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EU- Referendum for the UK..... Neogaf UK are you in or out?
- Thread starter Tak3n
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itsbenoclock
Member
I don't really get why some people in this thread are against freedom of movement and immigration, it's one of the best parts of the EU...
Bananajama
Banned
As is - out
Waiting to hear both solid arguments though rather than the hearsay we currently get
Waiting to hear both solid arguments though rather than the hearsay we currently get
this is why
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-35604776
a whole town ruined because one companies exploitation and landlords creating shanty towns... of course your answer will be that the police and council need to control it, but we know that is not possible..
The area might of been shit before (I don't know the area at all) but if you have lived in that area your whole life and you see it become this, I expect you would be against mass uncontrolled immigration
My long-term girlfriend is French (also dual American) so I'm bias by default since living and working in the UK would possibly not be as straightforward for her. Plus I enjoy the freedom of movement myself since we often go to her parents and Paris.
I personally can't see any benefit to the UK leaving the EU. I'm sure there are ways of solving our problems without such a seemingly knee-jerk referendum.
I'll be voting to stay in.
Incidentally we plan to go State-side next year or the year after, so if this all goes up shit creek we'll just try to move sooner.
I personally can't see any benefit to the UK leaving the EU. I'm sure there are ways of solving our problems without such a seemingly knee-jerk referendum.
I'll be voting to stay in.
Incidentally we plan to go State-side next year or the year after, so if this all goes up shit creek we'll just try to move sooner.
this might help, both viewpoints are put fairly and balanced
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32793642
The referendum is about leaving the political union, basically if we voted to leave we would be still be an EEA member but operating under the only worthwhile part of EU, the EFTA.
We could negotiate deals for Trade that benefit us and allow us to prop up our home grown industry as opposed to having to conform to EU whilst Germany/France/Italy gets to circumvent the laws they set up.
Bananajama
Banned
Read it already - need moar!
Bananajama
Banned
its a huge loss for the IN vote too. His personality has influence across a decent swathe of the population.
Not massively of course. But it could be enough for a percentage point or two
yeah the PM even tried to woo him back on the Andrew Marr show, Nigel Farage told the papers today he can never be PM if he goes for the 'in' campaign
The Irony hey, David Cameron wanted you young un's nowhere near the general election, he would gladly fuck you all over forever while he has the pensioner vote..
now suddenly he wants and needs you
Can someone explain something to me.
The out campaign keep going on about how, away from the EU, we'll be able to sign trade deals with other countries like America and China. But what's stopping us from doing that now? Does being in the EU somehow prevent us from having what trade deals we like with countries outside the EU? Do all our trade deals have to be approved by the EU or something? I thought we were already signing trade deals with China and India, so how is leaving the EU supposed to suddenly enable us to sign incredible global trade agreements?
Who's to say those countries would even want to do business with us? Even outside the EU I can't see Russia wanting to do business with us anytime soon unless we made a grovelling apology for calling Putin out on his bullshit and trade deals were ridiculously favoured towards Russia. Unless we disastrously end up with Comrade Corbin in charge then that just isn't going to happen.
The out campaign keep going on about how, away from the EU, we'll be able to sign trade deals with other countries like America and China. But what's stopping us from doing that now? Does being in the EU somehow prevent us from having what trade deals we like with countries outside the EU? Do all our trade deals have to be approved by the EU or something? I thought we were already signing trade deals with China and India, so how is leaving the EU supposed to suddenly enable us to sign incredible global trade agreements?
Who's to say those countries would even want to do business with us? Even outside the EU I can't see Russia wanting to do business with us anytime soon unless we made a grovelling apology for calling Putin out on his bullshit and trade deals were ridiculously favoured towards Russia. Unless we disastrously end up with Comrade Corbin in charge then that just isn't going to happen.
Frankfurter
Member
Yeah that's gonna work just great for you. Instead of being in the EU and being able to directly influence the direction the EU is taking, you'll actually just be left with "Take it or leave it options". The Switzerland (Norway etc.) strategy sounds pretty good, until you realize that whenever you negotiate a deal with the EU, it means that you also have to operate under the rules the European Union set.
Any source on the whole 'We have to conform, while Ger/Fr/It profit'?
The Irony hey, David Cameron wanted you young un's nowhere near the general election, he would gladly fuck you all over forever while he has the pensioner vote..
now suddenly he wants and needs you
Yeah I'm pretty aware of the situation. Entertaining him to see win a GE based mostly on ignorant voters, then have to get them to buy into Europe.
Sturgeon: Leave vote could trigger independence referendum
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624750
(Though she says she still doesn't want Brexit to happen)
This guy I know at work is convinced Brexit is the best way to get Scotland to stay in the union somehow. He is a bit of a weirdo about stuff like this though.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624750
(Though she says she still doesn't want Brexit to happen)
This guy I know at work is convinced Brexit is the best way to get Scotland to stay in the union somehow. He is a bit of a weirdo about stuff like this though.
I'm in a similar position to Sturgeon. But I think the snp are overestimating the love for the eu in Scotland. None of my friends know anything that isn't in the sun or b.s like that.
We stay and England leaves should trigger a independence vote for all the constituents. I think we'd win that but honestly I'd rather avoid all that b.s and just have all of us vote to stay.
CyclopsRock
Member
Yes - it's a large, single market. As such, it's impossible for a single country to sign a trade agreement, because as soon as a good or "service" exists within an EU country, it effectively can travel to any part of the EU as though it never left the country. When it comes to trade, the EU is a single market - there are no individual countries. That's why the sanctioning of Russia had to occur at the EU level, not various domestic levels, for example.
She is Captain Obvious, that was always going to be said, only helps the out campaign as anyone who wants a independent Scotland could vote politically
I want independence but fuck that gamble. Too dangerous.
She has no legal mandate to call a referendum, and like it or not she requires permission from Westminster.
It's also little more than spite and a bad move in the long run, since an independent Scotland will never be able to join the EU anyway, Spain won't allow it.
She can call a referendum it just isn't binding. If it went for independence you think the uk is gonna stop us?
No one is going to vote out for this.
If they live in Scotland they need Scotland to vote stay to trigger a referendum.
If they live in rUK they probably care more about whether or not rUK is in the EU anyway.
Now the referendum is over can we just admit the whole 'Scotland wouldn't be allowed in the EU' thing was bullshit? It's pretty evident No vote was far more likely to end with Scotland outside the EU now.
In, albeit somewhat reluctantly. The EU is undemocratic, unaccountable and most likely highly corrupt, while free movement is a terrible idea while there's such economic imbalance between so many of the countries. I'm also not mad about the political side, with the EU (again, the largely undemocractic and unaccountable EU) being able to pass legislation that affect every country in the union - although personally, rather than rationally, I can't deny that given how godawful our government is and its willingness to write off any protections for the average person if the Tories' affluent sponsors don't approve, having the EU as a safety net in certain regards (net neutrality) is a relief. The main reasons I'd vote 'in', were there any chance of my being in the country at the time at least, would be for the obvious and enormous trade benefits, as well as the fact that it gives the country some influence - albeit not much, in a union dominated by Germany - on a global stage where we wouldn't stand a chance on our own vs US, China, Russia, etc. On balance, better in than out.
CyclopsRock
Member
Pretty much. Spain ignores the Catalonian referendums (or, rather, uses them as data). The most it would do - and this could be just as effective - is to force Westminster into holding another binding referendum.
Workers rights will disappear bit by bit if a no vote wins. You want the tories in charge of your rights? The party that seriously considered at will dismissals?
PdotMichael
Banned
It's a tie between "No" and " I'm not from the UK but feel a compulsive need to vote in this poll" right now.
If we voted out the uk public would say "fine, goodbye". You think the shires are gonna fight for the socialist scots?
AgentLampshade
Member
I am all in, baby.
CyclopsRock
Member
I think they'd fight for the nature of the split, yeah. Any kind of independence would be a lengthy process and, for almost every single facet of government, various options could be made which benefit Scotland, rUK or try to be some compromise. Obvious examples include what happens with the national debt, what happens with the currency, what happens with Trident etc. These things would all need to be sorted out and couldn't be feasibly done if Scotland unilaterally declared independence.
Read what I wrote again. I said, personally, I'm relieved the EU is there as a safety net against the Tories dismantling normal people's rights - even if rationally and objectively, it still doesn't make it right that a largely undemocratic and unaccountable union should be able to pass laws that override those of a democratically elected national government, no matter how odious it may be. I also said I'd vote 'in', albeit with serious caveats.
A process which already has contingency plans by both govts from the referendum. It wouldn't happen overnight but it would happen regardless of daddy Westminster okaying a referendum. We vote in and England votes out that is a huge critical split.
I was more quoting you and asking a question to the outs. Your position mirrors mine but I'm okay with having rights even if it isn't what the tories want.
Edit autocorrect
tamaster92
Member
In.
EU aint the best thing in the world but we are better in than out
EU aint the best thing in the world but we are better in than out
This is true - I mean Spain still hasn't recognised the United States, India or Estonia.
But in all seriousness, she has more of a mandate to call a referendum than the Cameroid et al have to deny one.
In the latter, new neogiations, all I'd wonder is how easy it'll be dealing with the euro bloc in particular in that case, at least in the short to mid term. It may be a different game to the suggested analogies I sometimes see offered, like Norway etc. Any existing agreements that aren't bound up in EU membership would remain of course, but on any new dealings I think the uk might get a rough ride.
This is all gut feeling speculation though. I think it's a bit strange that people are in a situation where to a certain extent they're blind about the alternative. Is anyone working to try and surface with other eu members what would happen if uk leaves in terms of future dealings? It seems preferred to leave it as a big Unknown, but I have to imagine that even the current UK gov and Cameron are working on contingencies. Will they discuss them before the vote?
axisofweevils
Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
In, but I've always been more pro-Europe than most people I know.
toythatkills
Member
I'm out because Iain Duncan Smith said if we stay in the EU then terrorists will come here and kill everyone, and that's definitely true because Iain Duncan Smith said it.
(In, obviously.)
jimbobsmells
Member
Yeah. This is my biggest concern about voting Out. Not trade agreements, or anything else. This.
Fuck IDS. He's the most dangerous man in the govt.
It's not though.
If the UK is still part of the EU and Scotland votes for independence then they would automatically be out of the EU, the EU themselves told them this much. Alex Salmond just stuck his fingers in his ears, went "La la la la la" and then outright lied to Scotland by telling them that Scotland would remain an EU member.
When Scotland leaves the EU, their request for admission would require several things,
1) The adopting of the Euro as the countries currency (Not sure how popular this would be in Scotland. It's very unpopular in England at least)
2) A stable economy, this would take years to achieve for a newly independent Scotland and wouldn't have been anytime soon under Alex Salmond's economic policy of "Oil oil oil"
3) The consent of all other existing EU member states. As has been said, Spain would never agree to this as it would only further encourage Catalonian independence.
Literally the only realistic way for Scotland to remain in the EU is to remain a part of the UK.
QuicheFontaine
Member
It really wasn't bullshit. The Scottish government wrote to the EU Commission asking if they would have to reapply as a new member state and were told categorically yes, they would.
The EU isn't looking for new members right now, and in any case new members have to be unanimously approved by existing not members. Certain members (cough, Spain) have a vested interest in not approving.
Yeah, this is just supremely ignorant of how real politik works.
How so? Please, do enlighten me how easy it would be for Scotland to join the EU.
Scotland was told again and again by both the EU and independent authorities that they would automatically leave the EU as they would be, essentially, a new country. Re-joining would be virtually impossible whilst it needs Spanish approval.
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