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GI.biz: Microsoft needs to clarify gaming vision (UWP)

The difference will be the Windows 10 Store. Once MS gets most new releases into the store it will be the main place to get games essentially replacing steam (which value knew was coming since windows 8 release and why they decided to make the steam OS/machines).

I think you're overlooking the PC players desire to have the best experience possible. If they're spending any type of money on hardware, they're going to do the extra leg work and figure out where the better version of the game is. Not to mention valve is still pretty good at making popular games and those games will continue to be exclusive to steam.
 
It's Xbox One pre-reveal all over again.

- potentially terrible plan with vague benefits
- poor explanation of said benefits
- the context makes the plan look even worse (back then, Kinect focus. Today, studios closing down and games going multiplat)
- a small community of loyalists defending the plan to the teeth using "what if"s and wildly optimistic conjecture
 
Other than the $120 Windows sale you mean?
It is entirely unhelpful to think of MS as just another digital storefront vendor.

They already have that, it's called a PC. They also get a % based off of tens of millions of 3rd party titles being sold that is only possible on a closed platform. It's called an Xbox.
 

Ganondolf

Member
Why would that happen? It would only happen if the expirenece is better. Even then some people would prefer Steam. Some people prefer Windows 10. Of course all MS games would come to their store.

Although not everyone would use the store as with steam now.

Most people will see the store as part of the OS and the easiest way to install games with out a 3rd party client. its true than the experience for the most part will have to be the same but some niche features may be removed which will not effect most PC gamers.
 

gamz

Member
It's Xbox One pre-reveal all over again.

- potentially terrible plan with vague benefits
- poor explanation of said benefits
- the context makes the plan look even worse (back then, Kinect focus. Today, studios closing down and games going multiplat)
- a small community of loyalists defending the plan to the teeth using "what if"s and wildly optimistic conjecture

And it may be the right plan again.
 
It's Xbox One pre-reveal all over again.

- potentially terrible plan with vague benefits
- poor explanation of said benefits
- the context makes the plan look even worse (back then, Kinect focus. Today, studios closing down and games going multiplat)
- a small community of loyalists defending the plan to the teeth using "what if"s and wildly optimistic conjecture
Lol so true. How anyone keeps giving ms the benefit after decades of this is mind blowing. Rushing to defend a mega Corp is embarassing.
 

Ganondolf

Member
I think you're overlooking the PC players desire to have the best experience possible. If they're spending any type of money on hardware, they're going to do the extra leg work and figure out where the better version of the game is. Not to mention valve is still pretty good at making popular games and those games will continue to be exclusive to steam.

I don't think the UWA will effect the performance so the games should match in that area. as far as exclusive games MS has more than Value (1st, 2nd party and paid exclusives).
 

LordRaptor

Member
They already have that, it's called a PC. They also get a % based off of tens of millions of 3rd party titles being sold that is only possible on a closed platform. It's called an Xbox.

Yes.
And 200 million new PCs with new copies of Windows installed are sold every year.

So which is more important to their core business?
A percentage of tens of millions of store purchases on a closed platform?
Or 100% of hundreds of millions by selling the OS that powers an open platform?

If they start trying to take both, and that results in companies with a lot of money at stake - companies like Autodesk, Adobe, Oracle, and Google - starting to prop up Linux as an alternative, which do you think will bother Ms more? Fewer sales on their storefront, or fewer OEMs selling Windows machines?

e:
I've said in other threads - enthusiast gamers are one of the few user groups that regularly buy Windows who cannot switch to an alternate consumer computing device like a phone as an adequate substitute.
It is extremely dangerous waters for MS to be treading alienating one of the few guaranteed revenue streams for Windows that they have left in the consumer space.
 
And it may be the right plan again.

3454581387_a677f0b64f.jpg
 

Raylan

Banned
It's Xbox One pre-reveal all over again.

- potentially terrible plan with vague benefits
- poor explanation of said benefits
- the context makes the plan look even worse (back then, Kinect focus. Today, studios closing down and games going multiplat)
- a small community of loyalists defending the plan to the teeth using "what if"s and wildly optimistic conjecture
Just what I thought a few days ago. Crazy, isn't it?
It's so similar.
 

ps3ud0

Member
Didn't we already go through this with Games for Windows Live? That thing failed because it sucked. If this thing sucks it will also fail. There too many options for consumers and third parties on PC and Microsoft is not going to spend enough money on UWP to brute force it into being a dominant PC platform.
The difference will be the Windows 10 Store. Once MS gets most new releases into the store it will be the main place to get games essentially replacing steam (which value knew was coming since windows 8 release and why they decided to make the steam OS/machines).
This is one of the things that feels like a disconnect, while the Win10 store only carries MS published products theres little to worry about regards the UWP, but if other companies start to only release UWAs (irrespective where they can be actually purchased) then concerns weve seen argued have a logical path.

The gap that I still dont think is well speculated is how does MS get all these third parties to solely publish on the UWP? What Id like to understand is how MS got third parties to embed GfWL into their games as perhaps theyll attempt to use the same route this time around. Im not just thinking about games, indeed that approach just seems to be a good way to get footfall into the Win10 store...

I do think MS are quietly positioning themselves and have been ever since Win8 and while these small individual incremental steps arent that offensive to many (which is probably why some feel its overreaction) it does feel like theres some long-term goal many years down the line that we probably should have concerns about.

Ultimately the more we make MS explain themselves now the better - though we really should try and see their actions through all the PR words. How this is something after the fact is amazing...

ps3ud0 8)
 

wapplew

Member
It's Xbox One pre-reveal all over again.

- potentially terrible plan with vague benefits
- poor explanation of said benefits
- the context makes the plan look even worse (back then, Kinect focus. Today, studios closing down and games going multiplat)
- a small community of loyalists defending the plan to the teeth using "what if"s and wildly optimistic conjecture

We've destroyed one of the plan MS fans want, maybe we should let them have what they want this time.
 

LordRaptor

Member
The gap that I still dont think is well speculated is how does MS get all these third parties to solely publish on the UWP? What Id like to understand is how MS got third parties to embed GfWL into their games as perhaps theyll attempt to use the same route this time around. Im not just thinking about games...

The 360 was the sales leader and lead platform for 'core' titles and provided an all in one solution for things like achievements, networking and matchmaking.

The Xbox One is not a sales leader or lead platform for anything MS aren't paying for, and if developers didn't get around to making their own solutions for things like achievements networking and matchmaking over the course of last gen, they can use the Steamworks functionality for all of those for free and on a storefront that people actually like and trust.
 

Ganondolf

Member
UWA absolutely affects cosmetic mods and traditional performance tweaks to fix technical niggles. See: Rise of the Tomb Raider W10 vs Steam

That's true, Tomb raiders not great. But mods will work but will need to be coded by the developer to allow it (like I said in a earlier post some niche features may be removed like modding games not make to be modded by the developer). performance tweeks should work but I'm not sure if the api/UWA will need to be upgraded to allow this. I'm sure MS knows of the issues and will add the features to the UWA to allow them with OS updates (redstone 1 & 2). if you look at the UWA for 8.1 to 10 there is a lot of improvements, it may take some time before everything is 100% but MS is looking long term goals.
 

TBiddy

Member
X1 reveal numerous times. People just "didn't get it" according to ms.

What does that have to do with the discussion about UWP?

There's a lot of omission going on here, which isn't doing much good for discussion either. Even if those "misunderstandings" about distribution were addressed, the very fact that we're talking about "sideloading" on a PC at all is obscene. Not to mention concerns about interoperability, modifiability, API feature restrictions, etc that haven't been addressed at all beyond "hey maybe we'll say something at build"

Hence "possible implications", which still means relying on "ehh Steam will still work" as the solution is complacent at best

I don't disagree with you, per se, UWP isn't perfect and probably never will be, which is why it'll fail, according to my crystal ball.

Where we disagree is whether or not, it'll potentially kill PC gaming as we know it.
 
What does that have to do with the discussion about UWP?



I don't disagree with you, per se, UWP isn't perfect and probably never will be, which is why it'll fail, according to my crystal ball.

Where we disagree is whether or not, it'll potentially kill PC gaming as we know it.
Can you follow a discussion? Someone asked when have ms ever blamed people just not getting it. Me and others responded. It's how conversations work.
 
And it may be the right plan again.
Let it go. It was not the right plan for consoles. If you felt so strongly about the benefits of their plan (instead of loyalty to Microsoft) then you would've built a PC, which already offered most of those same benefits.

We've destroyed one of the plan MS fans want, maybe we should let them have what they want this time.
That's not fair. Plenty of Microsoft/Xbox fans did not like the original Xbox One concept just like plenty of Xbox One fans don't like the direction Microsoft is going with this stuff.

The consequences of just "letting them have what they want" means terrible things for both console and PC gamers.

Doesn't anyone else get worn out by having to constantly slap Microsoft's hand? They've made some great contributions to gaming, but it gets tiresome having to constantly speak out against their bad decisions and telling them to correct course. At a certain point, ya gotta just stop supporting them.
 

Ganondolf

Member
The gap that I still dont think is well speculated is how does MS get all these third parties to solely publish on the UWP? What Id like to understand is how MS got third parties to embed GfWL into their games as perhaps theyll attempt to use the same route this time around. Im not just thinking about games, indeed that approach just seems to be a good way to get footfall into the Win10 store...

ps3ud0 8)

I don't think MS needs them to be solely published on the UWP. I think MS believes that once they have the game in the store the convenience will make most people buy it from the store.
 

TBiddy

Member
Can you follow a discussion? Someone asked when have ms ever blamed people just not getting it. Me and others responded. It's how conversations work.

I think you're in the wrong thread. This was what started it all:

"Microsoft also don't announce a vision to the other millions of developers using UWP"

To which was replied:

"Maybe they should have done that before spaffing off a half finished product into the aether and then complaining that detractors don't "get it" when they make pretty reasonable statements of concern"

To that I replied:

"Where have you seen Microsoft complain that the complainers don't "get it"? "

The conversation is about UWP, not if Microsoft has ever blamed people for not "getting it" about any of their products in the history of the company.
 

Kael

Banned
Good to see these articles popping up all over. We need more and more pressure. People expect a clear vision from Microsoft and answers about how they plan to address both gamers and developers concerns when it comes to the PC platform.

except that MS has made it very clear they are going to explain things on March 30, so i don't know why all these people are jumping on assumptions knowing that there will be explanations forthcoming.

And if those explanations do not come, that is when you start jumping down MS's throat.
 
I think you're in the wrong thread. This was what started it all:

"Microsoft also don't announce a vision to the other millions of developers using UWP"

To which was replied:

"Maybe they should have done that before spaffing off a half finished product into the aether and then complaining that detractors don't "get it" when they make pretty reasonable statements of concern"

To that I replied:

"Where have you seen Microsoft complain that the complainers don't "get it"? "

The conversation is about UWP, not if Microsoft has ever blamed people for not "getting it" about any of their products in the history of the company.

Conversations ebb and flow. People answered a question. Don't like it don't ask questions you don't like the answer too. Or simply ignore it.
 

Synth

Member
Can you follow a discussion? Someone asked when have ms ever blamed people just not getting it. Me and others responded. It's how conversations work.

I can. It's even easier when you can simply trace it back.

Microsoft also don't announce a vision to the other millions of developers using UWP

"it" = UWP

Maybe they should have done that before spaffing off a half finished product into the aether and then complaining that detractors don't "get it" when they make pretty reasonable statements of concern

"it" (should logically, unless poster is going off-topic) = UWP

Where have you seen Microsoft complain that the complainers don't "get it"?

"it" = UWP

X1 reveal numerous times. People just "didn't get it" according to ms.

"it" <> UWP... for some reason
 

ps3ud0

Member
The 360 was the sales leader and lead platform for 'core' titles and provided an all in one solution for things like achievements, networking and matchmaking.

The Xbox One is not a sales leader or lead platform for anything MS aren't paying for, and if developers didn't get around to making their own solutions for things like achievements networking and matchmaking over the course of last gen, they can use the Steamworks functionality for all of those for free and on a storefront that people actually like and trust.
Excellent I thought as much but its been a while since trying to remember positive things about GfWL :p. So realistically the things they leveraged with GfWL just wouldnt work in todays climate if we are only talking about games with comparable APIs like Steamworks already established (unsure if Uplay/Origin and the like are worthwhile mentioning?).

So is it really just the ability to wrap a product into a UWA which on face value should work on multiple Win10 platforms? I dont see how that would get games or intensive applications onto UWP.

Im getting a bit lost in my own thoughts and trying to not to go down the same speculation Durantes already tread. MS must have a way beyond/in addition to trying to convert win32 programs in UWAs and then aggressively making win32 legacy.
I don't think MS needs them to be solely published on the UWP. I think MS believes that once they have the game in the store the convenience will make most people buy it from the store.
But isnt everything on the Win10 store UWAs anyway? To me MS is moving to gain control rather than just direct profits because of the cut they make having products on their own store.

ps3ud0 8)
 
I can. It's even easier when you can simply trace it back.



"it" = UWP



"it" (should logically, unless poster is going off-topic) = UWP



"it" = UWP



"it <> UWMP... for some reason
Then he did an awful job communicating....there was no way to know it was ump. It was vague thus numerous people responded the way they did.
 

TBiddy

Member
Conversations ebb and flow. People answered a question. Don't like it don't ask questions you don't like the answer too. Or simply ignore it.

That doesn't make any sense. The conversation was about UWP the entire time, until the goalposts were moved in order to fit in the hilariously bad PR about the XB1 plans.

PS. Thanks, Synth. Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way.
 

Synth

Member
Then he did an awful job communicating....there was no way to know it was ump. It was vague thus numerous people responded the way they did.

It wasn't worded in the best way possible, I'll admit... but there was a way to know it was UWP. It was the fact that UWP is the topic being discussed.

But yea... I can see how the confusion happened. I just think a quip about being able to follow a conversation is a bit misplaced given what just happened. :p
 

Jabba

Banned
I think you're in the wrong thread. This was what started it all:

"Microsoft also don't announce a vision to the other millions of developers using UWP"

To which was replied:

"Maybe they should have done that before spaffing off a half finished product into the aether and then complaining that detractors don't "get it" when they make pretty reasonable statements of concern"

To that I replied:

"Where have you seen Microsoft complain that the complainers don't "get it"? "

The conversation is about UWP, not if Microsoft has ever blamed people for not "getting it" about any of their products in the history of the company.


Those people answered within the bounds of this conversation. If you were completely specific to uwp, which you were not, then yes you'd be correct.

"Where have you seen Microsoft complain that the complainers don't get it?" or "Where have you seen Microsoft complain that the complainers about uwp don't get it?"
 

TBiddy

Member
Because there are similarities as has been pointed out.

Yes, there is. But you first you claimed that you posted, what you did, because there was no way to know, that the conversation was about UWP, and now you claim it was on purpose, since UWP and the XB1-reveal has some similarities. I'm confused, but fact of the matter is, that I still haven't seen Microsoft claim that "people just don't get it" about UWP.

Those people answered within the bounds of this conversation. If you were completely specific to uwp, which you were not, then yes you'd be correct.

"Where have you seen Microsoft complain that the complainers don't get it?" or "Where have you seen Microsoft complain that the complainers about uwp don't get it?"

Well, if every post had to be that specific it would be hell. You could've just followed the trail back in the conversation. Oh sorry, the conversation that I participated in, earlier in this thread, regarding Microsofts stance about peoples views on UWP, when it comes to closing the PC ecosystem. Was that specific enough?
 
Here we go all over again. If Microsoft wants their storefront to have PC titles that are more tightly locked down than is typical of PC games, then they should go ahead and say so and stick to their guns rather than confuse the issue. People don't have to buy from their store in the first place, and are free to get games wherever else they want. If they want access to specific games, then they either accept the price of admission and play the game, or don't.

Microsoft has to get out of this habit where they need everyone from everywhere to approve of what they are doing. Just go ahead and do what you're doing, without diluting the vision, and live with the consequences while making sensible improvements along the way.
 

Vinland

Banned
Microsoft deserve their own store front. They also deserve any criticism if it's shit
it is

If they want to make games and get others to do universal apps that is fine too. As long as it is transparent to the developer to package the game in different ways: standard pc w32, Linux, Mac and ps4.

Microsoft in the enterprise are trying to play nice and if they keep that goodwill in gaming they can succeed and benefit the market as a whole. They can also shoot themselves in the foot.

We will see.
 

LordRaptor

Member
So is it really just the ability to wrap a product into a UWA which on face value should work on multiple Win10 platforms? I dont see how that would get games or intensive applications onto UWP.

I've said in other topics, so I don't want to become a broken record, but I don't believe the intentions behind UWAs and the Win10 Store were ever meant to accomodate 'performance' (ie meant for desktop use) software of any sort, including games.
What the Xbox division actually want is in fact GFWL 2.0 on an "Xbox Storefront", but due to their grotesque mishandling of GFWL 1 they've not been allowed to have that, so have just co-opted UWAs and the Win 10 store instead.
 
That doesn't make any sense. The conversation was about UWP the entire time, until the goalposts were moved in order to fit in the hilariously bad PR about the XB1 plans.

PS. Thanks, Synth. Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way.
It's worth bringing up after the whole X1 pre-reveal, E3, and launch debacles because -- in case you've forgotten Microsoft's own PR -- the X1 is a very important part of their UWP plans!

Ahem. On a more serious note, after that train wreck in 2013, lots of Xbox loyalists stated "their plan was misunderstood" and "they didn't do anything wrong -- they were just poor on messaging". I remember another wave of "their messaging was just bad. Don't crucify them over it" defenses around the same time that Phil Spencer took over, too. Mattrick was blamed. Microsoft wasn't evil, just misunderstood. Let's all put this behind us.

But that logic is backed into the corner now. Good guy Phil is the one leading this charge. They're taking their games multiplatform, not to make the Xbox One more attractive but to make W10 more attractive. Their messaging is bad (again). At what point do people acknowledge that perhaps Microsoft's plans are not good? At what point do we stop giving them a pass because "their messaging is bad. We shouldn't jump to conclusions. Wait for the reveal. Wait for the next E3. You'll see. Wait until you see it in action"?
 
Microsoft deserve their own store front. They also deserve any criticism if it's shit
it is

If they want to make games and get others to do universal apps that is fine too. As long as it is transparent to the developer to package the game in different ways: standard pc w32, Linux, Mac and ps4.

Microsoft in the enterprise are trying to play nice and if they keep that goodwill in gaming they can succeed and benefit the market as a whole. They can also shoot themselves in the foot.

We will see.

Having their own store front has never been the point of contention.....
 

TBiddy

Member
Their messaging is bad (again). At what point do people acknowledge that perhaps Microsoft's plans are not good? At what point do we stop giving them a pass because "their messaging is bad. We shouldn't jump to conclusions. Wait for the reveal. Wait for the next E3. You'll see. Wait until you see it in action"?

If they don't have good explanations about opening up UWP to other vendors etc., you'll see me first in line with a pitchfork. But as I've stated earlier, I don't think UWA-based games will ever take off, because of the (as of right now, at least) serious limitations they have.

Regular apps based on UWP is another story, but I don't think gamers will "ever" leave Steam, uPlay, GoG, Battle.net and what have you.
 

Ganondolf

Member
But isnt everything on the Win10 store UWAs anyway? To me MS is moving to gain control rather than just direct profits because of the cut they make having products on their own store.

ps3ud0 8)

yes that is the long term goal. but at the start they wont force all publishers to solely release them as UWAs. eventually when enough people are using the store (and in turn UWAs) the publishers will more than likely just use the dominant method (UWAs). At least I believe this is MS's plan.
 

m_dorian

Member
If they don't have good explanations about opening up UWP to other vendors etc., you'll see me first in line with a pitchfork. But as I've stated earlier, I don't think UWA-based games will ever take off, because of the (as of right now, at least) serious limitations they have.

Regular apps based on UWP is another story, but I don't think gamers will "ever" leave Steam, uPlay, GoG, Battle.net and what have you.

You might be right but concerns must be loudly voiced and this has to be done now. MS can not have the benefit of the doubt because of their past transgressions.

I really, really hope that we will not see the worst scenario implemented.
 

ps3ud0

Member
I've said in other topics, so I don't want to become a broken record, but I don't believe the intentions behind UWAs and the Win10 Store were ever meant to accomodate 'performance' (ie meant for desktop use) software of any sort, including games.
What the Xbox division actually want is in fact GFWL 2.0 on an "Xbox Storefront", but due to their grotesque mishandling of GFWL 1 they've not been allowed to have that, so have just co-opted UWAs and the Win 10 store instead.
Thanks - if you are right its quite a mess. I wont press you for more as I feel the same way to you regards these threads, its quite exhausting trying to get a semblance of a point discussed without it being pigeonholed as already covered rhetoric
yes that is the long term goal. but at the start they wont force all publishers to solely release them as UWAs. eventually when enough people are using the store (and in turn UWAs) the publishers will more than likely just use the dominant method (UWAs). At least I believe this is MS's plan.
Sorry, are you saying that the Win10 store would allow non-UWAs to be sold initially? My impression was completely different in that UWP is a requirement to be in the store...

ps3ud0 8)
 

ironcreed

Banned
I actually like the idea of what they are trying to do. But their actions and the messaging behind it all is absolutely horrendous. As a fan of Xbox specifically, I find myself scratching my head here of late. Get your house in order and be real with us, Microsoft.
 

TBiddy

Member
You might be right but concerns must be loudly voiced and this has to be done now. MS can not have the benefit of the doubt because of their past transgressions.

I really, really hope that we will not see the worst scenario implemented.

That we absolutely agree on. It's also healthy with a good discussion about any new implementations or standards, regardless who's creating them.
 

Pif

Banned
Watch as Microsoft fucks up this windows store venture and manages to ruin the xbox brand along the way.
 

ironcreed

Banned
Watch as Microsoft fucks up this windows store venture and manages to ruin the xbox brand along the way.

I have thought about all of this long and hard and am actually starting to agree. The PR is among the worst I have ever seen for such a major brand.
 
That's true, Microsoft need to be more clear about what they want to do, i'm ok with them willing to push their Windows 10 store with their exclusives, though the store isn't actually ready to become a gaming store, will they improve it beyond just little things like vsync etc? Have they decided to go with all Xbox One exclusives on PC too? Will they partner with Steam somehow? What's the feature of Xbox console in all this? They need to take a position and explain it well to consumers
They want Steam's piece of the pie by trying to muscle them out, no way they're working with Steam.
 
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