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The Kotaku Destiny 2 Review Is Something Else
- Thread starter Strakt
- Start date
Long?
Sure.
Enjoyable?
Your miliage may vary.
I saw it earlier today, started reading it trying to find the "reviewy bits", and instead found a long narrative about people's experiences with the Destiny franchise (and to some extent Halo), became bored looking for the information I was curious about and moved on with my life.
Kudos (like the granola bar) to them for trying something different in a review, but I came away from it having no idea if they liked the game or not... (Mostly because I never made it to any part that looks like a review. Perhaps there is one in there, perhaps not).
Sure.
Enjoyable?
Your miliage may vary.
I saw it earlier today, started reading it trying to find the "reviewy bits", and instead found a long narrative about people's experiences with the Destiny franchise (and to some extent Halo), became bored looking for the information I was curious about and moved on with my life.
Kudos (like the granola bar) to them for trying something different in a review, but I came away from it having no idea if they liked the game or not... (Mostly because I never made it to any part that looks like a review. Perhaps there is one in there, perhaps not).
It's Kirk Hamilton. He and Schreier love Destiny to death. I applaud him for trying something different, but as someone who isn't a Destiny fan I lost interest pretty quick.
Pretty much this for me as well.
I read up through Act II, starting scrolling down the page to see how much more I was in for, my eyes turned to glass as the scrollbar kept moving. I then spot-checked a few paragraphs randomly to get a sense of what could be culled from this teleplay novella. Found little of substance to keep my attention focused. Closed window.
I do applaud anything that tries to break from the norm(especially for game reviews), but this may have gone a bit far or lacked a strong enough hook in the intro paragraph to get me on board for the whole ride.
benicillin
Banned
Kirk Hamilton's Destiny coverage for Kotaku has long been one of my favorite things about the site and this is no different.
electricpirate
Member
Destiny 2 is in such a weird unique position for a game, that I think this review is a lot more informative than a standard review. Most reviews (like angry Joes) go through this effort of box ticking; does this feature work? Is there more content?
I think a review that centers the player and their possible relationship to a game like destiny is a smarter way to do it. Are you just casual and want to have a runthrough and some light grinding? Do you want to recreate that 1000+ hours of Destiny 1 and had some weird mixed relationship? This takes the extended metaphor out maybe a bit too far, but I think it's genuinely better and more useful than just ticking down the boxes of features.
I hope we see more stuff like this.
(Random asaide, I almost bumpbed into Stephen Totillo tranfserring trainsyesterday. I have the worst celebrity encounters
)
I think a review that centers the player and their possible relationship to a game like destiny is a smarter way to do it. Are you just casual and want to have a runthrough and some light grinding? Do you want to recreate that 1000+ hours of Destiny 1 and had some weird mixed relationship? This takes the extended metaphor out maybe a bit too far, but I think it's genuinely better and more useful than just ticking down the boxes of features.
I hope we see more stuff like this.
(Random asaide, I almost bumpbed into Stephen Totillo tranfserring trainsyesterday. I have the worst celebrity encounters
)This what I said in the Destiny review thread:
I'm all for ditching the traditional review format and experimenting. So I honor the spirit of Kirk's experiment. But it's a separate question when it comes the effectiveness of the experiment.
For example, imagine you asked me what I thought of Dishonored 2, and I answered as follows:
There's a lot of veribiage on offer, and a lot of it is either irrelevant or ambiguous.
I'm all for ditching the traditional review format and experimenting. So I honor the spirit of Kirk's experiment. But it's a separate question when it comes the effectiveness of the experiment.
For example, imagine you asked me what I thought of Dishonored 2, and I answered as follows:
There's a lot of veribiage on offer, and a lot of it is either irrelevant or ambiguous.
And I just made my own Kotaku thread. Don't like it? Don't respond.
FWIW, Angry Joe's review has the same problem as this one from Kotaku:
I want to get back to playing Destiny 2, I don't have time for all this long format reveiw bullshit, just tell me if you liked the game or not already!
Time is Glimmer, friend.
I don't need a Game of Thrones style narrative to tell me if you liked a game or not.
Spiritwalker
Member
Lmao @ those shitty default photoshop filters.
Raven117
Member
Destiny 2 is in such a weird unique position for a game, that I think this review is a lot more informative than a standard review. Most reviews (like angry Joes) go through this effort of box ticking; does this feature work? Is there more content?
I think a review that centers the player and their possible relationship to a game like destiny is a smarter way to do it. Are you just casual and want to have a runthrough and some light grinding? Do you want to recreate that 1000+ hours of Destiny 1 and had some weird mixed relationship? This takes the extended metaphor out maybe a bit too far, but I think it's genuinely better and more useful than just ticking down the boxes of features.
I hope we see more stuff like this.
(Random asaide, I almost bumpbed into Stephen Totillo tranfserring trainsyesterday. I have the worst celebrity encounters
While Destiny specifically pushes its relationship with the player to the forefront, don't many other games one way or another? Especially MMO types?
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Will read this later, thanks OP.
If you have a problem with a thread, then pm a mod.
If you have a problem with a thread, then pm a mod.
Razzmatazzer
Member
Wait, why do you need a review at all then? lol
I don't think I've read a single Destiny 2 review. Preordered the game months ago and have been loving it, whether or not these outlets like it or not doesn't affect anything for me.
I don't think I would call this a "review" but as a diehard destiny day one player, it really summed up my feelings for the game. Being able to catch up with remote friends and pop open alien brains every evening after work helped me through a rough social patch just like one of Kirk's characters here.
Destiny is such a unique social experience that's had a pretty big impact on my personal life in a strange way. A guy that I went to college with joined my Destiny clan about a year ago and we've grown so close to each other that he's asked me to be in his wedding next year.
Destiny is such a unique social experience that's had a pretty big impact on my personal life in a strange way. A guy that I went to college with joined my Destiny clan about a year ago and we've grown so close to each other that he's asked me to be in his wedding next year.
Complicated
Banned
Considering people already read reviews less and less this seems like the wrong direction to go in. Write a review that informs people efficiently and says what you want to say as a critic then produce a video where people tell their stories about the game or whatever. Or do a separate article or series chronicling their experiences over time.
Sometimes I like to see if other people have the same criticisms of a game's system or story or features as I do, or if I'm blowing something out of proportion when I complain about it...
Although...
Sometimes I just like to validate my purchases based on other, more influential, people liking them... 😳
Revolutionary
Member
The Angry Joe D2 review thread is the same. It's literally just a link to his video and the score in spoiler tags.
Personally, I think all reviews should go in the review thread, but I'm not a mod so.. whatever I guess.
What else did you learn though? And how long did it take you to learn it? If you can effectively summarize the additional information in a couple sentences, what does that say about the value of the approach?
Conkerkid11
Member
Skimmed through and I guess it was interesting. Only really looks like he criticized the game in the afterthoughts, and even then, it didn't get the criticism it deserved. It improves in some areas from the first game, but the endgame is still shit, and even having delayed reviews and whatnot for future content like the raid to come out, reviewers still need to acknowledge that the endgame is trash.
Funny thing is that a solid first post with quotes and whatnot for Angry Joe review threads would probably make the thread better. Right now, those threads are just arguing over the score he gave it. We can't do that in this thread, because Kotaku doesn't give scores.
Reviews and fictional books should probably not be compared like that... A review should be concise. People don't typically read reviews to be entertained. They read them to try and determine whether or not they should buy something.
I saw the huge wall of text. Started reading but I didn't care for these unknowns interactions, so I lost interest. From the few paragraphs I read, it sure didn't seem like a review, but it maybe goes into that further on. I'm sure I'm not the only reader that lost interest though.
Enough back seat modding and meta discussion, please keep the thread on topic. Which is the Kotaku review, which, if you want to comment on, you should read.
If you want to talk about Angry Joe go talk about him in that thread.
Neither the Destiny OT nor the review round up threads are intended to capture 100% of everything related to them. New news gets new threads, and giant, gonzo reviews from Kotaku that break the mold and warrant a stand alone discussion strikes me as a good enough reason to have a thread. The mod team will make those decisions on case by case basis an we don't need to derail the thread any further.
I'll check out the review tonight, their reporting on Destiny over the past three years has been a hoot.
If you want to talk about Angry Joe go talk about him in that thread.
Neither the Destiny OT nor the review round up threads are intended to capture 100% of everything related to them. New news gets new threads, and giant, gonzo reviews from Kotaku that break the mold and warrant a stand alone discussion strikes me as a good enough reason to have a thread. The mod team will make those decisions on case by case basis an we don't need to derail the thread any further.
I'll check out the review tonight, their reporting on Destiny over the past three years has been a hoot.
I like the idea, but the problem is that the short story has no hook other than being about Destiny. So if you're not already emotionally invested in Destiny, there's nothing immediately interesting about the story and it's just a lot of verbiage burying the basic information you want like "what is this game like" and "is it good".
Finale Fireworker
Member
Just finished reading the whole thing. It reminds me a lot of how people used to talk about World of Warcraft and stuff... they describe a stimulus from so many different angles that it paints a picture of a player, or group of players, who are so deeply entrenched and obsessed with the content that it shapes and defines their entire day-to-day lives. It sounds like the game stops being media and becomes a lifestyle. It sounds like the bleary-eyed soothsaying of an addict above all else.
This kind of incredible passion makes me never, ever want to play the game they're talking about.
And I don't say this to drag people who are invested in things at this level. But this kind of hyper-aggressive association, which knows no end, is a red flag that I probably don't want to be part of it. For two reasons:
1) The skill divide is so daunting that it doesn't even feel worth it to casually try a game that other people take so seriously and to such pseudo-professional lengths. Obviously everybody starts somewhere, this was also true for WoW. But games like this put "real" players and "casual" players on such opposite ends of the scale that it feels like one must eventually tip and catapult the others into oblivion by sheer force of presence.
2) Sometimes people love something so much that I just want to give them the space to enjoy it without getting involved. There is nothing I like or want to participate in to the extent these players play Destiny. There is no video game I want to play every single day, schedule my life around, and throw myself so far into that I only take breaks for an obligatory dose of reality. I would prefer not ask for a sip of their elixir and let them have to themselves. I don't think I have the mettle.
I know this sounds negative. Even as I reread it to myself and try to adjust my tone I know it's going to sound extremely critical of hyper-enthusiastic fans. But I really don't mean it that way. What I mean to say is that I don't have it in me to play something like this.
Sometimes, another player has more than enough love for both of us. I would rather stay on the outside.
Even reading this entire story was abrasive because... I don't already care about Destiny. It's not badly written and it's interesting at times, but this is something for Destiny fans that don't know how to talk to non-Destiny fans. Which, to be fair, he admitted in his review.
It was a lot like reading Ready Player One. I'm not really expressing this well, but I'm mobile and struggling to word this how I want to. Hopefully what I'm trying to say is clear.
Edit: But separately, kudos to Kotaku for publishing something so creative in place of a regular review.
This kind of incredible passion makes me never, ever want to play the game they're talking about.
And I don't say this to drag people who are invested in things at this level. But this kind of hyper-aggressive association, which knows no end, is a red flag that I probably don't want to be part of it. For two reasons:
1) The skill divide is so daunting that it doesn't even feel worth it to casually try a game that other people take so seriously and to such pseudo-professional lengths. Obviously everybody starts somewhere, this was also true for WoW. But games like this put "real" players and "casual" players on such opposite ends of the scale that it feels like one must eventually tip and catapult the others into oblivion by sheer force of presence.
2) Sometimes people love something so much that I just want to give them the space to enjoy it without getting involved. There is nothing I like or want to participate in to the extent these players play Destiny. There is no video game I want to play every single day, schedule my life around, and throw myself so far into that I only take breaks for an obligatory dose of reality. I would prefer not ask for a sip of their elixir and let them have to themselves. I don't think I have the mettle.
I know this sounds negative. Even as I reread it to myself and try to adjust my tone I know it's going to sound extremely critical of hyper-enthusiastic fans. But I really don't mean it that way. What I mean to say is that I don't have it in me to play something like this.
Sometimes, another player has more than enough love for both of us. I would rather stay on the outside.
Even reading this entire story was abrasive because... I don't already care about Destiny. It's not badly written and it's interesting at times, but this is something for Destiny fans that don't know how to talk to non-Destiny fans. Which, to be fair, he admitted in his review.
It was a lot like reading Ready Player One. I'm not really expressing this well, but I'm mobile and struggling to word this how I want to. Hopefully what I'm trying to say is clear.
Edit: But separately, kudos to Kotaku for publishing something so creative in place of a regular review.
Savantcore
Unconfirmed Member
Good shit. Reminds me of 'Bow, nigger'.
Kotaku's mandate is that reviews should inform, entertain, and help improve our understanding of how video games make us feel. If you just want to know whether the graphics are good, there are plenty of other websites out there.
Triggerhappytel
Member
Really. Is there any need for this?!
ScaryShark
Banned
Reviews can be whatever the author wants them to be and however long they want them to be. I absolutely read criticism more for entertainment than purchasing help.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
Reviews can be more than just a list of bullet points. That's why Kotaku abandoned scoring systems in the first place.
I like how Mr. Hamilton pays attention to the experience of playing a game like Destiny 2, with incidental banter, and little stage setting details. But I found the stories to be too long for useful anecdotes.
Worse, because this is framed in a review, I then read the dialogue not as conversation, but to gather the author's meaning. Thus, the stories stop being read as character studies or experiential fiction, and become exposition dumps.
Which left me cold, so I skipped through the rest.
Interesting approach, but ultimately hampered by framing itself as a review imo. Would be curious to see this sort of thing as a 'Dispatches from...' series though - where the focus is on character and experience, not having to hit all the points of criticism. This just never quite felt natural to me.
Rock Paper Shotgun has done some good things in this space, and also do -actually conversational- 'wot I think' reviews,which I find far more interesting than the regular style of review
Worse, because this is framed in a review, I then read the dialogue not as conversation, but to gather the author's meaning. Thus, the stories stop being read as character studies or experiential fiction, and become exposition dumps.
Which left me cold, so I skipped through the rest.
Interesting approach, but ultimately hampered by framing itself as a review imo. Would be curious to see this sort of thing as a 'Dispatches from...' series though - where the focus is on character and experience, not having to hit all the points of criticism. This just never quite felt natural to me.
Rock Paper Shotgun has done some good things in this space, and also do -actually conversational- 'wot I think' reviews,which I find far more interesting than the regular style of review
Mossybrew
Member
Nice post, I can sympathize with your viewpoint. The interactions described in the review definitely represent one way of playing the game, and I agree I want no part of that scene. However its entirely possible to get many hours of enjoyment out of Destiny playing solo, grouping with randoms from time to time who are blissfully silent, and engaging at a much more casual pace.
All laudable goals to be sure, but I don't know that the review in question did an adequate job of performing all those tasks in a manner that would maintain the interest of the typical Kotaku reader (I consider myself a typical Kotaku reader, but who knows, perhaps I'm not).
It certainly did not have a hook that kept me reading, thus I was not informed (as to your site's thoughts on Destiny 2) or entertained sufficiently to keep reading, and as a result did not improve my understanding of how Destiny 2 made anyone feel.
Perhaps if the review were reformatted to put the long winding narrative at the back end of the article?
Is it really necessary as the lead in to the review? Will the praises or criticisms of Destiny 2 made in the review be rendered incomprehensible without the lengthy narrative?
Edit: I've now spent more time reading and writing in this review thread than I actually spent attempting to read the review... narrative...thing.😐
As someone who is a Destiny fan, I also lost interest pretty quick. It's not good.
Reading this reminds me of exactly why I don't think Destiny is a good game, or more importantly, a game worth people's time. I'm all for changing up the way reviews are done, but this doesn't seem to serve anyone other than the hardcore that don't need to see reviews before they buy it.
electricpirate
Member
I agree with all of this! I think more reviews need to approach games in this way. Given the volume of software that comes through, I'd almost prefer if reviews existed not to rate every game up or down, but if they worked to highlight the right games for the right people, and bad/boring stuff just didn't get reviewed.
I think Destiny is just weird in that it can connect so deeply with kind of disparate communities really deeply, and in some ways they are kind of loosely connected through "THE DESTINY COMMUNITY" And in that way, a discussion of how the game might connect with those different parts of the community and how it might connect to potentially interested communities makes this format somewhat more useful.
If my goal was to simply abstract stipped out information like "Should I buy this" I don't think this review would be useful. I don't think that's a good format for a review though, as I like something that's more like criticism and is interesting to read on it's own.
Jonneh3003
Banned
Why does Kotaku get his own thread?
Mr.Fletcher
Member
It's an interesting idea and one that could be trimmed and restructured to deliver something unique and informative in the future.
But as it is, it's just not engaging if you ask me. It doesn't hit readers in the face and demand their attention. It's a never-ending 'drop-intro' that I imagine will fail to get many from point A to B.
More conversational reviews, ones expressing the 'experience' the reviewer had playing the game is a nice idea, but this effort is far too self-indulgent.
I'd also agree with an earlier poster who said it suffers for being framed as a review. I'd always encourage experimentation but you've also got to respect the reader's time too.
For me, it should have opened up saying Destiny 2 has finally released, this is the good, this is the bad, but let me share my experience of traipsing through the galaxy - weaving in their critiques throughout.
Front-load the informative stuff and then draw people in with a more personal perspective. This review, with three or four pars of more useful information at the top, would have flowed much better...
... I'd still argue it's too much though.
But as it is, it's just not engaging if you ask me. It doesn't hit readers in the face and demand their attention. It's a never-ending 'drop-intro' that I imagine will fail to get many from point A to B.
More conversational reviews, ones expressing the 'experience' the reviewer had playing the game is a nice idea, but this effort is far too self-indulgent.
I'd also agree with an earlier poster who said it suffers for being framed as a review. I'd always encourage experimentation but you've also got to respect the reader's time too.
For me, it should have opened up saying Destiny 2 has finally released, this is the good, this is the bad, but let me share my experience of traipsing through the galaxy - weaving in their critiques throughout.
Front-load the informative stuff and then draw people in with a more personal perspective. This review, with three or four pars of more useful information at the top, would have flowed much better...
... I'd still argue it's too much though.
Dio Brando
Banned
Primethius
Banned
I had read bits and pieces of this earlier when it popped up in my RSS feed.
I don't think it's good. The writing nor the style in which it is written. And particularly as a review. I find it far more fascinating as an insight into what essentially comes across as addiction within gaming.
I don't think it's good. The writing nor the style in which it is written. And particularly as a review. I find it far more fascinating as an insight into what essentially comes across as addiction within gaming.
It's masturbatory and overlong.
The worst game reviews are a celebration of the author and not the title being critiqued.
paragonpro
Banned
Agreed i think there are far too many reviewers, not just in games who let there pretention and ego's get in the way of their content. Its like personality based writing. However ive not read this yet, as someone who appreciatesand was a part of the community that built up around the first game, im very curious to give this a read.
Interficium
Banned
new games journalism coming back in a big way, baby!
Indeed. I agree, I want something more. But I also want something that more directly engages with the art, rather than focusing on how the art might impact a collection of fictional characters.
For a good example, take John Walker's review of the first few hours of Mass Effect: Andromeda. It's an unrelenting, direct engagement with the writing, characters, and game on offer. With every claim, he provides excellent examples:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/03/14/mass-effect-andromeda-review-opening-hours/
Contrast Walker with Hamilton's review of Destiny 2. The writing of Destiny 2 is practically treated as an epiphenomenon. It's there, and some of his characters stumble through trying to explain it, and they have varying levels of care about it, but so what? Engage with it! Speak the truth about its value. Don't just decide it doesn't matter because there's always another gun to get.
Raven117
Member
Yes and know. Its almost like you need (i)"here is a review for someone who knows nothing about the genre" and (ii) here is a review for folks who really understand the genre.
Destiny is unique in that its an MMO-lite that brought MMO(ish) type game design to the (dare I say) casual audience of your average FPS player and or Single Player RPG guy. (This is me). Couple that with the Bungie pedigree, and you have a different type of social game that is not just for the more hardcore MMO types.
In other words, (and I say this with love), Bros are now playing MMO's because of Destiny. And like it or not, there has not been another developer that has been able to quite capture it.
Ubisoft tried The Division. And while a good game in its own right, it failed on the end MMO type grind (and it just wasnt as satisfying to play (ie Gunplay).
Diablo 3, is a looter (and of course predates Destiny), but doesn't require such team coordination that Destiny (or other more advance MMOs) need. Its just looter.
EA will get its shot with Bioware's Anthem. Looks cool, but in the end...it has got to be simply fun to shoot bad guys. Bioware hasn't been the kings of gameplay (as Bungie preeety much perfected the FPS on console), but time will tell.
Anyway, yes, Destiny is indeed a specific game that brought MMO-lite to the masses.