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Mirror's Edge: Catalyst - new previews/videos - Closed Beta begins April 22-26th

Arion

Member
So this is all a flaw of making it completely open world with (basically) no structure, which ensures there's no way to teach gameplay mechanics through good level and enemy encounter design.

"Flaw" is one way of thinking about it but I would say it is a necessity if you want casual players to fully understand and appreciate your game.

If the unlocks happened at set story points, I would agree with you. Then, you can unlock a move right before a sequence where the player will need to use it, so that they will understand when the move is helpful, and the designers can ensure its mastery.

The problem with XP is that it doesn't work like that. The designers don't know what skills I will unlock at what points in the story, so they can't plan for them in their level design.

That logic works if the game was completely linear. Since it's open world, assuming there are side missions of varying difficulties all over the place, the game has to allow players to learn skills that the player thinks is necessary or important for them.
 
Artificially, though.



There are important, classic skills locked deep into the skill tree. How much more do you need to know? I mean, it's great for newbies I guess, but if it's really about teaching newbies how to play then it should be an option to disable for everyone else.

Expert mode: check! All parkour moves unlocked!

This way, people don't get to write off the game as shallow because they never bothered to look up the advanced moves or be bowled over by a lot of little abilities

If Faith feels "complete," from the start, then this won't be a problem.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The graphics look way worse than the first one, at least on this gameplay, also hate the new huge flashy orbs/pathfinder and all that, just takes away the realism...why is the red so saturated, that there are no shadows at all?

what a disapointment

WHAT?! How?! Huh?!
 
There are important, classic skills locked deep into the skill tree. How much more do you need to know? I mean, it's great for newbies I guess, but if it's really about teaching newbies how to play then it should be an option to disable for everyone else.

Expert mode: check! All parkour moves unlocked!

Again: do we know what other skills are in fact locked? I think that would help the discussion a great deal. Coiling is a pretty advanced move.

If rolling, and swinging from poles, and 90-degree-turns, are locked behind XP upgrades, I am pissed. Scitek had implied they were, but I hadn't realized he was joking.

I mean, I'd still prefer if there wasn't any XP, but it's not as bad if the basic moves are available.

This way, people don't get to write off the game as shallow because they never bothered to look up the advanced moves or be bowled over by a lot of little abilities.

There's a very easy way to get the best of both worlds. Make all moves unlocked from the start, but teach them to players at set points in the story.

That logic works if the game was completely linear. Since it's open world, assuming there are side missions of varying difficulties all over the place, the game has to allow players to learn skills that the player thinks is necessary or important for them.

But I don't want to be locked out of a side mission, or have to remember to return to it later, or have an unusually difficult time, because I chose to spend my XP on the wrong ability. And furthermore, I don't think I'm smart enough to know ahead of time what skill will be the most helpful to me in a certain area. And I don't think that's unique to me, either.
 
I know. But i guess it goes with game being open-world. Or... thats what developers think.

It's definitely what developers think because like any entertainment industry they just copy the shit out of what's successful and currently it's The Division and Destiny so AAA games gotta have rpg progression. I suppose we can be glad that the game isn't online only anymore.
 

Garlador

Member
It's so clearly tacked on and it makes no sense for your character to be "progressing" like this. You're not making a build, you're not doing anything intelligent to unlock them, it's just a thing that's there. Because it's all optional none of these things can have a deep meaningful impact on the game because the devs cannot have designed major levels and challenges with these unlocks in mind. Artificial to the max!

Are they truly "optional"?

I'm hoping for a Metroidvania experience where you can't access a level or section of the game unless you have the right abilities. That would require you to unlock that skill to see that part of the game.

Am I being too optimistic?
 
It's definitely what developers think because like any entertainment industry they just copy the shit out of what's successful and currently it's The Division and Destiny so AAA games gotta have rpg progression. I suppose we can be glad that the game isn't online only anymore.

Just want to point out that the game was never online only, or at least, we don't have a reason to believe that it ever was. It was a completely unfounded rumor that came up because it's fun to hate EA.
 

Zojirushi

Member
I don't get this hate for the upgrades... :/ I kinda like them, they make things more interesting. And make you feel like you are progressing during the game. But maybe it's just me.
We still don't know what they are about, we only saw few of them.

Problem is people had a lot of time to become proficient in Mirror's Edge movement in the first game with time trials and stuff. That game was ALL about mastering the movement.

Starting this game and having those people feel incredibly restricted in their ability to move around the world is pretty risky from the devs.

Maybe this is all part of some EA "make it more approachable" kinda thing but I'm gonna say if this game comes out and is only getting bad or lukewarm reception from OG Mirror's Edge people it is deader than dead.
 

NeoRaider

Member
I am surprised that no one is talking about that grappling hook. I think that i saw it in one of the videos. I guess some ppl will not be happy with it too.
 
Are they truly "optional"?

I'm hoping for a Metroidvania experience where you can't access a level or section of the game unless you have the right abilities. That would require you to unlock that skill to see that part of the game.

Am I being too optimistic?

Again, the problem with XP unlocks is that you can't really predict what abilities a player will have at any given time. It's up to the individual player to decide what branches of the skill tree they want to pursue.

For that matter, let's say that XP is tied to the number of enemies you kill—well, a really fast player might choose to avoid combat more often, and end up with less XP than another player might have. You don't want that player to have to spend several hours grinding for XP.

Correct me if I"m wrong, but I don't think there any Metroidvania games that use XP to unlock abilities that are required in order to progress, and this is why.
 
Are they truly "optional"?

I'm hoping for a Metroidvania experience where you can't access a level or section of the game unless you have the right abilities. That would require you to unlock that skill to see that part of the game.

Am I being too optimistic?

That would not be able to work itself into the main story line if they're all just exp unlocks. I really shouldn't have to explain why but just imagine going through the main missions only to be stopped to be told YOU NEED TO HAVE THIS THING TO DO IT and it's on the opposite side of the fuckin tree that you've built towards. So I guess you gotta do some side stuff you didn't want to do to get that unlocked? Somehow I doubt they'd do something that dumb and if they did I wouldn't play the damn game.

Either way it's absolutely not like what Metroid does at all. Metroid gives you tools at set parts in the game that unlock new parts of the map. This upgrade system is based off xp you get for just doing stuff, which I'm 100% sure will get repetitive as hell. You cant do level design around that kind of nonsense.
 
I'm not too worried about having a skill tree. Without it there wouldn't be any incentive to do side missions and that be a point of criticism some might bring up. The game still looks fun to play so I'm still excited.
You could unlock areas of the map or shortcuts for traversal, introduce new story moments, new characters, challenges or events.

There's plenty of possible incentives besides the core move-set, though I do think the very idea of incentives is taken too far these days, and the concept of simple play can get lost in the process of showering the player with various rewards.

I am surprised that no one is talking about that grappling hook. I think that i saw it in one of the videos. I guess some ppl will not be happy with it too.
I was surprised by how much it actually added to the underlying parkour in Dying Light and AC: Syndicate. Was worried it would make parkour useless, but its actually a nice compliment to it in those games.
 

Wanderer5

Member
I am surprised that no one is talking about that grappling hook. I think that i saw it in one of the videos. I guess some ppl will not be happy with it too.

I excited for it, but I kind of hope it is not so automatic if it swing based, like the axe swing in Rise of the Tomb Raider, through it won't be that big of a deal for me.
 

Arion

Member
Problem is people had a lot of time to become proficient in Mirror's Edge movement in the first game with time trials and stuff. That game was ALL about mastering the movement.

Starting this game and having those people feel incredibly restricted in their ability to move around the world is pretty risky from the devs.

Maybe this is all part of some EA "make it more approachable" kinda thing but I'm gonna say if this game comes out and is only getting bad or lukewarm reception from OG Mirror's Edge people it is deader than dead.

Given how the first game sold there are not many of those kind of people in this world. I would say only a fraction of the people who bought the first ME were fully able to understand and master it's movement systems.
 
And here I thought that going open world would be a good way to give players more option as to how they can tackle each mission....

Given how the first game sold there are not many of those kind of people in this world. I would say only a fraction of the people who bought the first ME were fully able to understand and master it's movement systems.

But did it prevent casual player to finish the game though? You can be deep and accessible.
 

A-V-B

Member
Again: do we know what other skills are in fact locked? I think that would help the discussion a great deal. Coiling is a pretty advanced move.

If rolling, and swinging from poles, and 90-degree-turns, are locked behind XP upgrades, I am pissed. Scitek had implied they were, but I hadn't realized he was joking.

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Zojirushi

Member
Given how the first game sold there are not many of those kind of people in this world. I would say only a fraction of the people who bought the first ME were fully able to understand and master it's movement systems.

You're probably right.

I'm not too worried about this either, this could all work in an open world scenario so we'll just have to wait and see.

I guess what I am worried about a little is the game taking too much time to get fun, like, let's say once you get all the stuff you're used to in ME1 you're already more than halfway through the game.
 
I am surprised that no one is talking about that grappling hook. I think that i saw it in one of the videos. I guess some ppl will not be happy with it too.

I'm assuming it's only usable in a limited set of circumstances, correct? I didn't like how the grappling hook in AC:Syndacate let you just effortlessly fly up to whatever building outcropping you saw. I'd go so far as to say that would actually break the entire concept behind Mirror's Edge.

As a more limited tool, though, I'm all for it, Grappling hooks are cool. :3
 

viveks86

Member
Looks fantastic. Just let me disable the holograms and button prompts please? Not too worried about the XP progression.
 

A-V-B

Member
I'm assuming it's only usable in a limited set of circumstances, correct? I didn't like how the grappling hook in AC:Syndacate let you just effortlessly fly up to whatever building outcropping you saw. I'd go so far as to say that would actually break the entire concept behind Mirror's Edge.

As a more limited tool, though, I'm all for it, Grappling hooks are cool. :3

Yeah, if it's a tool with limited use that you find later to reach secret spots, that's no big deal. That's actually like Metroidvania and is sort of okay.
 

Arion

Member
But did it prevent casual player to finish the game though? You can be deep and accessible.

I agree with you. However with a progression system like this you can better teach casual players the more complex game systems. As a a result they might better understand why this game is so revered in some circles. Catalyst seems like it still has the depth of the original but the concession is you wont have it from the get go.

As A-V-B mentioned having an Expert mode, where everything is unlocked form the start, would be the best of both worlds.

Y'know, I don't think I mind the flying-wisp-of-red runner vision they've added. One of my big problems with the original game is that even with runner vision, it often wasn't obvious where to go. Or, it was obvious, but not obvious enough—in a game about running, I don't have time to look around, so my path needs to be really obvious.

I would have rather they solved this problem by increasing the frequency of objects highlighted in red, but meh, this wisp-thing works too.

I think a preview mentioned you have the option to turn off the runner ghost and only have object highlights or just turn of all hints all together.
 
Y'know, I don't think I mind the flying-wisp-of-red runner vision they've added. One of my big problems with the original game is that even with runner vision, it often wasn't obvious where to go. Or, it was obvious, but not obvious enough—in a game about running, I don't have time to look around, so my path needs to be really obvious.

I would have rather they solved this problem by increasing the frequency of objects highlighted in red, but meh, this wisp-thing works too.
 

thumb

Banned
Given how the first game sold there are not many of those kind of people in this world. I would say only a fraction of the people who bought the first ME were fully able to understand and master it's movement systems.

Indeed. It's also possible that play testing revealed that it was better to slowly introduce the various moves via an upgrade system. Making the moves feel like "rewards" might make players more interested in using and mastering them.


Edit - And you've said something similar above.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Nothing I am seeing here makes me want this any less. If anything, I think the skill tree makes me MORE interested.
 

A-V-B

Member
I agree with you. However with a progression system like this you can better teach casual players the more complex game systems. As a a result they might better understand why this game is so revered in some circles. Catalyst seems like it still has the depth of the original but the concession is you wont have it from the get go.

As A-V-B mentioned having an Expert mode, where everything is unlocked, would be the best of both worlds.

The only problem is having an Expert mode wouldn't stop the fact that the game was designed around handholding new players around the whole world. It'd be like using a gigantic combine to mow the lawn, and then there's only some grain in the last 5 percent.
 

StoveOven

Banned
The skill tree either means that basic parkour mechanics aren't needed to beat the game or that missions are gated based on what skills you have. I would be okay with the latter, but the former would be a huge bummer
 
The problem with the way moves were introduced in original game is it had this big infodump at the beginning where they show you how to do literally everything, and then they never mention any of it again. Since this infodump includes moves you don't need until late in the game, of COURSE players are going to forget stuff. It was a legitimate problem that DICE needed to address.

I just wish they hadn't decided to tie moves to XP. There are SO many better ways they could have solved this.
 
I agree with you. However with a progression system like this you can better teach casual players the more complex game systems. As a a result they might better understand why this game is so revered in some circles. Catalyst seems like it still has the depth of the original but the concession is you wont have it from the get go.

As A-V-B mentioned having an Expert mode, where everything is unlocked form the start, would be the best of both worlds.

Knowing EA that's going to be a pipe dream. I just hope that the level design isn't to much affected by the upgrade system.
 
It's possible that having long legs isn't the point here. Making Mirror's Edge 3, 4 and 5 is. Repeat short term audience, not loyal long term.

Do we expect there to be a Mirror's Edge Three, Four, and Five? As much as I love ME and think it has enormous potential, I don't think the potential audience is big enough to support a biannual franchise. Plus, it's really difficult to churn out polished single player games that quickly.

I see, at best, a release pattern similar to Grand Theft Auto, with maybe two releases per console generation.
 
I think a preview mentioned you have the option to turn off the runner ghost and only have object highlights or just turn of all hints all together.

Yeah, I know it can be turned off—you could turn off all runner vision in the original game too—but my point is that I like it and will probably leave it turned on.

Yeah, I hope they fix a bullshit design decision with paid DLC. Wait, what?
It's far from ideal, but it's better than being stuck with an XP system. Again, Mirror's Edge is special... I don't mind paying a bit more than full price. In any other game, I'd just walk away, but not here.
 

Arion

Member
The only problem is having an Expert mode wouldn't stop the fact that the game was designed around handholding new players around the whole world. It'd be like using a gigantic combine to mow the lawn, and then there's only some grain in the last 5 percent.

Well you could complete the original ME without fully mastering the movement system. It wasn't that difficult because the real challenge came from wanting to complete the game as fast as possible. I am assuming a similar situation here. You can complete the game following the normal progression or immediately start competing against the clock.
 
The problem with the way moves were introduced in original game is it had this big infodump at the beginning where they show you how to do literally everything, and then they never mention any of it again. Since this infodump includes moves you don't need until late in the game, of COURSE players are going to forget stuff. It was a legitimate problem that DICE needed to address.

They could do what most every other modern AAA game does these days: Nagging players with button prompts telling them exactly what to do, with an option to turn that shit off.
 

A-V-B

Member
Do we expect there to be a Mirror's Edge Three, Four, and Five? As much as I love ME and think it has enormous potential, I don't think the potential audience is big enough to support a biannual franchise.

A company like EA has to plan for that, and I reckon it's one of the things that got Catalyst made in the first place. The original didn't sell much at first, but it grew a cult audience and lots of industry kudos. So whoever pitched Catalyst probably used the old loyal fanbase as a stepping stone to growing out into a massive casual audience.

"Look at what we had from something as flawed as the original! If we just did this, this, and this, it could skyrocket into the stratosphere!"

Maybe this is an overly cynical viewpoint, but I do not see EA dumping loads of cash into a financially scary idea like a Mirror's Edge sequel/franchise without a safety net.
 

thumb

Banned
A company like EA has to plan for that, and I reckon it's one of the things that got Catalyst made in the first place. The original didn't sell much at first, but it grew a cult audience and lots of industry kudos. So whoever pitched Catalyst probably used the old loyal fanbase as a stepping stone to growing out into a massive casual audience.

"Look at what we had from something as flawed as the original! If we just did this, this, and this, it could skyrocket into the stratosphere!"

Maybe this is an overly cynical viewpoint, but I do not see EA dumping loads of cash into a financially scary idea like a Mirror's Edge sequel/franchise without a safety net.

I think you're mostly right. There are also titles that are "prestige" titles--games released by large publishers with smaller expected returns but with high industry accolades and inventiveness (e.g., Child of Light). These titles allow developers to work on passion projects (which keeps them happy) and may help attract new talent.

I suspect that Mirror's Edge Catalyst is halfway between a prestige title and a normal AAA release.
 

eso76

Member
WHAT?! How?! Huh?!

I guess he must be talking about aesthetical choices.
I also preferred the stylised impossibly blue sky against white skyscrapers of ME1 to the pale grey/light blueish tinted ones seen here tbh.
The original had this distinctive look from using bold, saturated colours paired with very realistic baked lighting. Catalyst seems to be using slightly subtler, more realistic tones. It looks great, lighting is extremely convincing (and dynamic as opposed to baked) but the game has lost an ever so small amount of visual personality. From what I've seen at least.
But like I said elsewhere, having dynamic tod naturally means losing some control over the aesthetics.
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
I don't get this hate for the upgrades... :/ I kinda like them, they make things more interesting. And make you feel like you are progressing during the game. But maybe it's just me.
We still don't know what they are about, we only saw few of them.

We don't need them, we don't need an XP bar or any level up mechanic, we could easily just have had all the abilities from the beginning and unlock some additional equipment.

All XP bars do is make you wait till the end of the game to play the game the way you originally wanted to play it. Then you have almost nothing except completionist stuff to use your cool moves on.
 

A-V-B

Member
I think you're mostly right. There are also titles that are "prestige" titles--games released by large publishers with smaller expected returns but with high industry accolades and inventiveness (e.g., Child of Light). These titles allow developers to work on passion projects (which keeps them happy) and may help attract new talent.

I suspect that Mirror's Edge Catalyst is halfway between a prestige title and a normal AAA release.

Except a prestige title is devs making what they want to make, right? A passion project. A AAA game is very financially driven.

If you try and mix the two, won't you get something resembling a confused blob?
 
Guys, if swinging from bars is locked behind a XP upgrade, does that mean the main story missions can't have any sections where you swing across bars?

That's pretty major. Rolls, quickturns, etc all make the game feel a lot better, but you could technically beat the original without ever using them.
 
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