• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

NPD Sales Results for November 2015 [Up3: Combined Hardware For PS4 + XB1 + Wii U]

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I remember my jaw dropping at Eternal Sonata's pre release scans and footage. At the time only being a 360 exclusive, it made me think it was utilizing all the power of the 360, and that MS was putting real weight behind the titles i really enjoyed.

Well, we know they dropped that like a bad habit the second they managed to secure FF13. Like that was their only real goal to begin with, to take a big name like that away from the previous market leader for brownie points or something.

THey didn't bother to invest anymore after that, and the devs they left floundering after their games crashed had to find other ways to recoup costs.

It was a shameful display for everyone involved.

These days, its no surprise to me that they tried to westernize Phantom Dust the eff up and then canned it. They are still in it for the name and not the content.
 

Fredrik

Member
If there's one studio that could do that and it wouldn't surprise me, it would be PlatinumGames tho.

They always seem to be on top of shit.
Maybe that's why their optimization is usually bad? When was the last time they released a game with a locked framerate?


Anyhow, the console market is in an interesting spot right now. PS4 sells like crazy being the most powerful console and XB1 is doing okay because of great exclusives.

But what happens next year if NX comes out and is more powerful than both the others, priced similarly, easy to develop for and have the best versions of multiplats plus new great versions of Zelda, Mario, and is backwards compatible with WiiU and Amiibo etc?

Sony will do fine I think since several big and great exclusives is already moved forward and PSVR is an interesting mid-gen addition.

But Xbox One... how is MS going to compete with no new interesting hardware releasing and some of their biggest first party exclusives has already been released this year?

To me it feels like NX will jump start next gen a bit earlier than at least MS thought, Sony has PSVR as a plan B but what is Microsoft's plan B? While they can still cut the price to be relevant it'll be tough to compete in the long run when the big first party releases are already out of the gate.
 

Apathy

Member
Wish Microsoft would actually release more during the rest of the year and not cram everything into one 3 month period. Thankfully they might learn from qb and see there is money to be made
 

Game Guru

Member
You know what I find most funny about these predictions on the lifetime sales of XB1... Anything less than 54 million should be horrifying to Microsoft as that would mean that the 3DS will have ultimately outsold the XB1. This would mean that, despite suffering from huge declines just from having to directly compete with mobile, Nintendo handhelds would still have more of an audience than Xbox consoles do.
 

IvanJ

Banned
Maybe that's why their optimization is usually bad? When was the last time they released a game with a locked framerate?


Anyhow, the console market is in an interesting spot right now. PS4 sells like crazy being the most powerful console and XB1 is doing okay because of great exclusives.

But what happens next year if NX comes out and is more powerful than both the others, priced similarly, easy to develop for and have the best versions of multiplats plus new great versions of Zelda, Mario, and is backwards compatible with WiiU and Amiibo etc?

Sony will do fine I think since several big and great exclusives is already moved forward and PSVR is an interesting mid-gen addition.

But Xbox One... how is MS going to compete with no new interesting hardware releasing and some of their biggest first party exclusives has already been released this year?

To me it feels like NX will jump start next gen a bit earlier than at least MS thought, Sony has PSVR as a plan B but what is Microsoft's plan B? While they can still cut the price to be relevant it'll be tough to compete in the long run when the big first party releases are already out of the gate.

You are assuming that NX will have the best version of multiplats.
It is more likely that it will have no version of multiplats.
 
late to the game but because of this gif, sony be like

untitled-1150q1m.gif



So is that supposed to be Microsoft outside the ring wanting a piece, pointing and talking trash? Lol, I am kidding of course.
 

Bgamer90

Banned
You are assuming that NX will have the best version of multiplats.
It is more likely that it will have no version of multiplats.

Even if it did, it's not going to get the core AAA multiplats audience. Nintendo has been too far behind trends. Very few are going to buy an Nintendo console to play sports, COD, etc. online with the Playstation and Xbox brands already being so well established for those genres.
 

RibMan

Member
Game4Life said:
There is no way it does only thirty three million. Are you saying it will only sell 16 million more consoles until next gen starts? That seems a super low prediction.

I absolutely predict the Xbox One will sell-through 19 million more consoles, bringing it's lifetime total to 33 million consoles sold. Over the past 2 months, I overestimated the Xbox One's sales performance in the US by hundreds of thousands of units and I underestimated the PS4's sales performance by hundreds of thousands of units as well.

It's become evident to me that the Xbox One has officially lost its strongest region to the PS4. With that in mind, I see continued stiff competition from the PS4 (pricing, third-party relations, tech) and a continued lack of blockbuster releases on the Xbox One as the powerful gust of wind against the Xbox in the US. Given that the Xbox One has microscopic marketshare in every major territory outside the US, it's become obvious that sales in NA will make up over half of Xbox One sales over the next 3 years. Given that the Xbox One has been out for two years in NA and has yet to crack 10 million console's sold-through, we can assume that the console's performance over the next two years to be similar, and we can further assume the console's sales will be severely impacted by the announcement of it's successor, thus the sales in the console's fifth year will be significantly less than the sales in it's prior years.

With all of this in mind, I think 33 million Xbox One's sold-through is a realistic prediction for end of life sales. Remember: all of this is a prediction based on published numbers and an extra large scoop of assumptions. Making numbers up is central to this dance.


Do you use consumer satisfaction as a test for quality or what?

You typically use customer satisfaction data to figure out what changes (if any) need to be made to a brand, product, or service. Low sales and a significant decline in sales are fantastic indicator's of customer dissatisfaction.

Marketing is a game of adjustments, so if you fail to make adjustments, you will not succeed in the marketplace. Customer dissatisfaction leads to diminished faith in your brand. The Xbox One being home to multiple high-profile failures is a pulsating red flag, as it indicates different target audiences (e.g. FPS fans, racing fans, TPS fans) are not supporting the brand with the same ferocity that they had a few short years ago. The Xbox is a brand that's in decline, and given that the biggest Xbox brand bullets (Halo 5 being the biggest) have missed, I predict that customer satisfaction in the Xbox brand will continue pointing down for the next 3 years -- thus, the Xbox brand satisfaction will be at an all-time low in 2018.

If you're Microsoft, then you're already aware that the Xbox One is going to perform similar to the N64 in sales. Figuring out what the Xbox Two should be has to start by figuring out why there was a significant decline in sales across Xbox branded products. You must start by figuring out why people are not boarding your ship and why the ones that had boarded are now jumping ship. Failure to do so will result in doubling down on mistakes, and repeating bad decisions is an excellent way to bury your brand.
 

Welfare

Member
With all of this in mind, I think 33 million Xbox One's sold-through is a realistic prediction for end of life sales. Remember: all of this is a prediction based on published numbers and an extra large scoop of assumptions. Making numbers up is central to this dance.

How many Xbox One's and PS4's do you think will be sold in the US when all is said and done?

Just a reminder that the worst selling 7th gen console in the US, the PS3, sold a bit over 26m.
 

etta

my hard graphic balls
You typically use customer satisfaction data to figure out what changes (if any) need to be made to a brand, product, or service. Low sales and a significant decline in sales are fantastic indicator's of customer dissatisfaction.
Uhmm, low sales are happening because the customer isn't there, not because the games aren't good. FM6, H5, ROTR, SO are all very well reviewed games, and had they been on the PS4 they would have sold equal to what they deserved based on their quality.
Apple doesn't sell nearly as many iPhones as Samsung does Galaxy because Samsung has so many models at varying price levels, but the iPhones are still in general the best reviewed phones and have the highest customer satisfaction.
Xbox One exclusives aren't selling as well as they should because of the system's situation, not because the customers aren't satisfied with them.
 

Bgamer90

Banned
It's become evident to me that the Xbox One has officially lost its strongest region to the PS4. With that in mind, I see continued stiff competition from the PS4 (pricing, third-party relations, tech) and a continued lack of blockbuster releases on the Xbox One as the powerful gust of wind against the Xbox in the US. Given that the Xbox One has microscopic marketshare in every major territory outside the US, it's become obvious that sales in NA will make up over half of Xbox One sales over the next 3 years. Given that the Xbox One has been out for two years in NA and has yet to crack 10 million console's sold-through, we can assume that the console's performance over the next two years to be similar, and we can further assume the console's sales will be severely impacted by the announcement of it's successor, thus the sales in the console's fifth year will be significantly less than the sales in it's prior years.

I agree that over 50% of the Xbox One's sales will be from North America, but I think it's faulty to base how the console will do in North America based on its first two years. The console will be cheaper, and have more games in the future. November 2015 was a bigger month for the system in North America than November 2014 was and this was with the deals for Xbox One not being as crazy + Sony putting a much greater effort in competing this Holiday season.



Marketing is a game of adjustments, so if you fail to make adjustments, you will not succeed in the marketplace. Customer dissatisfaction leads to diminished faith in your brand. The Xbox One being home to multiple high-profile failures is a pulsating red flag, as it indicates different target audiences (e.g. FPS fans, racing fans, TPS fans) are not supporting the brand with the same ferocity that they had a few short years ago. The Xbox is a brand that's in decline, and given that the biggest Xbox brand bullets (Halo 5 being the biggest) have missed, I predict that customer satisfaction in the Xbox brand will continue pointing down for the next 3 years -- thus, the Xbox brand satisfaction will be at an all-time low in 2018.

This doesn't make much sense to me. The system will have (far) more games and improved features at that point.
 

heidern

Junior Member
You know what I find most funny about these predictions on the lifetime sales of XB1... Anything less than 54 million should be horrifying to Microsoft as that would mean that the 3DS will have ultimately outsold the XB1. This would mean that, despite suffering from huge declines just from having to directly compete with mobile, Nintendo handhelds would still have more of an audience than Xbox consoles do.

DS outsold 360 almost 2:1 so 3DS outselling XB1 isn't surprising. Although I supposed 3DS ending up at around 70m with XB1 ending around 35m-40m to get a similar ratio as last gen would match your comment better. The thing that is horrifying to MS is the collapse of the Kinect and they'll have to come up with an entirely new strategy going forward seeing as they ditched it. The collapse of Halo maybe isn't as much of a problem as long as they can get multiformat COD/Destiny etc.
 
If you're Microsoft, then you're already aware that the Xbox One is going to perform similar to the N64 in sales. Figuring out what the Xbox Two should be has to start by figuring out why there was a significant decline in sales across Xbox branded products. You must start by figuring out why people are not boarding your ship and why the ones that had boarded are now jumping ship. Failure to do so will result in doubling down on mistakes, and repeating bad decisions is an excellent way to bury your brand.


The problem for Microsoft, I think, is that the answers to these questions are pretty simple, they're just not what Microsoft wants to hear: home consoles sell principally to dedicated hobbyists who care about graphics, price, and quality and variety of content. There's no way to cut corners with game development and remain successful based on brand loyalty and marketing, and there's no way to steer the audience towards behaviors that are more convenient for your other businesses if that means compromising the product's cost:performance ratio.

Microsoft doesn't want to hear this because gaming is a peripheral business for them. Microsoft's not in the gaming space to sell games, it's in the gaming space for reasons of ecosystem triangulation and a bunch of other stuff that barely makes sense even to their top execs. They'd like to just keep a couple studios running to churn out Halo/Forza/Gears in perpetuity rather than constantly invest in new IPs and new studios like Sony does, but that's just not going to work out. The division is going to require actual dedication and investment, not just the illusion of it, if it's to become successful.
 

Bgamer90

Banned
Imru’ al-Qays;189021941 said:
They'd like to just keep a couple studios running to churn out Halo/Forza/Gears in perpetuity rather than constantly investing in new IPs and new studios like Sony does, but that's just not going to work out. The division is going to require actual dedication and investment, not just the illusion of it, if it's to become successful.

This isn't true at all. They make new IPs. They aren't going to stop making Halo, Forza, and Gears though because the audience for those games obviously support the Xbox brand.

They made new IPs for the whole gen during the 360's life -- it's just that a significant portion of them after 2010 were for Kinect.
 
^ Why is that lucky again? :p



"Most of multiplats", which ones might those be?

I think a majority of these games actually made me forget how the smaller deficiencies in last gen added up to really show the difference.

Stuff like Witcher, the AC games, Just Cause, Battlefront, GTA V, etc. Looks like PS4 is sandwiched between crappy integrated gfx and an expensive ultrabook w/ dedicated mobile card for gaming.
 

heidern

Junior Member
Imru’ al-Qays;189021941 said:
The problem for Microsoft, I think, is that the answers to these questions are pretty simple, they're just not what Microsoft wants to hear: home consoles sell principally to dedicated hobbyists who care about graphics, price, and quality and variety of content.

Actually, in a way, that is what MS want to hear because the whole reason they got into videogames was because they saw Sony's attempt to take over the living room as a threat. If the Sony market is perpetually relegated to it's current niche then MS can safely ditch the Xbox division and give their share price a boost. Either that or spend less money on the division and only make a modest effort to fight Sony. Less chance of winning but at least they don't lose money and they have less distraction from enterprise.

Won't that put them in another situation where Nintendo will need to separate themselves from the pack, but by doing so alienate themselves from getting proper third-party support?

Nintendo is in a very precarious spot.

Yeah, there's a risk either way. Sony are good at the core market so it's an uphill battle there. The casual gamer has access to free games on tablet and mobile so it's an uphill battle there too. I wouldn't say they're in a precarious spot because if they control costs they can make profits even on console sales of only 10m-15m enthusiasts. But that would be a waste of resources(the best game developers on the planet) if they can't expand their console audience they'll just bring their handheld and console closer together and make the handheld the lead platform for all games with the console a niche bonus. This might reduce the console audience further but they could get a big boost to their handheld audience.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Stuff like Witcher, the AC games, Just Cause, Battlefront, GTA V, etc. Looks like PS4 is sandwiched between crappy integrated gfx and an expensive ultrabook w/ dedicated mobile card for gaming.

Based on your examples there, i can only deduce that your trolling a bit too hard there.
 
Actually, in a way, that is what MS want to hear because the whole reason they got into videogames was because they saw Sony's attempt to take over the living room as a threat. If the Sony market is perpetually relegated to it's current niche then MS can safely ditch the Xbox division and give their share price a boost. Either that or spend less money on the division and only make a modest effort to fight Sony. Less chance of winning but at least they don't lose money and they have less distraction from enterprise.

That's a good point. Keep the marketing people employed and spinning as hard as they can to cover up the lack of investment in first-party - you'll lose market share, but maybe you'll still keep enough of it for this reduced level of ambition.

Maybe that's what they're doing right now.

Yeah, there's a risk either way. Sony are good at the core market so it's an uphill battle there. The casual gamer has access to free games on tablet and mobile so it's an uphill battle there too. I wouldn't say they're in a precarious spot because if they control costs they can make profits even on console sales of only 10m-15m enthusiasts. But that would be a waste of resources(the best game developers on the planet) if they can't expand their console audience they'll just bring their handheld and console closer together and make the handheld the lead platform for all games with the console a niche bonus. This might reduce the console audience further but they could get a big boost to their handheld audience.

Is selling 10-15m home consoles + first-party software actually more profitable than just going third-party and selling to a much larger audience on the other two consoles, do you think? Especially when you consider that Nintendo could probably drive a pretty hard bargain with Sony and Microsoft with regard to licensing fees.
 

RibMan

Member
How many Xbox One's and PS4's do you think will be sold in the US when all is said and done?

Just a reminder that the worst selling 7th gen console in the US, the PS3, sold a bit over 26m.

By "all is said and done" I will assume you mean the end of life for each product. Here are my predictions:

Xbox One = 22.5 million consoles
PS4 = 45 million consoles

Do those numbers seem reasonable?
 

heidern

Junior Member
Imru’ al-Qays;189024602 said:
Is selling 10-15m home consoles + first-party software actually more profitable than just going third-party and selling to a much larger audience on the other two consoles, do you think?

It doesn't matter because selling those first party games to 50-100m handhelds owners will be much more profitable than wasting their time trying to compete with GTA/Fifa/COD on Sony/MS consoles to an audience that might not be too interested in their games. Not to mention peripherals+Amiibo+licensing fees and much lower development and thus marketing costs.

Nintendo third-party ambitions will be directed towards Apple/Google and the billions of smart devices.
 

Fredrik

Member
You are assuming that NX will have the best version of multiplats.
It is more likely that it will have no version of multiplats.
Everything is ported down from PC using the same or very similar graphics engines, if NX is more powerful than PS4/XB1 and easy to work with it, why would there be no multiplats?
Nintendo is too scared to lose money, they obviously won't end the generation early because of low sales and third party support and spend big money on a new hardware launch unless they know they're sitting on something good.
 
Everything is ported down from PC using the same or very similar graphics engines, if NX is more powerful than PS4/XB1 and easy to work with it, why would there be no multiplats?
Nintendo is too scared to lose money, they obviously won't end the generation early because of low sales and third party support and spend big money on a new hardware launch unless they know they're sitting on something good.

Audience. There has to be an audience for third parties to sell too. Sony & MS has spent generations cultivating that audience. A faster processor is not going to do that for Nintendo.
 

Welfare

Member
By "all is said and done" I will assume you mean the end of life for each product. Here are my predictions:

Xbox One = 22.5 million consoles
PS4 = 45 million consoles

Do those numbers seem reasonable?

Well, the Wii did >41 million, and the PS4 is not even on pace to do that much. It's outpacing the 360 right now, which has sold >42m, but that was thanks to the Kinect halfway in its lifecycle.

The Xbox One is going to be >11m by the end of the year, and depending on how 2016 goes, it could stay flat or even doing better than 2015, so it'll probably end up at ~16m at the end of 2016. If the next Xbox is 2018, 22.5m might be low for where it'll end, but if the next Xbox is 2019, I can see the Xbox One going comfortably over 25 million.

I personally think neither console is hitting 40m, with the PS4 ending between 33-35m and Xbox One ending 28-30m.
 
It doesn't matter because selling those first party games to 50-100m handhelds owners will be much more profitable than wasting their time trying to compete with GTA/Fifa/COD on Sony/MS consoles to an audience that might not be too interested in their games. Not to mention peripherals+Amiibo+licensing fees and much lower development and thus marketing costs.

Nintendo third-party ambitions will be directed towards Apple/Google and the billions of smart devices.

Doubling down on handhelds is a risky bet, to say the least - especially if it means the home console will be playing second fiddle.

And I'm not sure that Nintendo would have much difficulty selling software on PlayStation and Xbox: they've got an unimpeachable brand and the ability to single-handedly fill a bunch of niches that aren't currently present on the major consoles. A lot of people who would be perfectly willing to buy Mario or Zelda on their PlayStation just aren't willing to buy a new console exclusively to play Mario or Zelda.

The problem with smartphones is that Nintendo can't make the kind of games it's historically made without physical controls and relatively high software prices. Also, if their strategy is to double down on the handheld market it seems like it would make more sense to go third party in a segment (home consoles) that doesn't directly compete with the handheld market.

I get that Nintendo really, really doesn't want to become a third-party dev on the other home consoles, but I still don't see how it's a good business move to continue to prevent potential customers from buying Miyamoto and co's games.

Audience. There has to be an audience for third parties to sell too. Sony & MS has spent generations cultivating that audience. A faster processor is not going to do that for Nintendo.

Indeed. Following my comment above, I think the number of underserved Nintendo fans on Sony and Microsoft consoles is much higher than the number of underserved core gamers on Nintendo consoles.
 

kinoki

Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
Everything is ported down from PC using the same or very similar graphics engines, if NX is more powerful than PS4/XB1 and easy to work with it, why would there be no multiplats?
Nintendo is too scared to lose money, they obviously won't end the generation early because of low sales and third party support and spend big money on a new hardware launch unless they know they're sitting on something good.

I don't know why anyone would assume that "NX" would be more powerful than PS4/XBO since that's a sure fine way to make Nintendo go belly up. That's the kind of thinking that'll continue the downward trend of sales. The hardcore Nintendo fans are diminishing few and too few to maintain a console of that cost. If Nintendo wants to make a profit they want to target a different audience with a different type of hardware.
 

heidern

Junior Member
Imru’ al-Qays;189026717 said:
Also, if their strategy is to double down on the handheld market it seems like it would make more sense to go third party in a segment (home consoles) that doesn't directly compete with the handheld market.

Well, that's the thing, home consoles do compete with handhelds. It's a battle that consoles lost in Japan. It's the reason why the XL model is so popular, people are using their handhelds as their primary gaming device at home, perhaps with little to no use outside. Nintendo themselves have lost some of their console audience to handhelds which is why you see things like Smash 3DS.

The double-down on handhelds is also a double down on lower cost devices. Both would be sub $200, the console might even be sub $150(This would of course give them a shot at increasing their console sales significantly). The handheld may be given TV compatibility to further directly compete with consoles. The shared library is a strengthened library for both which could also increase sales for both which means more hardware profit and more first and third party games sold. And they don't need to have the AAA budgets they would if they switch to AAA consoles which means shorter development times allowing more games released as well as less development cost leading to less marketing cost doubly leading to more profit.
 

Game Guru

Member
DS outsold 360 almost 2:1 so 3DS outselling XB1 isn't surprising. Although I supposed 3DS ending up at around 70m with XB1 ending around 35m-40m to get a similar ratio as last gen would match your comment better. The thing that is horrifying to MS is the collapse of the Kinect and they'll have to come up with an entirely new strategy going forward seeing as they ditched it. The collapse of Halo maybe isn't as much of a problem as long as they can get multiformat COD/Destiny etc.

There is no new strategy. Both Nintendo and MS basically suffer from opposite problems in regards to their game libraries.

Nintendo has a ton of popular exclusive games which doesn't matter since they lack all the popular multiplatform releases. Hence the fans of those popular multiplatform releases avoid Nintendo.

Microsoft has all the popular muliplatform releases which doesn't matter since they lack popular exclusive games. The fans of those popular multiplatform releases can get those games on the more popular PS4.
 
Well, the Wii did >41 million, and the PS4 is not even on pace to do that much. It's outpacing the 360 right now, which has sold >42m, but that was thanks to the Kinect halfway in its lifecycle.

It's possible that PSVR could be the PS4's Kinect in terms of sales. Really depending on the price of it.
 
Yeah, but it won't be like that forever. PS4 is not getting 150 million units. It'll be lucky to get 100 million at its final tally

lucky? More like very unlucky if 100 million doesn't happen. If MS doesn't release a new XBOX One in 2018 (forcing Sony's hand to do the same), 100 million at the end of its life cycle (somewhere around 2023!) seems to be a no brainer right now.
 

Fredrik

Member
Audience. There has to be an audience for third parties to sell too. Sony & MS has spent generations cultivating that audience. A faster processor is not going to do that for Nintendo.
It's a tricky situation but I think the audience is there, it's just that the hardware isn't, the 360 audience were fast to jump ship when the other ship was better and I think the audience will jump ship again if every DF Face-Off ends with "As for consoles, NX is the clear winner, both in visuals and performance" and people on the streets/schools/work etc talks about how the NX version is the best.
Nintendo just need to get the right multiplat there early on to showcase this and the discussions, comparisons, the right marketing and word of mouth will do the rest.

Think of it this way, if the performance doesn't matter then why does just about how every PS4/XB1 comparison discussion end the same way? There is the usual talk about sub 1080p, sub 30fps etc, someone says that they like the XB1 version because they like the controller more or that's what his/hers friends are buying, but in the end it's a celebration about how awesome PS4 is and how crappy XB1 is.

Sony knows this, that's why they're hyping performance so much, been doing it for several generations. (The handhelds is another story though, not sure what's happening there tbh)

Now swap PS4 with NX in this way of thinking. If every game on NX has better visuals, better performance, every comparison end the same way, would you still sit happily on the fence with your "crappy" PS4 version when "everyone else" is celebrating the awesome NX version?

Nintendo just need to get the snowball rolling, the first games are extremely important, first showcase must be a slam dunk, good enough to sway over the cranky naysayers who will dissect everything to find the tiniest negative and blow it out of proportion. It won't be easy but like I said, Nintendo wouldn't end the generation this early unless they knew they were sitting on something good, otherwise it would probably be smarter economically to just sit this one out and wait for the real end of the generation to come.


One problem for NX and consoles in general though is that PCs are getting more popular with great controller support, and they are entering the living room too now. I'm currently playing Witcher 3 with PC-Ultra visuals at 60fps with a wireless controller, and I can do it through a dead silent box in my living room.
Why would I want the ~30fps console version?
This is a question that all console makers need to have an answer to on a bigger scale in the coming years or the performance hyping at big events will be answered with laughter instead of cheering.
 
I don't think the PS4 needs to get all that slimmer, but a new design is always a nice momentum boost.

Regarding my PS4 I'm more be interested in a PS4 Fat.

30-35 million seems way too low for the XB1. That would be around half of where I expect the 3DS to end up (65 millionish) when it still has lots of big games coming, even if multiplatform. I'm thinking 40-45 million, with 50 million not out of the question.

Doesn't XBOX One currently perform better than its 80+ million predecessor? Why wouldn't it reach at least 60+ million units at the end of its life cycle?
 

Welfare

Member
Doesn't XBOX One currently perform better than its 80+ million predecessor? Why wouldn't it reach at least 60+ million units at the end of its life cycle?

There isn't going to be a Kinect equivalent 5 years into the Xbox One's life cycle. It's entirely possible that 3 years from now we're going to see the next Xbox.
 

bombshell

Member
Wouldn't those people have anticipated they'd jump ship and buy a PS4 during the holiday as it's the cheapest?

Well, there's several scenarios where the early access DLC plan not having started yet is likely to still have a (small? bigger?) impact.

Take Average Joe, who only plays Calla Doody. He could

A) not follow gaming news, so he happily bought Black Ops 3 on Xbox One thinking the same deal that has been in place for a decade will still provide him with early DLC.

B) think he's strong, so he happily bought Black Ops 3 on Xbox One thinking that he would have no trouble waiting 30 days for every single DLC drop, but because he only plays Calla Doody immediately gets impatient and wants to play the DLC now instead of wait.

C) watch the Calla Doody World League being played on Playstation 4 and because of his long time dream to go pro, he now has no choice.

D) have a weak friend who fits either A) or B) or C) and wants to follow him to play with him.


All of the above could also end up only having a very small impact on Black Ops 3, but a much bigger impact on Calla Doody 2016.
 
Gears will definitely be a Fall game but I would be surprised to see it release in late October or early November.

Yes, as we discussed a couple of weeks ago, MS sure have learned a hard lesson during this holiday season ("don't lineup your major 1st party IPs against the likes of Fallout 4 and CoD BO). Better save Gears 4 for Q1/17 than burning it during BF havoc (if it's not ready for an October release.)

We've also learned that price really matters during holiday sales mayhem, more than anything else. Might be much, much cleverer to come up with a $249 Halo 5 BF bundle than a $299 bundle with Gears 4 (and yes, wynotboth.gif).
 
There isn't going to be a Kinect equivalent 5 years into the Xbox One's life cycle. It's entirely possible that 3 years from now we're going to see the next Xbox.

Also look at the trends in the graphs, the Xbox One is way front loaded, but the trend is that the Xbox one will fall behind the 360 in the next 18 months, it fell behind the PS3 last quarter, and thats even before the kinect spike.

Of course graphs are less and less reliable because of the no numbers situation, thats probably one of the reasons why they're stopping numbers, because they know it will show when they start to fall into the selling less than 360 territory, its no coincidence that the quarter they'd have fallen below the PS3, they stopped giving shipped numbers.
 
Regarding my PS4 I'm more be interested in a PS4 Fat.



Doesn't XBOX One currently perform better than its 80+ million predecessor? Why wouldn't it reach at least 60+ million units at the end of its life cycle?

The Xbox One had a much stronger launch than the Xbox 360, in part because it was actually available. It took 6 months for the 360 to sell about as much as the Xbox One did in 2, you just couldn't find 360's for months. The Xbox 360 was only really starting to get its momentum around 2 years in, where it looks like Xbox One sales are fading overall outside of US/UK holiday sale spikes.
 

AniHawk

Member
Doesn't XBOX One currently perform better than its 80+ million predecessor? Why wouldn't it reach at least 60+ million units at the end of its life cycle?

because the 360 only reached those numbers with kinect and a very long shelf life. it was on the market for 8 years before the xbox 1 came out too. i don't see the xb1 having as long a shelf life. it's also unrealistic to expect something else like kinect suddenly propelling sales like it did.

just us sales:

2005: 0.6m
2006: 3.9m
2007: 4.6m
2008: 4.7m
2009: 4.8m
2010: 6.8m (kinect launches)
2011: 7.3m
2012: 5.3m
2013: 3.1m
2014: 1.3m

the united states was microsoft's biggest market. of the 85-88 million 360s sold, 45 million were sold in the united states. the xb1 looks to be even more lopsided in favor of the united states than the 360 was, with its nearly 10 million units sold out of 17 million or so shipped coming from that market.

there were 40 million 360s shipped by may of 2010. that's the number i would be planning my estimates around.
 

Fredrik

Member
I don't know why anyone would assume that "NX" would be more powerful than PS4/XBO since that's a sure fine way to make Nintendo go belly up. That's the kind of thinking that'll continue the downward trend of sales. The hardcore Nintendo fans are diminishing few and too few to maintain a console of that cost. If Nintendo wants to make a profit they want to target a different audience with a different type of hardware.
The board members want them to become more competitive and PS4/XB1 won't be all that powerful in 2016 so that's why I assume that NX will beat them in that area, otherwise it would just be another WiiU situation or an attempt to recapture the Wii audience and possibly fail even harder.
 

Steroyd

Member
Doesn't XBOX One currently perform better than its 80+ million predecessor? Why wouldn't it reach at least 60+ million units at the end of its life cycle?

Because it's doubtful this generation will last 8 years, and with Xbox One being 2nd place a new console will most likely kill Xbox One sales like we saw PS3 when the PS4 came out, not to mention Xbox is doing worse outside of the US+UK and unless there's that 1% China that we're unaware of that slack isn't going to get picked up.
 
because the 360 only reached those numbers with kinect and a very long shelf life. it was on the market for 8 years before the xbox 1 came out too. i don't see the xb1 having as long a shelf life. it's also unrealistic to expect something else like kinect suddenly propelling sales like it did.

just us sales:

2005: 0.6m
2006: 3.9m
2007: 4.6m
2008: 4.7m
2009: 4.8m
2010: 6.8m (kinect launches)
2011: 7.3m
2012: 5.3m
2013: 3.1m
2014: 1.3m

the united states was microsoft's biggest market. of the 85-88 million 360s sold, 45 million were sold in the united states. the xb1 looks to be even more lopsided in favor of the united states than the 360 was, with its nearly 10 million units sold out of 17 million or so shipped coming from that market.

there were 40 million 360s shipped by may of 2010. that's the number i would be planning my estimates around.
I'm still massively suspicious of rrod inflating 360 figures. Before MS started doing a wholesale replacement you'd hear of so many people who bought a replacement.
 

RibMan

Member
Uhmm, low sales are happening because the customer isn't there, not because the games aren't good. FM6, H5, ROTR, SO are all very well reviewed games, and had they been on the PS4 they would have sold equal to what they deserved based on their quality.
Apple doesn't sell nearly as many iPhones as Samsung does Galaxy because Samsung has so many models at varying price levels, but the iPhones are still in general the best reviewed phones and have the highest customer satisfaction.
Xbox One exclusives aren't selling as well as they should because of the system's situation, not because the customers aren't satisfied with them.

Ah, your perspective is interesting, but you're looking at it backwards! First, let's get to some answers to our discussion by asking some questions.

Why is the customer not there? Is the customer not there because your competitor is doing exceptionally well, or is the customer not there because your brand is unsatisfactory to them? Random, but does a reviewer's opinion carry more weight than the opinion of thousands of actual users?

It's easy to blame the customers for the mistakes of the business -- in fact, that's one of the first lines of defense for a failed product. "Our stuff was ahead of its time", "They just don't get it", "What more do they want?", etc. By doing this, you are effectively saying "Our stuff is perfectly fine as it is". Arrogance and ignorance are an extraordinarily dangerous combination in a business. When you can do no wrong then you can never improve, when you can never improve then you can never grow. If your business cannot grow then you are in biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig trouble.

The answer as to why Halo 5, Forza 6, and Rise of the Tomb Raider are high-profile failures isn't because the customer isn't there and is busy playing Knack. The answer as to why they're failures is because the Halo, Forza, and Tomb Raider brands have been damaged due to a number of severe miscalculations by the Xbox business.

You cannot forget the fundamental truth of branding: a brand is your identity! If your identity is tarnished then people will not want to interact with you. Let's start with the first-party stuff. The Masterchief Collection and Halo 4, part of the Halo brand, are the predecessors to Halo 5. Do you remember what people were saying about Halo 4 not feeling like a Halo game -- being a departure from Bungie's way of things? Since the Masterchief Collection is fairly recent, I'm going to assume you recall the large community outcry over the game not working? Forza 6, part of the Forza brand, is the successor to Forza 5 and Forza Horizon 2. You must remember what the reaction was to Forza 5 incorporating microtransactions? What about people saying Forza Horizon 2 was just like Forza Horizon 1 -- do you believe making the same game and expecting customer satisfaction is realistic?

Now let's talk about Rise of the Tomb Raider. Do you believe fans of the Tomb Raider brand were satisfied by the decision to turn Tomb Raider into Uncharted Lite? Do you think that Microsoft's decision to lock the Tomb Raider brand to their brand (for an unspecified amount of time [at the time]) was a decision that was met with open arms by the Tomb Raider community -- the very same community that showed up to support the last two multi-platform entries? Do you believe that positioning Rise of the Tomb Raider right next to Fallout 4 was a decision that inspired faith in Tomb Raider fans, or do you believe it was a decision that led to fans actually questioning if Microsoft was trying to kill the brand? Did Microsoft satisfy fans of the Tomb Raider brand by making the Tomb Raider bundle exclusive to one retailer?

News items, written articles, Vines, podcast impressions, threads on Neogaf: these are all points of contact between your brand and your customer. Nobody here is fooled by a Metacritic score: we all know what happened with the last Halo games, we all know what happened with the last Forza games, and we all know what happened with Rise of the Tomb Raider aka the worst example of affinity marketing since Haze on PS3. If people are turned off by the brand then they're out. If people who play the game don't like the game then they're out. We can either spend all day claiming the customer's didn't show up because they all went to PlayStation, or we can realize that there are millions of people with Xbox One's, and the reality is the customer's didn't show up because numerous miscalculations by Microsoft have left them unsatisfied with the respective brands.

Second, since this is an NPD thread, allow me to put out a sales-related question pertaining to the above discussion: Do you believe the PS4 version of RotTR will perform much better than the Xbox One version, given that your reasoning for the atrocious performance on Xbox is due to the much smaller installbase? Since the Xbox One installbase will be higher next year and beyond, do you believe Halo 6, Forza 7, and Fall of the Tomb Raider will do better in North America than Halo 5, Forza 6, and RotTR?

To tie this entire block of text back to my original prediction, I'll state what I believe is happening and what we'll see happen at the end of the generation. Hopefully the following can give you my perspective on what the released sales numbers mean. Globally, the Xbox One is a failed product that has hurt the Xbox brand. What's happening in regions outside of NA is that people are choosing to exclusively support the PS4 because due to a number of public and private miscalculations, the Xbox brand is now considered unfriendly to people who want to play videogames. This is just what I believe is happening. The effect of this is by the end of the generation, the Xbox brand equity is going to be in the toilet. The value of the Xbox brand to consumers is going to be lower than its ever been, and the value of Xbox hardware to Microsoft is going to be lower than the amount of hours spent trying to play Uncharted 4 on Xbox One. I think by the end of this generation, we're going to fully realize that the Xbox Two requires Sony to make PS3-era level of mistakes in order to have a shot. As always, anything can happen and I could be completely wrong in everything, but I have a feeling that the more deliberately convoluted press releases we get from Microsoft, the more we'll realize how badly Microsoft handled the Xbox brand this generation.
 
Top Bottom