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When the Left Turns on Its Own (NYT Opinion)

TyrantII

Member
Yep. It's amazing how readily people accept right-wing framing of a new story.

The right wing had also pushed the both sides suck narrative, don't settle narrative, and the voting doesn't matter narrative. To spectacular effect, the left has bought into those frames of debate and adopted it rather than building large constituencies that pull their leaders to the policies they want (which historically had been what's worked very well).

The left not framing debate on their terms has been a Huge problem from multiple angles these past 30 years.
 

Dyle

Member
So it is misguided anger directed towards Professor Weinstein? Why do they consider him a racist and want him fired if he had nothing to do with the situation you described?

Because it comes down to more than just what he said, but when and how he said it. If you were in a full theater and a cigarette lit a trash can on fire, would shout FIRE! knowing it would incite a panic or find an usher who could follow their training and extinguish it safely? The way Weinstein sent this email, even though it was correct and justified, was extremely careless and indicated a lack of awareness of how tense the campus was. By sending this email to all staff, including hundreds of students he could not have possibly chosen a worse method of delivery. If he had written an op-ed in the school newspaper, the editors likely would have advised against publishing it, or at least if it were a Facebook post, not everyone would have seen it at once. His decision to publish this letter, which was totally justified, was foolish at best, negligent at worst and demonstrates a lack of sympathy for the students who had been organizing and protesting before this letter came out.
 
"We can threaten your job but don't you dare talk to anyone about it as our actions might reflect really negatively on us"

Pretty much what I am interpreting from reading through the topic as well. Downright despicable and makes the University look so bad, solely because the professor was not being even defended by the administration, they actively tried to throw him under the bus.
 
Because it comes down to more than just what he said, but when and how he said it. If you were in a full theater and a cigarette lit a trash can on fire, would shout FIRE! knowing it would incite a panic or find an usher who could follow their training and extinguish it safely? The way Weinstein sent this email, even though it was correct and justified, was extremely careless and indicated a lack of awareness of how tense the campus was. By sending this email to all staff, including hundreds of students he could not have possibly chosen a worse method of delivery. If he had written an op-ed in the school newspaper, the editors likely would have advised against publishing it, or at least if it were a Facebook post, not everyone would have seen it at once. His decision to publish this letter, which was totally justified, was foolish at best, negligent at worst and demonstrates a lack of sympathy for the students who had been organizing and protesting before this letter came out.
He wrote the letter in March.
 
So it is misguided anger directed towards Professor Weinstein? Why do they consider him a racist and want him fired if he had nothing to do with the situation you described?
Didnt you get the memo? They are righteously outraged and that frees them from any critique or criticism. So you better shut up.
 
The first emails were from November, actually. Which you would know if you'd looked into it at all.
The letter Weinstein wrote about the day of absence was written on March 15th. There were discussions (edit: starting) in 2016 about equity. Thanks for being condescending, though. Always appreciated.
 

Dyle

Member
He wrote the letter in March.

The first emails were from November, actually. Which you would know if you'd looked into it at all.

The letter Weinstein wrote about the day of absence was written on March 15th. There were discussions in 2016 about equity. Thanks for being condescending, though. Always appreciated.

Man there really needs to be a good summary of what happened, because I totally thought all of this happened in the last month from reading everything that's been posted, not sure how I missed the dates. But it doesn't change the fact that Weinstein should have known better than to have sent this email, which would have been fairly controversial at any time, to hundreds of faculty and staff. It's highly unprofessional and not a proper way to voice concerns
 
Man there really needs to be a good summary of what happened, because I totally thought all of this happened in the last month from reading everything that's been posted, not sure how I missed the dates. But it doesn't change the fact that Weinstein should have known better than to have sent this email, which would have been fairly controversial at any time, to hundreds of faculty and staff. It's highly unprofessional and not a proper way to voice concerns

It's actually pretty easy to understand the timeline when you realize that tensions had been rising on campus for several months between students and the administration, that the professor was involved in several conversations against equality measures on campus prior to the most recent one, and the fact that the majority of the protests and their demands had nothing to do with him really other than some students confronting him for positions he had taken since Nov last year.

But context doesn't sell to the media or get you on Tucker Carlson, so a lot of that had to get dropped in favor of "professor sends dumb email, students riot."
 

KHarvey16

Member
Man there really needs to be a good summary of what happened, because I totally thought all of this happened in the last month from reading everything that's been posted, not sure how I missed the dates. But it doesn't change the fact that Weinstein should have known better than to have sent this email, which would have been fairly controversial at any time, to hundreds of faculty and staff. It's highly unprofessional and not a proper way to voice concerns

Highly unprofessional? Unless there's some significant context I'm missing, his email seems perfectly fine.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.
 
The video of the students confronting Weinstein went viral before Fox News interviewed him. That being the only piece of information people had aside from another video of protesters yelling at the president framed the narrative.
 

Future

Member
It's actually pretty easy to understand the timeline when you realize that tensions had been rising on campus for several months between students and the administration, that the professor was involved in several conversations against equality measures on campus prior to the most recent one, and the fact that the majority of the protests and their demands had nothing to do with him really other than some students confronting him for positions he had taken since Nov last year.

But context doesn't sell to the media or get you on Tucker Carlson, so a lot of that had to get dropped in favor of "professor sends dumb email, students riot."

Any links explaining some of that background. Searching for Bret Weinstein only results in the same news in the OP. What were these conversations against equality measures?
 
Any links explaining some of that background. Searching for Bret Weinstein only results in the same news in the OP. What were these conversations against equality measures?

The school newspaper (Cooperpoint Journal I think) has written about stuff several times, they're a pretty good source if you want to see things from the perspective of a student on campus for this stuff.
 

entremet

Member
Man there really needs to be a good summary of what happened, because I totally thought all of this happened in the last month from reading everything that's been posted, not sure how I missed the dates. But it doesn't change the fact that Weinstein should have known better than to have sent this email, which would have been fairly controversial at any time, to hundreds of faculty and staff. It's highly unprofessional and not a proper way to voice concerns
The Joe Rogan podcast is a good start. Yes, it is from the professor's perspective, but you can hear in his voice that he loves the college and the students there.

He also provides a lot background.

Unfortunately nuance is dead, so some may even elect to close their ears due to calls of bias sources. I mean, he's a primary source!
 
Man there really needs to be a good summary of what happened, because I totally thought all of this happened in the last month from reading everything that's been posted, not sure how I missed the dates. But it doesn't change the fact that Weinstein should have known better than to have sent this email, which would have been fairly controversial at any time, to hundreds of faculty and staff. It's highly unprofessional and not a proper way to voice concerns


It blew up because the school paper published the email. It appears it wasn't the issue that it was until the email become public.

He sent an email, voicing his opinion in a rational tone. The reaction against him was highly inappropriate and yet I continue to see everything blamed except for those actually carrying out this aggression
 
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.

Well thought out articulate post, I appreciate you taking the time to write out your thoughts
 
Because it comes down to more than just what he said, but when and how he said it. If you were in a full theater and a cigarette lit a trash can on fire, would shout FIRE! knowing it would incite a panic or find an usher who could follow their training and extinguish it safely? The way Weinstein sent this email, even though it was correct and justified, was extremely careless and indicated a lack of awareness of how tense the campus was. By sending this email to all staff, including hundreds of students he could not have possibly chosen a worse method of delivery. If he had written an op-ed in the school newspaper, the editors likely would have advised against publishing it, or at least if it were a Facebook post, not everyone would have seen it at once. His decision to publish this letter, which was totally justified, was foolish at best, negligent at worst and demonstrates a lack of sympathy for the students who had been organizing and protesting before this letter came out.

This is a ridiculously and callously cavalier attitude toward academic freedom. These students are adults, it is reasonable to expect them not to act like an angry Cultural Revolution mob because a white professor voiced an objection to a particular protest and has bureaucratic objections to the proposed Equity Council.
 

Dyle

Member
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he does justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the position he presented. Yeah, that annual event is a complicated issue; It's the kind of thing that merits a civil debate about in an academic setting, not immediate ostraciziation and a hostile mob shutting down all conversation and only looking to achieve his removal by whatever means necessary.

The issue re: the merits of the initial event and whether its exclusionary nature is appropriate or worthwhile? That's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.

I will never be able to quote this enough, thank you for putting into words what I've struggled to express. I'm always impressed by how well written your posts are
 

Trokil

Banned
He sent an email, voicing his opinion in a rational tone. The reaction against him was highly inappropriate and yet I continue to see everything blamed except for those actually carrying out this aggression

It was said in this very thread, he made them look bad. So they blame it on him than rather on the people who started it. It is the same spirit you will find inside the police or many other groups. Not the people behaving badly or the dirty cops will get the blame, but the people exposing them.

It is incredible strange to see this, but it all fits including blaming the victim.
 

entremet

Member
This is a ridiculously and callously cavalier attitude toward academic freedom. These students are adults, it is reasonable to expect them not to act like an angry Cultural Revolution mob because a white professor voiced an objection to a particular protest and has bureaucratic objections to the proposed Equity Council.
It's an infantilzing of legal adults.
 

Future

Member
The school newspaper (Cooperpoint Journal I think) has written about stuff several times, they're a pretty good source if you want to see things from the perspective of a student on campus for this stuff.

After some research I found this

http://www.cooperpointjournal.com/2...roversy-over-race-and-diversity-at-evergreen/

I'm not sure about that journal being an impartial source of some of these events, as a lot of these columns seem to voice opinion. But reading that I'm not sure I am understanding the vitriol against him, even before the more current emails. In particular:

Weinstein took particular issue with one policy, put in place to encourage equity at Evergreen “faculty voted to require official, yearly reflections on our individual progress relative to racial diversity.” He appears to conflate this attempt to mend historical inequality and combat racism at Evergreen, with discrimination against white people, writing, “It is hard to imagine a person of color being flagged by a conversion panel, or as an internal hiring candidate, due to their yearly reflections revealing cryptic bias, or insufficient progress with respect to race. But it is all too easy to imagine a white person (whatever that is taken to mean) being challenged on this basis.” He continues that as a result of these and other diversity policies, “We have now imposed on ourselves a de facto hierarchy based on skin color, and hooked it directly to mechanisms of hiring, promotion and dismissal–empowering some, and disempowering others.”

I feel like I can see both sides of that one. It certainly isn't evidence of him being against diversity or anything that extreme
 

Shiggy

Member
After some research I found this

http://www.cooperpointjournal.com/2...roversy-over-race-and-diversity-at-evergreen/

I'm not sure about that journal being an impartial source of some of these events, as a lot of these columns seem to voice opinion. But reading that I'm not sure I am understanding the vitriol against him, even before the more current emails. In particular:



I feel like I can see both sides of that one. It certainly isn't evidence of him being against diversity or anything that extreme


In the WSJ, Weinstein explained his position:

Things began to change at Evergreen in 2015, when the school hired a new president, George Bridges. His vision as an administrator involved reducing professorial autonomy, increasing the size of his administration, and breaking apart Evergreen’s full-time programs. But the faculty, which plays a central role in the college’s governance, would never have agreed to these changes. So Mr. Bridges tampered with the delicate balance between the sciences and humanities by, in effect, arming the postmoderns. The particular mechanism was arcane, but it involved an Equity Council established in 2016. The council advanced a plan that few seem to have read, even now—but that faculty were nonetheless told we must accept without discussion. It would shift the college “from a diversity agenda” to an “equity agenda” by, among other things, requiring an “equity justification” for every faculty hire.

The plan and the way it is being forced on the college are both deeply authoritarian, and the attempt to mandate equality of outcome is unwise in the extreme. Equality of outcome is a discredited concept, failing on both logical and historical grounds, as anyone knows who has studied the misery of the 20th century. It wouldn’t have withstood 20 minutes of reasoned discussion. This presented traditional independent academic minds with a choice: Accept the plan and let the intellectual descendants of Critical Race Theory dictate the bounds of permissible thought to the sciences and the rest of the college, or insist on discussing the plan’s shortcomings and be branded as racists. Most of my colleagues chose the former, and the protesters are in the process of articulating the terms. I dissented and ended up teaching in the park.
 
These liberals are such a small portion of the electorate and they are basically powerless off campus unlike the crazy right which forms cohesive racial coalitions that elect politicians to office to legislate murder.
 
These liberals are such a small portion of the electorate and they are basically powerless off campus unlike the crazy right which forms cohesive racial coalitions that elect politicians to office to legislate murder.

The Tea Party started off as a fringe, too. I'm as interested in keeping the critical theory left from becoming a driving force in American liberalism as others are in keeping the Bernie Bros from being the same.
 

Trokil

Banned
These liberals are such a small portion of the electorate and they are basically powerless off campus unlike the crazy right which forms cohesive racial coalitions that elect politicians to office to legislate murder.

Incompetence is not really something which a lot of people would add as a plus point for the movement. It only does not work, because it is never enough, there is always somebody more radical, more pure and he or she will use that. So the movement eats its own children.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Man there really needs to be a good summary of what happened, because I totally thought all of this happened in the last month from reading everything that's been posted, not sure how I missed the dates. But it doesn't change the fact that Weinstein should have known better than to have sent this email, which would have been fairly controversial at any time, to hundreds of faculty and staff. It's highly unprofessional and not a proper way to voice concerns

When you have people arguing that there's no wrong way to protest, I'm not sure how this line can also be true (not saying you're stating this, but just following on from points of thought about this issue.). A listserv for faculty and related students seems like a perfectly fine place to post your rationale; it certainly didn't come off as sloppily-composed and off-the-cuff. If it had been a faculty-only list, then it still could have leaked and people would be hounding him for that too. So I'm not sure what the "right" way to voice concerns here would be.

(At least at my college, professors never did op-eds or the like in the student newspaper; there was intended to be something of a wall between the student body and the paper's professors, similar to the editorial|advertising separation. Short of being directly interviewed I'm not sure how a teacher at my university could have expressed these opinions.)
 
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

Wait, so I wasn't going crazy? Does this mean GAF is back to normal?
 

Skinpop

Member
These liberals are such a small portion of the electorate and they are basically powerless off campus unlike the crazy right which forms cohesive racial coalitions that elect politicians to office to legislate murder.

are they liberals though? where I'm from this kind of behavior tend to be associated with hard left, marxism, syndicalism and so on.
 
After some research I found this

http://www.cooperpointjournal.com/2...roversy-over-race-and-diversity-at-evergreen/

I'm not sure about that journal being an impartial source of some of these events, as a lot of these columns seem to voice opinion. But reading that I'm not sure I am understanding the vitriol against him, even before the more current emails. In particular:

This was at the bottom of the piece

POC Talk is a space to focus on the unique experiences people of color face at Evergreen and in Olympia. It is written anonymously by an Evergreen Student of Color in an effort to specifically discuss POC issues. We want to center and boost POC voices so if you have something to add you can submit your questions, comments, concerns, or ideas for what you would like POC Talk to cover to poctalk@cooperpointjournal.com
 

Future

Member
are they liberals though? where I'm from this kind of behavior tend to be associated with hard left, marxism, syndicalism and so on.

I fee like there is a belief that if you don't 100% adhere to anything and everything that could forcefully push minorities ahead, then you are equated with the opposite view of trying to keep them down. And then there is no rational conversation to be had: you are now one of them
 
I'm kind of tired of the focus on campus politics. These people are quite often very new to the left, so of course many of their actions will lack the thoughtfulness of the average activist.

It's pretty damning that it is such a focus of right-wing pundits. It's as if 20-something college students with no actual power are the only "liberal" voices they can find who are as ignorant as actual GOP lawmakers
 

TyrantII

Member
The Tea Party started off as a fringe, too. I'm as interested in keeping the critical theory left from becoming a driving force in American liberalism as others are in keeping the Bernie Bros from being the same.

Funded by major monied interests. Plus the left tends to protest and then just goes home when the political organize thing is supposed to start; due to infighting as seen here. Politics is unclean, and unpure, and that makes it too difficult to run a campaign so better to just protest!

Occupy is a good example. A wasted movement that ate itself and refused to do the hard work that would come next: elect leaders to office to capitalize on the movement and enact policy change.

It doesn't help that quite a few people on the far left have made this into a business much like those in the right wing echo chamber. It's not as lucrative, but you can pay the bills with left outrage and posturing all the same.
 

Tagg9

Member
Wait, so I wasn't going crazy? Does this mean GAF is back to normal?

Yeah, I had no awareness of this either.

It's good to know that users won't be immediately tarred and feathered for simply expressing a different opinion than the hivemind. When someone expresses an opinion different from our own, we should take the time to listen to their viewpoint and if it does indeed seem immoral, racist, sexist, etc., then take the opportunity to rationally discuss and educate that person. In the vast majority of cases, immediately declaring the person a bigot is counterproductive, as can be seen with Prof Weinstein (who appears extremely progressive, open-minded, is pushing for equity and equality, etc.). I feel if only the students had listened to Weinstein with an open mind and allowed him to explain his viewpoints, it would not have escalated beyond his class being interrupted the first time.
 
Occupy is a good example. A wasted movement that ate itself and refused to do the hard work that would come next: elect leaders to office to capitalize on the movement and enact policy change.
So, interestingly enough, Weinstein was part of the Occupy movement and is working with a group to change the world without an actual revolution. You may be be able to see part of it in his Tedx talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjNRtrZjkfE
 

devilhawk

Member
It's pretty damning that it is such a focus of right-wing pundits. It's as if 20-something college students with no actual power are the only "liberal" voices they can find who are as ignorant as actual GOP lawmakers
The ability to get people fired, endanger the safety of employees, students and their families, shatter reputations, and tank enrollment and budgets sure sounds like power to me.
 

Dyle

Member
This is a ridiculously and callously cavalier attitude toward academic freedom. These students are adults, it is reasonable to expect them not to act like an angry Cultural Revolution mob because a white professor voiced an objection to a particular protest and has bureaucratic objections to the proposed Equity Council.
First I'd just like to say that that post was written on misinformation that this had gone down on a much shorter timeframe than it did. Much of what I said in this is based off of my personal experiences in college where I had professors who published/said similarly controversial statements that were twisted/taken out of context in ways that they did not intend or expect. One of them told our class that he regretted what had been published, because it had inadvertently damaged the discourse on campus and had made students feel unsafe. There is a middle ground between coarse academic freedom and creating a community where students feel safe to speak their mind, and he felt that he had hewed too close towards cold academia. I realize that I may have erred by relying too much on what happened at my alma mater and how students and staff reacted to it.

What I have posted is not meant to defend, in any way, either what the students or the professor have done, both have done things worthy of criticism, if not only to determine why they acted the way they did. I won't be posting any more in this thread because the details of this event are difficult to pin down and despite reading this op ed, the highered articles, the student newspapers, and the interview with Tucker Carlson, there is still not a clear picture of exactly what happened. These things are complicated and deserve careful discussion, but until there's a clear chain of events verified by a reputable source, we'll continue to speak about amorphous, changing perspectives of a complex story.
 

rokkerkory

Member
I think for every action there is an equal reaction. Trump is so far idiotic and crazy that it'll cause the most sensible people can become stupid.
 
It's pretty damning that it is such a focus of right-wing pundits. It's as if 20-something college students with no actual power are the only "liberal" voices they can find who are as ignorant as actual GOP lawmakers


They essentially run the school, if you saw how the president cow towed to them
 
This is all very reminiscent of what happened to off-topic for a couple months post-election. Of course, that madness turned out to be directly induced through sabotage by a now-former admin secretly banning *hundreds* of members totally outside of any justifiable grounds (not that any attempt at justification was made to begin with, being undisclosed and undocumented bans) in some 85-90% of each of those bans that were subsequently investigated after we became aware of the incident.

NeoGAF is a discussion forum; the whole point is to disseminate information and debate it, on civil terms, in an atmosphere that encourages healthy skepticism, fact-checking and credible sourcing, challenging preexisting worldviews and talking points and biases by providing a platform for a diverse audience to contribute, etc. And yes, the site does lean progressive, because it is inclusive and evidence-based and intolerant of hate speech. But while there are core values associated with this place, there's no point in discussion without providing a framework that allows for multiple perspectives to engage with each other.

I mention all this because, particularly for those couple months I mentioned when anyone trying to operate in good faith within the aforementioned parameters I've set up for this place ended up sniped en masse, Off-Topic suddenly became unrecognizable to me some 15 or 16 years after we set this side of the forum up. The place kinda turned into what this Evergreen outcome sounds like: with everyone who tried to contribute to civil discourse systematically thrown down the well, the remaining members either stayed silent or radicalized up, and we were left with a squad of polarized "progressives" unwilling to have a conversation with anyone about issues, repeating the same talking points in every thread to each other in a self-righteous echo chamber, newly confident that any non-conformity would be driven out or otherwise made to disappear. This was not just ostracizing people attempting to challenge reductive, exclusionary "with us or against us" polarized rhetoric, either (and that should absolutely be challenged), but also anyone even trying to have a conversation within that radicalized bubble. People were driven out, character assassinated, labeled traitor for "not sounding angry enough," or for not being entirely on board with ostracizing someone else for the same reasons.

There's nothing righteous, informed, or progressive about that. It's just a sanctimonious, vitriolic, self-destructive circle jerk that drives out the kind of people most valuable to discussion: not the "retweet my Side and quote it in yells or else you're The Enemy" people, but the people engaging on each individual issue with critical thought and an open mind, willingness and capacity to perform independent investigation into the materials initially presented, come to an independent conclusion and present it, and to allow the same from folks who have made similar effort but with different credible sources or different justifiable conclusions than your own.

That's the sort of thing I'm seeing here. Professor's conclusions about the event that prompted the protests should certainly be challenged, but he did justify his positions reasonably and stay civil throughout the argument he presented. Yeah, that annual event change-up is a complicated issue, as we can see by all the folks here struggling with the right and wrong of it, so it's absolutely a legitimate topic for an academic debate. And that's all he did: debate the merits of it and the campus ethics of an exclusionary event with what he felt were undercurrents of pressure to comply or end up branded a racist/traitor/whatever.

...and now we're seeing exactly that, with an aggressive push for his removal, threats against him, and even an order issued that the chief of campus police not take measures to ensure the professor's safety on campus.

Smear campaign articles posted earlier here that attribute *swastikas* being spraypainted by some apparent alt-right dickwads who have involved themselves here, and doxxing alleged to have occurred at some point along the way by third parties unrelated to the professor (alt-right again apparently latching onto this), all somehow ultimately being the the fault of this *progressive activist Jewish professor* (who as far as I can tell has sound credentials, and who one of his long-time students personally vouched for in this thread as someone who wouldn't have a disingenuous, racially motivated angle with this thing) for daring to break formation and have an academic conversation that scrutinized something on "the progressive side" that day.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

World isn't binary, folks. Hyper-partisan, radical, binary, "us or them" environments with constant purity tests demanding adherence to the pre-established talking point of the hour breeds ignorance, intolerance, hate, and self-destruction.

This is why we talk about things. This is why diversity of background/ethnicity/orientation/culture is important within an environment like a campus or a message board: not just as an outcome better representing the diversity of the population it's pulling its membership body from, but critically for the diversity of perspective that results from that intense microcosm you've built, and the insight and nuance of thought it can bring to each participant when they share an appropriately moderated space and each have a fair voice.

That's why we talk about things.
Wow really good post. I guess now I see your reasoning why you've always been against creating sub sections of gaming and off topic. Props to you Evilore for sharing.
 
First I'd just like to say that that post was written on misinformation that this had gone down on a much shorter timeframe than it did. Much of what I said in this is based off of my personal experiences in college where I had professors who published/said similarly controversial statements that were twisted/taken out of context in ways that they did not intend or expect. One of them told our class that he regretted what had been published, because it had inadvertently damaged the discourse on campus and had made students feel unsafe. There is a middle ground between coarse academic freedom and creating a community where students feel safe to speak their mind, and he felt that he had hewed too close towards cold academia. I realize that I may have erred by relying too much on what happened at my alma mater and how students and staff reacted to it.

What I have posted is not meant to defend, in any way, either what the students or the professor have done, both have done things worthy of criticism, if not only to determine why they acted the way they did. I won't be posting any more in this thread because the details of this event are difficult to pin down and despite reading this op ed, the highered articles, the student newspapers, and the interview with Tucker Carlson, there is still not a clear picture of exactly what happened. These things are complicated and deserve careful discussion, but until there's a clear chain of events verified by a reputable source, we'll continue to speak about amorphous, changing perspectives of a complex story.

I have a problem with how "unsafe" has, as a word, metastasized into encompassing pretty much any level of discomfort or challenge. It seems like the specialized meaning of "safe" used for "safe spaces" is now being used to measure more general experience on campus, which is a huge fucking problem if one does not wholly support all of the arguments that tend to emerge from these groups and do not want the campus, as a whole, not individual faculty members to be so strictly held to them.
 
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