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uncelestial · Mar 28, 2016

Trey said:
That is the exact joke. There is an undercurrent of transphobia to the joke, and Dave uses it to stress the absurdity of the situation he found himself in.

It's funny that people bring up the police officer/woman dressed as a ho joke he did. I feel that the joke this topic is based on is essentially the police officer joke repackaged, in that Dave's sensibilities and intuition is being challenged. he feels the curt responses he gets in his jokes are absurd, considerdering the visual presentation the subjects of his jokes display.

No, you're skipping general exasperation with pronoun use and the question he poses about others' "participating" in a trans person's "self-image" -- i.e. Dave ultimately saying "I don't have to think of you as a woman if I don't want to, and it annoys me when trans people correct my speech."

Tapejara · Mar 28, 2016

A Link to the Past said:
Criticism is censorship you know

It's always weird to me how this issue only arises when it's politically slanted. If Chappelle's act had become stale over the years and people criticized him for it (say he just started making lame jokes like "why did the chicken cross the road/to get to the other side"), there wouldn't be any pushback towards those criticisms, I'm sure most would say "yeah, his act sucks now."

Chorazin · Mar 28, 2016

uncelestial said:
He did absolutely hit that beat and it was funny. But he definitely had an axe to grind on pronoun use in general, and he definitely ultimately poses a question "to what degree do I have to participate in your self-image/fantasy?" The lingering on this exasperation was palpably awkward and his discomfort with the entire concept of trans was obvious.

I mean....he has the right to feel that way.

I'm the kinda person that doesn't give a single fuck about what you want to be called or identify as, I'll call you whatever you want if you correct me, or look like if I've never met you, so it's whatever to me. Just like it's totally ok for me to not give a shit, it's totally ok for him to give a shit.

Anura · Mar 28, 2016

JoJoShabadoo said:
Ever heard of self-censorship?

So should other people self-censor themselves just so another wont, even though they have something to say as well?

Vampire On Titus · Mar 28, 2016

I'm pretty sure I saw the joke that the article is referring to in some bootlegs on youtube a couple months back. Tried to find a link but it looks like it got taken down since.

The joke -- as I remember it -- Is about Dave trying to help someone who looked sick at a bar or club. The person turned out to be trans and their friends gave Dave shit for not using the right pronouns when first addressing them. At that point, incredulous, Dave says something like "Really? How much do I have to indulge in your fantasy?"

The joke, as I understood it, wasn't about mocking Trans people. It was sort of taking the piss out of how shitty people can get over a genuine misunderstanding. The indignant reaction toward a stranger not being immediately 100% up to speed with the particulars of your (potentially very complicated) identity. Even when this stranger is trying to help them because they're sick at a bar.

Like much of Dave's routine it was more of a story with some casual absurdism peppered throughout than a typical joke. Quoting one line isn't fair to the material. However, the fantasy quip does still stand out as a poor choice of words, even in the full context. I remember thinking "that's a bomb waiting to go off" if he ever kept the joke like that in a special.

Kreed · Mar 28, 2016

uncelestial said:
The description of the material as reported in the 2014 post I put in the OP says to me he has largely stuck with the original wording and it's not really about "trying it out" or "being in the test phase" so much. I'm talking about a show that happened two months ago that's being taped for a special this week, and a joke that is being documented in 2014 pretty much exactly as it happened two months ago with the documentor having much the same disappointed reaction I had.

I believe you're sincere in your description OP and I give you more credit than the TMZ/etc... article alone, but I still would rather hear the joke for myself before I'd be willing to toss out a label on Dave Chappelle/denounce him for a joke, especially being aware of his past material on television/seeing him live 2 years ago. Too often have I read stories where comedians like Chris Rock or TV comedy show creators like Matt and Trey from South Park going "too far" with a joke and then I see it in context and go "that's what all the fuss was about?".

Sho_Nuff82 · Mar 28, 2016

Kinsei said:
You can't do that.

If he made a joke about Caitlin Jenner being unattractive, would that be a slam against the entire trans community? If he made a joke about Floyd Mayweather not being able to read, is that a slam against the entire black community? No, it's mean spirited and covers a negative stereotype, but it's pretty obvious who is the butt of the joke.

Reading more of the replies there seems to be conflicting impressions of how the bit has evolved over time, so I will have to wait and see for myself.

uncelestial · Mar 28, 2016

Chorazin said:
I mean....he has the right to feel that way.

I'm the kinda person that doesn't give a single fuck about what you want to be called or identify as, I'll call you whatever you want if you correct me, or look like if I've never met you, so it's whatever to me. Just like it's totally ok for me to not give a shit, it's totally ok for him to give a shit.

Well, we agree he has the right. But when you get onstage and express that view, others have a right to criticize it. We're all just talking here.

aeolist · Mar 28, 2016

Chorazin said:
I mean....he has the right to feel that way.

I'm the kinda person that doesn't give a single fuck about what you want to be called or identify as, I'll call you whatever you want if you correct me, or look like if I've never met you, so it's whatever to me. Just like it's totally ok for me to not give a shit, it's totally ok for him to give a shit.

i don't think anyone seriously gives a fuck what dave chappelle thinks about trans people deep down in his heart of hearts

what matters is what he says and does

A Link to the Past · Mar 28, 2016

JoJoShabadoo said:
Ever heard of self-censorship?

So you are arguing that all criticism is censorship because it might influence the criticized person to change their art

Have you ever criticized something? If so, does this go to say that you are pro-censorship?

ElTopo · Mar 28, 2016

And of course, this is a popular thread on Neogaf...

This is a non-issue. It's just another case of SJW's getting pissy over nothing. Comedians have to experiment with jokes that might bomb or offend. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they don't. The point is that a good comedian will take risks and SJW's freaking out over something stifles creativity. This is why comedians are being less risky and asking for no cell phone policies when performing.

Bill Maher hit the nail right on the head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJyDyCocGQ

I'm sure that Carlin and Pyor said incredibly nasty un-PC shit back in the day when they were trying out new material. So get over your selves, stop being offended by everything. If I'm shadow banned for this then so be it.

Toxi · Mar 28, 2016

Chorazin said:
I mean....he has the right to feel that way.

I'm the kinda person that doesn't give a single fuck about what you want to be called or identify as, I'll call you whatever you want if you correct me, or look like if I've never met you, so it's whatever to me. Just like it's totally ok for me to not give a shit, it's totally ok for him to give a shit.

I don't think anyone's denying someone the right to feel that way.

They're just criticizing that feeling as horrible.

excelsiorlef · Mar 28, 2016

Chorazin said:
I mean....he has the right to feel that way.

I'm the kinda person that doesn't give a single fuck about what you want to be called or identify as, I'll call you whatever you want if you correct me, or look like if I've never met you, so it's whatever to me. Just like it's totally ok for me to not give a shit, it's totally ok for him to give a shit.

Not acknowledging a trans person's presented identity can out them and put them at risk.

uncelestial · Mar 28, 2016

Kreed said:
I believe you're sincere in your description OP and I give you more credit than the TMZ/etc... article alone, but I still would rather hear the joke for myself before I'd be willing to toss out a label on Dave Chappelle/denounce him for a joke, especially being aware of his past material on television/seeing him live 2 years ago. Too often have I read stories where comedians like Chris Rock or TV comedy show creators like Matt and Trey from South Park going "too far" with a joke and then I see it in context and go "that's what all the fuss was about?".

That's completely fair. Ideally we could watch the 7 minutes and make up our minds individually. But Dave/Yondr made that impossible. Apparently he taped a special and did this joke. We'll see if he thinks better of what the messages inherent in this material ultimately are, and does a more forgiving edit job that isn't just a shot across the bow at all trans people.

Scientist Supreme! · Mar 28, 2016

ElTopo said:
And of course, this is a popular thread on Neogaf...

This is a non-issue. It's just another case of SJW's getting pissy over nothing. Comedians have to experiment with jokes that might bomb or offend. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they don't. The point is that a good comedian will take risks and SJW's freaking out over something stifles creativity. This is why comedians are being less risky and asking for no cell phone policies when performing.

Bill Maher hit the nail right on the head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJyDyCocGQ

I'm sure that Carlin and Pyor said incredibly nasty un-PC shit back in the day when they were trying out new material. So get over your selves, stop being offended by everything. If I'm shadow banned for this then so be it.

At least you came up and said it unlike many others. It's dumb thing to say but still.

uncelestial · Mar 28, 2016

ElTopo said:
And of course, this is a popular thread on Neogaf...

This is a non-issue. It's just another case of SJW's getting pissy over nothing. Comedians have to experiment with jokes that might bomb or offend. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they don't. The point is that a good comedian will take risks and SJW's freaking out over something stifles creativity. This is why comedians are being less risky and asking for no cell phone policies when performing.

Bill Maher hit the nail right on the head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJyDyCocGQ

I'm sure that Carlin and Pyor said incredibly nasty un-PC shit back in the day when they were trying out new material. So get over your selves, stop being offended by everything. If I'm shadow banned for this then so be it.

For anyone in denial that Dave would ever say something like what is being alleged, just remember we live in a world where many people feel like ElTopo.

JoJoShabadoo · Mar 28, 2016

Anura said:
So should other people self-censor themselves just so another wont, even though they have something to say as well?

Yes, because this is nearly the equivalent of a heckler going into a show and interrupting the comedian from doing his job. Or the equivalent of a Gaf thread with posters shitting up a thread because they don't like something that everyone else likes (which is grounds for a ban, based on the terms here, by the way).

The comedian has a right to say what he wants, it's his job. Who cares about the spectator's opinion of a joke?

Nudull · Mar 28, 2016

ElTopo said:
And of course, this is a popular thread on Neogaf...

This is a non-issue. It's just another case of SJW's getting pissy over nothing. Comedians have to experiment with jokes that might bomb or offend. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they don't. The point is that a good comedian will take risks and SJW's freaking out over something stifles creativity. This is why comedians are being less risky and asking for no cell phone policies when performing.

Bill Maher hit the nail right on the head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJyDyCocGQ

I'm sure that Carlin and Pyor said incredibly nasty un-PC shit back in the day when they were trying out new material. So get over your selves, stop being offended by everything. If I'm shadow banned for this then so be it.

So, we should applaud any attempt at comedy, even if it turns out horrible, for the sake of celebrating creativity. Those brave, brave comedians.

A Link to the Past · Mar 28, 2016

ElTopo said:
And of course, this is a popular thread on Neogaf...

This is a non-issue. It's just another case of SJW's getting pissy over nothing. Comedians have to experiment with jokes that might bomb or offend. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they don't. The point is that a good comedian will take risks and SJW's freaking out over something stifles creativity. This is why comedians are being less risky and asking for no cell phone policies when performing.

Bill Maher hit the nail right on the head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJyDyCocGQ

I'm sure that Carlin and Pyor said incredibly nasty un-PC shit back in the day when they were trying out new material. So get over your selves, stop being offended by everything. If I'm shadow banned for this then so be it.

People are referring to Chappelle making the comment of "indulging in fantasy." Because this isn't humour, it's bigotry. It's presented as having some insight - sure, I can see the joke behind people prioritizing pronouns over the actual immediate situation that's occurring, but as has been said, it's kind of like a metaphor of people thinking that pronouns don't matter, and calling someone the wrong pronoun is no big deal.

JoJoShabadoo said:
Yes, because this is nearly the equivalent of a heckler going into a show and interrupting the comedian from doing his job. Or the equivalent of a Gaf thread with posters shitting up a thread because they don't like something that everyone else likes (which is grounds for a ban, based on the terms here, by the way).

The comedian has a right to say what he wants, it's his job. Who cares about the spectator's opinion of a joke?

Chappelle has two choices.

1. He can never do comedy, and never be criticized.

2. He can do comedy, and then be criticized as much as anyone wishes to criticize him.

Seriously, for all the special snowflake shit I hear about "SJWs", comedians are some of the most pampered people I have ever seen.

Toxi · Mar 28, 2016

ElTopo said:
If I'm shadow banned for this then so be it.

People don't get shadow-banned on NeoGAF, just regular banned.

Kinsei · Mar 28, 2016

Sho_Nuff82 said:
If he made a joke about Caitlin Jenner being unattractive, would that be a slam against the entire trans community? If he made a joke about Floyd Mayweather not being able to read, is that a slam against the entire black community? No, it's mean spirited and covers a negative stereotype, but it's pretty obvious who is the butt of the joke.

But the jokes this thread is about weren't about Caitlyn's attractiveness. I assumed you were talking about what the thread is about, not jokes about Caitlyn in general.

JoJoShabadoo said:
The comedian has a right to say what he wants, it's his job. Who cares about the spectator's opinion of a joke?

You do.

Anura · Mar 28, 2016

JoJoShabadoo said:
Yes, because this is nearly the equivalent of a heckler going into a show and interrupting the comedian from doing his job. Or the equivalent of a Gaf thread with posters shitting up a thread because they don't like something that everyone else likes (which is grounds for a ban, based on the terms here, by the way).

The comedian has a right to say what he wants, it's his job. Who cares about the spectator's opinion of a joke?

That's not even close to a good analogy

ElectricBlanketFire · Mar 28, 2016

ElTopo said:
And of course, this is a popular thread on Neogaf...

This is a non-issue. It's just another case of SJW's getting pissy over nothing. Comedians have to experiment with jokes that might bomb or offend. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they don't. The point is that a good comedian will take risks and SJW's freaking out over something stifles creativity. This is why comedians are being less risky and asking for no cell phone policies when performing.

Bill Maher hit the nail right on the head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJyDyCocGQ

I'm sure that Carlin and Pyor said incredibly nasty un-PC shit back in the day when they were trying out new material. So get over your selves, stop being offended by everything. If I'm shadow banned for this then so be it.

You're risking a ban over this and we're the ones getting pissy?

Pau · Mar 28, 2016

excelsiorlef said:
Not acknowledging a trans person's presented identity can out them and put them at risk.

I think the disconnect for a lot of people comes from just not knowing (or not wanting to know) how much danger trans people experience because of these things.

RE_Player · Mar 28, 2016

I hate what we have become.

Toxi · Mar 28, 2016

JoJoShabadoo said:
Yes, because this is nearly the equivalent of a heckler going into a show and interrupting the comedian from doing his job.

Are you just throwing out shit to see what sticks to the wall?

JoJoShabadoo said:
The comedian has a right to say what he wants, it's his job. Who cares about the spectator's opinion of a joke?

The comedian.

Kelsdesu · Mar 28, 2016

MasterForm said:
Nothing is off limits in comedy. Why the backlash?

My first thought. He was doing his job.A truly sad day indeed when comedians become afraid to speak their mind.

A Link to the Past · Mar 28, 2016

RE_Player said:
I hate what we have become.

Agreed. It's always such a shame to watch just how much people want to baby comedians.

Kettch · Mar 28, 2016

Jokes can certainly have offensive parts and still be funny, but a joke can also just be plain offensive. It's difficult to tell without actually hearing the joke though, or ideally getting the comedian's take on it.

For instance, if "How long are we supposed to indulge in your fantasy?" is said in a way that makes fun of people who think that, then that can be a great joke.

On the other hand, if "How long are we supposed to indulge in your fantasy?" is said in a way that's meant to make fun of Jenner as a ridiculous trans, then that would just be straight up offensive.

I prefer to give comedians a lot of leeway in regards to the meaning of their joke, but I don't consider it a blank check either. If you just spout offensive crap because you believe offensive crap and think it's funny, that's not ok in my book.

The Doc · Mar 28, 2016

MasterForm said:
Nothing is off limits in comedy

This. End of story.

A Link to the Past · Mar 28, 2016

The Doc said:
This. End of story.

Is there a limit to criticism?

The_Kid · Mar 28, 2016

The problem with the whole "I don't care who you are or what you call yourself, you just do you" philosophy, is that it has a superficial attitude of acceptance while taking no effort to acknowledge the deeper socially constructed issues that effect others.

DryEyeRelief · Mar 28, 2016

ElTopo said:
If I'm shadow banned for this then so be it.

First stop NeoGAF, second stop youtube comment section bitching about getting banned on NeoGAF

Those god damn SJWs

entremet · Mar 28, 2016

EchosMyron1 said:
I'm pretty sure I saw the joke that the article is referring to in some bootlegs on youtube a couple months back. Tried to find a link but it looks like it got taken down since.

The joke -- as I remember it -- Is about Dave trying to help someone who looked sick at a bar or club. The person turned out to be trans and their friends gave Dave shit for not using the right pronouns when first addressing them. At that point, incredulous, Dave says something like "Really? How much do I have to indulge in your fantasy?"

The joke, as I understood it, wasn't about mocking Trans people. It was sort of taking the piss out of how shitty people can get over a genuine misunderstanding. The indignant reaction toward a stranger not being immediately 100% up to speed with the particulars of your (potentially very complicated) identity. Even when this stranger is trying to help them because they're sick at a bar.

Like much of Dave's routine it was more of a story with some casual absurdism peppered throughout than a typical joke. Quoting one line isn't fair to the material. However, the fantasy quip does still stand out as a poor choice of words, even in the full context. I remember thinking "that's a bomb waiting to go off" if he ever kept the joke like that in a special.

Makes more sense now, but it needs work like you said.

Toxi · Mar 28, 2016

The Doc said:
This. End of story.

I'm pretty sure comedians don't do minstrel shows any more for a reason.

The idea that there are "no limits" to comedy is ridiculous and doesn't match reality.

Ponn · Mar 28, 2016

ElTopo said:
And of course, this is a popular thread on Neogaf...

This is a non-issue. It's just another case of SJW's getting pissy over nothing. Comedians have to experiment with jokes that might bomb or offend. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they don't. The point is that a good comedian will take risks and SJW's freaking out over something stifles creativity. This is why comedians are being less risky and asking for no cell phone policies when performing.

Bill Maher hit the nail right on the head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJyDyCocGQ

I'm sure that Carlin and Pyor said incredibly nasty un-PC shit back in the day when they were trying out new material. So get over your selves, stop being offended by everything. If I'm shadow banned for this then so be it.

I'm of dual minds when it comes to PC culture. I feel some of its awful and just outrage culture to be outraged but then there is some merit for some of it and it needs to be contextualized and not just handwaived off in general. There is comedy that is just bigotry and bullying in disguise, like hiding behind religion to excuse your bigotry and ideals. If your words can be imitated and used on the playground to hurt real children and people who are struggling with their identities and cause them harm and even suicidal thoughts (all real and proven things) then you maybe need to check your privilege.

tkscz · Mar 28, 2016

A Link to the Past said:
Is there a limit to criticism?

No there isn't. There is no limit on what people say, only how much someone can take.

Chorazin · Mar 28, 2016

I think this all comes down to:

Dave Chappelle can say whatever he wants.

People can criticize what he said all they want.

As long as no one is saying "HE CAN'T SAY THAT!" or "THEY CAN'T CRITICIZE HIM!" no one's wrong here.

A Link to the Past · Mar 28, 2016

tkscz said:
No there isn't. There is no limit on what people say, only how much someone can take.

In that case, it's all too frustrating seeing people unironically complain that people are criticizing him because Chappelle has the right to say whatever he wants in his comedy.

ampere · Mar 28, 2016

It's possible to make crude jokes about a sensitive topic such as gender identity that offend some but are at the same time very clever, but he's just saying shitty cheap insults.

besada · Mar 28, 2016

If you want to discuss this issue, please feel free to do so, but we're going to be cracking down on shit posting, which includes garbage like "lol PC" "the world is too PC!", etc.

That kind of posting does nothing to encourage discussion. If you don't think this is worth discussing, as always, don't post in the thread. You're welcome to your opinions, you aren't welcome to shout down discussion by filling threads with low content garbage.

Have a viewpoint, have something to say, be prepared to defend it. I'll be back later to deal with posters who can't figure out a very clear warning.

As always, if you have concerns or opinions regarding moderation, feel free to contact a moderator via PM.

The Doc · Mar 28, 2016

A Link to the Past said:
Is there a limit to criticism?

Yes. When it's aimed towards art or satire.

ApharmdX · Mar 28, 2016

Chorazin said:
I mean....he has the right to feel that way.

I'm the kinda person that doesn't give a single fuck about what you want to be called or identify as, I'll call you whatever you want if you correct me, or look like if I've never met you, so it's whatever to me. Just like it's totally ok for me to not give a shit, it's totally ok for him to give a shit.

He does, but this seems to me (as a straight cis man) to be the real crux of transphobia. When your identity depends on others regarding you in a way that may be counter to how they actually regard you, that's a tough spot to be in. Where LGB rights were more a matter of allowing citizens the same rights as their fellows, transgender rights require a more sweeping change of individual perceptions. That's tricky and it seems like we are still far from widespread trans acceptance as a nation.

I feel like I'm not as educated on this issue as I'd like to be, in any case.

Misha · Mar 28, 2016

I hope its not too far off topic but for the people who say nothing should be critiqued in comedy, would that also apply to jokes that individuals who aren't professional comedians tell? I don't really understand what context that reasoning applies to.

ElectricBlanketFire · Mar 28, 2016

The Doc said:
Yes. When it's aimed towards art or satire.

Art and satire are above criticism?

A Link to the Past · Mar 28, 2016

The Doc said:
Yes. When it's aimed towards art or satire.

What? What is art? What isn't art? For instance, is Scary Movie V above criticism because it's satire?

Toxi · Mar 28, 2016

The Doc said:
Yes. When it's aimed towards art or satire.

Why?

(I feel there's a limit too, but I feel there's a limit on any sort of discourse, and my view of the limit probably differs from yours. Also, satire is a kind of art.)

aeolist · Mar 28, 2016

The Doc said:
Yes. When it's aimed towards art or satire.

art should not be critiqued? does the existence of professional art critics drive you frothing mad?

DryEyeRelief · Mar 28, 2016

A Link to the Past said:
In that case, it's all too frustrating seeing people unironically complain that people are criticizing him because Chappelle has the right to say whatever he wants in his comedy.

Well they're fanboys what do you expect?

I can't take anyone who says "Nothing is off limits in comedy", seriously. They sound like some kid parroting their favorite superhero.

Eusis · Mar 28, 2016

A Link to the Past said:
"Teams"?

The ideal gender solution for some of us, have teams of duplicates of both sexes running around and doing things. Like the Borg collective but it's just you and you and you.

Admittedly a lot of humor needs to be "attacking" to be funny, but this just sounds like hate speech and people ignore that this stuff creates a hostile environment that keeps us from even admitting we might be trans or questioning our gender, nevermind actually transitioning. Human psychology is a bitch that way.

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