look the write. Seems more blurried too on ps4. I don't know what is it but AFshouldn't change in the close distance. Maybe it's the temporal AA.

This is starting partway up the screen, so the "short" distance is an optical illusion. What we're seeing is exactly in line with AF differences. The camera is stationary, and there's no motion vector, which means temporal AA would have nothing to do with it.

Skyzard · May 6, 2015

>World-class graphics running at 60 fps with up to 45 drivers onscreen

60fps, 45 drivers is what they advertised.

You get half.

c0de · May 6, 2015

SMSRenderTeam said:
As a graphics programmer with around 20+ years of AAA development I would not dream of making the sort 'concrete' analysis you do without using a GPU debugger - static image analysis is easy to get wrong, because it provides only limited information. It would make for vastly more accurate and interesting Journalism if you could use 1st Party tools to do a more in-depth analysis, don't you agree?

Oh, how often did I say that one would need something like profiling data to really know what's going on. Basically df does what we all do in df threads. Looking at results and then make (more or less) educated guesses to what and why is something happening.
That said, it would be nice to hear why performance on either console is like it is ;-)

cgcg · May 6, 2015

SMSRenderTeam said:
Some of the errors we highlighted were:

- We stated that high numbers of AI could cause CPU bound scenario's on XB1 and we used the 7th core to eliminate these cases. This is somewhat acknowledged in your updated article.

Interesting, is this not the case with the PS4 version? Why is that?

Chobel · May 6, 2015

SMSRenderTeam said:
We commented on the original article because there were factual errors and also because Ian (the CEO) wanted to respond after internal commentary by our community over at WMD.

Some of the errors we highlighted were:

- You stated that the game was using FXAA when it uses EQAA
- You stated that PS4 was using object based motion-blur when it does not - the motion-blur is the same between PS4/XB1. (The additional PS4 temporal AA step is not object based blur!)
- We stated that high numbers of AI could cause CPU bound scenario's on XB1 and we used the 7th core to eliminate these cases. This is somewhat acknowledged in your updated article.
- We also stated that tracks that had water elements (approximately 35% of the game e.g. Azure Coast, Circuit etc) had a significant optimisation with screen space reflections gaining >20% performance. This performance improvement is not reflected in your update.
- We've gone over here how our tracks are layered with different level of Anisotropy. If there's more general feedback that we need to improve here, we will. *EDIT* I see there may be some confirmations of the white lines mentioned now in some cross posts.

As a graphics programmer with around 20+ years of AAA development I would not dream of making the sort 'concrete' analysis you do without using a GPU debugger - static image analysis is easy to get wrong, because it provides only limited information. It would make for vastly more accurate and interesting Journalism if you could use 1st Party tools to do a more in-depth analysis, don't you agree?

There you go hesido.

Three · May 6, 2015

Lalalandia said:
Yeah there is definitely a difference there that I missed while eyeballing them, I think you may be on the money with the second-guessing comment. I think SMS need to sit down with DF and just do an actual in depth interview to clear all this up. It's impressive tech that they've delivered and I don't think the short comings make it a bad product regardless of the 'blur' and fps stuff. It's very unfortunate that things have gone down the way they have.

Just to clarify Lalalandia, the shots aren't pre and post patch. There actually aren't any post patch screenshots up on DF. Not sure why DF talked about it and offered no screenshots of it post patch in the performance analysis but I'm guessing they're saving it for the actual Faceoff if we're lucky. Hope it's not another case of mentioning it but providing no evidence like they did with GTAV races.

omonimo · May 6, 2015

Gestault said:
This is starting partway up the screen, so the "short" distance is an optical illusion. What we're seeing is exactly in line with AF differences. The camera is stationary, and there's no motion vector, which means temporal AA would have nothing to do with it.

I disagree. I'm not saying ps4 use per motion blur but temporal AA on ps4 could blurried more some details and I noticed even the close details appears more blurried on the ps4 in the ground.

Inuhanyou · May 6, 2015

And i was one of those who pooh pooed DF, trusting SMS's words about it just being an earlybuild. If this is how these perform, i don't wan to see the Wii U version

hesido · May 6, 2015

Three said:
So it's not an AF difference but the same ghosting? I'm not sure about that since it differs with distance and doesn't have two distinct frames even if the camera was rotating slowly.

It does, unless you think Motion Blur in the options menu does nothing at all.

I don't think P.Cars is trying to do anything other than blending frames, in the above pictures, from Gamersyde.

SMSRenderTeam said:
- the motion-blur is the same between PS4/XB1

I wish that was true. Here's a bad youtube shot but someone for the love of god point me to a Xbox One / Ps4 comparable video on Gamersyde and I'll find an even better shot:

In Xbox One, the "total" font and log is properly blurred. In PS4, you can read the font clearly (if you can get past the ghosting, that is.), not to mention the logo having 0 directional blur at that speed (a lot of distance covered in a single frame based on how far the ghost is).. Xbox One clearly has a proper motion blur implemented there.

I don't think how this qualifies as "same motion blur".

Wildarmsjecht · May 6, 2015

This thread is getting interesting indeed!

PCars looks great, but I've been enjoying DC. Not a HUGE racing fan, so I dont see myself getting 2 racers within a couple of years of each other, but definitely appreciate what SMS has done here.

That being said, what are the chances of a 30fps option being patched in?

Three · May 6, 2015

hesido said:
I don't think P.Cars is trying to do anything other than blending frames, in the above pictures, from Gamersyde.

Not sure why you've posted that. I've gathered there is temporal frame blending but we are talking about PS4 having motion blur too. It does.

Thanks to SMSRenderTeam for taking the time to come here and clarify things too.

Outrun · May 6, 2015

I understand that Forza 5's graphics are not on the same level as pCars'.

However, I like 60FPS locked in. I can imagine that the large dips in frame rate would be jarring.

I think that I will wait for FM6 or play pCars on PC.

Head.spawn · May 6, 2015

hesido said:
I don't think P.Cars is trying to do anything other than blending frames, in the above pictures, from Gamersyde.

Wow, what?

Why don't they just disable it and go with something a bit lighter on resources? The framerate and image quality would benefit greatly. If the framerate was stable, maybe those artifacts wouldn't be as noticeable, but I see this grossness when I turn it on in Far Cry and have things pushed past my computers limit.

Shin-Ra · May 6, 2015

Majanew said:
So avoid racing in the rain? lol, then why include rain if you can't fix your shit frame-rate? Says it also dips below 60 here and there with clear skies. And some screen tearing, too! Gross.

Yeah, I'll pass. I will give my $60 to Turn10 for FM6. I'm confident FM6 will hold 60fps just like the other FM games.

NoLongerALurker said:
Yuck. Will just wait for Forza 6.

If Turn 10's adding full time and weather simulation to Forza and effective anti-aliasing, anisotropic filtering, the full analysis is going to be legendary!

TylerDurden4321 · May 6, 2015

scitek said:
It's not like they couldn't lock it to 30 with vsync and also have an unwavering framerate on PS4. Even with 45 cars on the track and rainy weather.

yea, they give you so many options for everything, why not a 30fps vsync?

But in general, better to have inconsistent framerate (yet still over 30fps) in the most stressing races/moments than constant 30fps ALL THE TIME, even in time-trials with clear weather conditions that maybe could run at 90fps in theory.

qa_engineer · May 6, 2015

Shin-Ra said:
If Turn 10's adding full time and weather simulation to Forza and effective anti-aliasing, anisotropic filtering, the full analysis is going to be legendary!

all at 1080p.

Three · May 6, 2015

hesido said:
I wish that was true. Here's a bad youtube shot but someone for the love of god point me to a Xbox One / Ps4 comparable video on Gamersyde and I'll find an even better shot:

I don't think how this qualifies as "same motion blur".

Are you actually arguing with the devs with shots from youtube videos as evidence? Right after a post by the dev mentioning how static image analysis is easy to get wrong?

Nafai1123 · May 6, 2015

Damn, I was expecting much better performance, especially since they are planning for it to be Morpheus compatible. Frame drops in VR are really bad.

Dobsie · May 6, 2015

Can't they just limit the number of cars on track to say 30 under heavy rain conditions?
Can't really see myself doing 45 car races after the novelty wears off

sinnergy · May 6, 2015

hesido said:
I don't think P.Cars is trying to do anything other than blending frames, in the above pictures, from Gamersyde.

I wish that was true. Here's a bad youtube shot but someone for the love of god point me to a Xbox One / Ps4 comparable video on Gamersyde and I'll find an even better shot:

In Xbox One, the "total" font and log is properly blurred. In PS4, you can read the font clearly (if you can get past the ghosting, that is.), not to mention the logo having 0 directional blur at that speed (a lot of distance covered in a single frame based on how far the ghost is).. Xbox One clearly has a proper motion blur implemented there.

I don't think how this qualifies as "same motion blur".

The dev told you whats up with the PS4 version

, they add a extra aa step for AA which seems to introduce this effect, not to be an ass, but you begin to sound like a broken record.

hesido · May 6, 2015

Three said:
Not sure why you've posted that. I've gathered there is temporal frame blending but we are talking about PS4 having motion blur too. It does.

Thanks to SMSRenderTeam for taking the time to come here and clarify things too.

We need further clarifications. I don't see any motion blur. Please point me to any video / screenshot exhibiting motion blur other than the ghosting.

Since camera is fixed on a car in the middle of the screen, replays are the best place to show this, but I'll find a similar in cockpit view displaying motion blur in Xbox One vs Ps4.

Three said:
Are you actually arguing with the devs with shots from youtube videos as evidence? Right after a post by the dev mentioning how static image analysis is easy to get wrong?

sinnergy said:
The dev told you whats up with the PS4 version , they add a extra aa step for AA which seems to introduce this effect, not to be an ass, but you begin to sound like a broken record.

Well, I know I'm on a slippery ground here, but I stand by what I see. I mean there's no way I can "win" this because people don't see details in motion, they refuse to see the slowed down gifs, and outright dismiss static frame shots. How many consecutive frames does anyone need to be convinced that PS4's "motion blur" is not blurring anything like a motion blur effect would and is not the same as XBox One? I'm [edit:now] downloading a gamersyde video of Xbox one. Standby.

Hedrush · May 6, 2015

So all this motion blur/ ghosting nonsense can only be seen in a static picture or hugely slown down gif. Luckily we don't play the game this way eh.

Shin-Ra · May 6, 2015

If I was pushing for 60fps in a sim racer, motion blur and depth of field would probably be the first things to go.

Maybe bring them back in first person driver view only if the helmet occlusion can buy back some performance.

Metfanant · May 6, 2015

Head.spawn said:
Wow, what?

Why don't they just disable it and go with something a bit lighter on resources? The framerate and image quality would benefit greatly. If the framerate was stable, maybe those artifacts wouldn't be as noticeable, but I see this grossness when I turn it on in Far Cry and have things pushed past my computers limit.

Its funny you mention IQ, because our friend from SMS (appreciate all the interaction bud!) That worked on the Xbone version says he finds the look of the added PS4 temporal effect to improve overall IQ while playing the game

RootCause · May 6, 2015

sankt-Antonio said:
IMO a console racing game has to perform like this, be it 30fps or 60fps. Well, i can always buy a PC.

:O you've sold me on drive club.

Noobcraft · May 6, 2015

Hedrush said:
So all this motion blur/ ghosting nonsense can only be seen in a static picture or hugely slown down gif. Luckily we don't play the game this way eh.

Tell that to the people in the screenshot thread

Crayon · May 6, 2015

I happen to think the performance is more than adequate. What do want them to do? They could cap it to 30. You would rather have that? You don't think driveclub, with no opposing cars onscreen with no weather effects and no grand vista wouldn't go over 60 if it was uncapped? It's better than the many of the "aaa" corporate products it will compete with. Many of which have constant dips under 30.

Full disclosure: i'd rather have it capped at 30, but whatev. I would like to see more optimism for an honest, ambitious, crowd funded game. Especially on the ps4 side, where you guys get the better version and really have no alternatives for this style of game. Overall, I'm very motivated to look at project cars optimistically and look for reasons to buy it because I want MORE community games to take on the big publishers for the big dollars.

mrklaw · May 6, 2015

Crayon said:
I happen to think the performance is more than adequate. What do want them to do? They could cap it to 30. You would rather have that? You don't think driveclub, with no opposing cars onscreen with no weather effects and no grand vista wouldn't go over 60 if it was uncapped? It's better than the many of the "aaa" corporate products it will compete with. Many of which have constant dips under 30.

Full disclosure: i'd rather have it capped at 30, but whatev. I would like to see more optimism for an honest, ambitious, crowd funded game. Especially on the ps4 side, where you guys get the better version and really have no alternatives for this style of game. Overall, I'm very motivated to look at project cars optimistically and look for reasons to buy it because I want MORE community games to take on the big publishers for the big dollars.

same. I've bought on PC because of comments about it feeling like oldschool TOCA, and I want to see an alternative to the relatively staid combination of Forza and GT. Even if it just gets those guys to up their games it'll have been worth it.

El_Chino · May 6, 2015

Shin-Ra said:
If Turn 10's adding full time and weather simulation to Forza and effective anti-aliasing, anisotropic filtering, the full analysis is going to be legendary!

qa_engineer said:
all at 1080p.

Lettuce · May 6, 2015

Im sorry but a racing game with this amount of fluctuation in framerate is just a joke, and with screen tearing to boot.!! It would honestly be better to lock it at 30fps.

My PC purchase has been confirmed!!!

blastprocessor · May 6, 2015

dark10x said:
I wonder how DriveClub would hold up with an unlocked frame-rate? Something tells me we would see a fairly smooth 60fps in many situations but similar drops to Project CARS with weather and other effects. After all, that game holds 30fps 100% of the time so the general performance level has to be well above that.

I would like an unlocked Drive club option like Killzone SF. It would be good to hint this on twitter or eurogamer

cakely · May 6, 2015

sankt-Antonio said:
IMO a console racing game has to perform like this, be it 30fps or 60fps. Well, i can always buy a PC.

I liked the part where the framerate was 30.

Vinsanity. · May 6, 2015

MaLDo said:
Doubled aids

I'm by no stretch a graphics/performance expert. But if they turned off that temporal/ghosting effect, wouldn't it also have the side-benefit of increased performance on the PS4 version due to one less effect it will be spending resources on?

win-win right? They get rid of the ghosting AND we get a few more FPS on the PS4?

Or am I just a dumbass for thinking that?

MrJustinius said:
Le Mans with 40+ cars in the rain holding around 30 fps on consoles is actually impressive for me.

Those race settings even wreck some decent gaming PCs.

This. A full-field of 40+ cars with all kinds of particle/weather effects would kill most PCs, and is actually an impressive feat that it runs as well as it does on the PS4.

Noobcraft · May 6, 2015

dark10x said:
I wonder how DriveClub would hold up with an unlocked frame-rate? Something tells me we would see a fairly smooth 60fps in many situations but similar drops to Project CARS with weather and other effects. After all, that game holds 30fps 100% of the time so the general performance level has to be well above that.

I bet it would be close with few cars on the track. There are noticeable frame drops in Driveclub's photomode with multiple cars in view because it bumps all the cars up to their highest quality models.

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