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What it means to be "white" in the US. We need a honest open discussion. I'll start.

For a 22 minute video, it was powerful.

Two parts really hit me.

When she said white people can live their entire lives and not have an authentic relationship with a person of color and other white people would never say it would be a loss (of a learning experience). Because the idea of finding value in the experience of people other than white makes no sense.

Instantly the first thing I think of is the reactions to Kaepernick's protest last season and reactions when BLM brought up their grievances to various events involving the democratic party and platform.

Number 2

When she said the one black person in one of her focus group called "revolutionary" if he would be able to comment on a white colleague's action (whatever it is) of racism (unintentional or not), have them receive it with grace and for them to make a conscious and genuine effort to correct it.

ALL OF THE YES!!!!!!!

If I could do this and not get white people so defensive, it would be one less thing I have to worry about day-to-day. You aren't bad, just make a better choice next time. Acknowledgement of offensive behavior is one of the best things you can do. So you know and won't do it again. And just saying that you are sorry or apologize for it goes a long way. And not that "Sorry if I offended you" BS. You did so stop making a pointless comment.

Seems she has another video on white fragility. Gonna watch that next.
 
Great video. Very plain and clear language to get across some great points. I consider myself pretty informed on race issues, but the idea of the good/bad binary and the health issues of POC relating to being part of a racist system were both eye-opening to me.

As a Christian, I'm really shocked and pleased to see a video like this coming from the church.
 

Kevyt

Member
That was a great watch. Thanks OP for sharing! I went ahead and watched the other video that was suggested which is a bit longer but she kind of covers the same points. Amazing stuff! The bit about being racially represented in the media at childhood was powerful and scary...
 

Gaz_RB

Member
While I was watching this video, youtube had another video recommended on the right from the Blaze called "White Privilege Isn't Real".

Watched it after Robin's video and it literally stepped into almost every thing she warned against--strawmen as far as the eye can see. That video had like 100k views and Robin's has like sub 10k.

Fucking infuriating... and it's part of a series called "That's Not Racist" which seems to just be this obnoxious white dude complaining that white people have it just as hard. I hate how easy it is now to just lock yourself in a racist bubble with nothing but misleading "facts" and your own confirmation bias.
 

creatchee

Member
One of my biggest "AHA!" moments was the new racism binary of good and bad as it pertains how we picture or categorize the "typical racist".

IMG_3366.png


The ideas and values that white people are shaped by make it too easy to internally and externally separate themselves from what we perceive are the "real" bad guys. Because of this, a great many of us simply refuse to admit that we either are racist, have racist tendencies, or, at the very least, accept the fact that we benefit from racism from the day we're born until the day we die, as our parents have and as our children will. Simply put - we don't identify with the bad side of things, and we don't perceive any reward for simply being born, so of course everything is fine with us and it's only the "real" racists who make the world a problem for people of color. Following that path, you end up at a place where we may either become indignant when confronted even in the simplest and gentlest of ways, or in full-on antagonist mode because we need to put down arguments before they are spoken to maintain our personal sense of well being (hello, white fragility).

Awesome video. I hope many watch it and at least pause to think about it.
 
Good video. Many of her points ring true when it comes to the age old discussion in the Netherlands about Black Pete. The defensiveness of proponents of the tradition is recogniseable. People don’t like being told they have been wrong about something their entire life.
 

ZanDatsu

Member
I'm interested in knowing what kinds of things white people do that they would then become defensive of when it was pointed out to them. Does it happen so often that people of color notice it all the time?
 
Finally finished the video. I love that she brought up the idea of "universalism" aka "We're all the same/we all bleed red" and its use in faith communities. I actually went to my parent's baptist church this week and that exact line was used. Minorities in the audience were told to stop thinking about and playing into "identity politics" and focus on how "we're all the same in the eyes of God",etc. (despite this being said in the context of recent events like Charlotttesville, the preacher had nothing to say for the white people in the audience who might hold racist ideals). This denies reality and the existence of long lasting power structures made and operated in a way that disenfranchises.

I'm interested in knowing what kinds of things white people do that they would then become defensive of when it was pointed out to them. Does it happen so often that people of color notice it all the time?

White people don't necessarily have to have done anything to become defensive. Sure sometimes someone who becomes defensive has told harmful, racist jokes and doesn't want to be called out, sometimes they've used bigoted slurs, sometimes they've bullied or insulted others at some point because of the color of their skin, sometimes they let their racist relatives slide without confronting them, sometimes they tell you you're "one of the good ones" or "you're not like other black people/you act white", sometimes they say aloud "well you're Asian. You must be smart." Or "you're black. You must be sporty/play ball", etc. (Yes people of color know of the many things white people do in secret or unaware that they think is not fucked up or racist but actually is)

The actual insidious part is that white people get defensive, not because they've explicitly done anything, but because they already have a picture of what it means to be a racist in their minds. A racist in their minds is an actively bad and evil person who burns crosses, beats/kills people of color and is overall stupid and villainous. Because they have this ingrained & very narrow and cartoonish image of what it means to be racist, they get defensive and try to resist the label with all their strength.

The actual truth is that racism, as it exists today, is so much more than white hoods and racial slurs. It's systems and mindsets of white supremacy that people are born into and don't even have to do much to contribute to and perpetuate. It's implicit biases and subconscious choices that continually enforce racism without much effort. It's something that you will inevitably do as a white person, not through any fault of your own but because of the way society is set up. The way it has taught and reinforced lessons that you took to heart. Just like you don't have to beat women or be a rapist to be a misogynist and participate in behavior that is anti-women, you don't have to be a KKK grand wizard or enjoy lynching to display racism. It's not a label that's supposed to be a moral judgment call. It's not a death sentence. It's simply something you've fed into and need to learn from. But sadly for a lot (a majority ) of white people, to be racist is to be bad, vicious or evil; thus defensiveness.
 

FranF

Banned
"Whiteness" "Blackness" "PoC" - they aren't ethnicities, they're castes. IMO this word is the key to understanding everything
 

Future

Member
This is one of the best breakdowns of the issue that I’ve ever seen. In particular, white people not seeing value in in perspectives drawn from diversity is the key to every problem out there. For some white families, it would be a perfect life to simply live, go to school, have a job, and die with only ever seeing white people. There is no perceived inherent value in the perspectives of anyone different, and worse, can sometimes be perceived as negative to have those perspectives.

It’s why arguments against affirmative action pain me. It’s not about letting minorities into school to screw white people. It’s recognizing that it’s to the benefit of everyone to have a school experiences that has the persepective from people of all colors and walks of life. School is more about books and equations but a social experience as well. An experience improved by broad perspective
 
One of my biggest "AHA!" moments was the new racism binary of good and bad as it pertains how we picture or categorize the "typical racist".

IMG_3366.png

Which is why you constantly have people on this very forum that continue saying things like, "I can't wait for the old racists to die out".
 

Flo_Evans

Member
I've said it before, and I will say it again (and she even mentions it in the video). The institutional barriers which create de facto segregation of residential neighborhoods, school districts, and places of business are the actual underpinning of systemic racism (i.e., the most significantly weighted factor enabling and perpetuating racism within society).

Until proposed legislation actually passes and reverses the mechanisms of segregation, they will continue to have the largest impact on perpetuating a second class citizenship status for people of color.

People of color and white people need to live in the same neighborhoods with one another on the same footing, they need to attend the same schools, and work amongst each other. That level of proximity is necessary for the worst of racism to be beat back. And it is necessary for everyone, including white people, to live a richer, better life.

This physical segregation is also the biggest enabler of law enforcement practices that unfairly target people of color. By creating segregated neighborhoods by race, it makes it that much easier for law enforcement to target that entire group of POC easily and incessantly, isolating any scenes which are made out of sight and out of mind for white people.

I think you are correct but I don't really see a good solution to this. White people tend to move away if a neighborhood becomes too diverse.

Documentary on white flight - Spanish Lake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFZjtTbx16U (trailer, full doc is on netflix. or up next in autoplay is a bootleg version lol)
 

Barzul

Member
yea this is what really got me because my wife and I are looking at neighborhoods, schools and houses for when we will be in the market. We use apps and websites to find the best, safest places. That probably means all white/ vast majority white schools and neighborhoods though. So this is tough...

I'm black and this also affects me. When looking at cities where I want to settle, I'm constantly searching for the balance in demographics. Because that balance means there's likely more minority officers in the police force for example, more minority teachers that won't ignore any children I might have due to implicit biases, minority school administrators etc.

The segregation aspect she brought up is very poignant. I don't have that many adult friendships, but of those very few are white. Self-segregation really is in the fabric of this country.

Edit: And what she said about pointing out to white people moments of inadvertent bias......that shit truly would be revolutionary. I can't even fathom doing it now, because no one wants to be made out as a racist.
 
14:30 is probably the biggest thing for someone to take in and process. I’m not white so I can’t really say much but I can’t imagine that being easy to let set in your mind and stomach.

This was the biggest takeaway for me as well. I have never thought about my privilege like that and it's incredibly sad to realize it.
 

Lois_Lane

Member
I'm interested in knowing what kinds of things white people do that they would then become defensive of when it was pointed out to them. Does it happen so often that people of color notice it all the time?

Asking to touch our hair or touching it anyway without permission.

Go to any black forum and you will see at least one thread on white people's inability to keep their hands to themselves when it comes to black people but somehow regaining that control when it's any other race.
 

snacknuts

we all knew her
Thank you very much for sharing, OP.

I grew up in a fairly rural area about 20 minutes outside of Indianapolis. I went to a small school (<100 people in my graduating class) and there was exactly one black student in the entire high school. When I was a senior, there was a freshman who was half-Korean. Everyone else was white.

The only time I was ever really exposed to POC was when we would go into the city for shopping or whatever. My middle and high school years were all in the 90s and malls were still popular, so I feel like that is where I got the most exposure. I honestly don't remember feeling anything one way or the other when around POC, but there was definitely a sense of them being 'the other'. I don't remember speaking with POC of any of these outings, but I didn't actively avoid them either.

I didn't have any sort of relationship with any POC until I entered the work force in high school and bounced around between a couple jobs in Indy. Pretty much everywhere I worked was on E. Washington St, an area that has a not-insignificant population of non-whites. I bussed tables at a Bob Evans. I worked at an arcade/miniature golf place. I worked at Best Buy. I worked at Blockbuster video. I had black co-workers and customers. My co-workers were funny and smart and interesting and, I suppose, seemed kind of exotic to a white kid from farm country who had only ever spent time around other white kids from farm country. We were friendly with each other, but never really became friends. We didn't get together outside of work.

I don't remember hearing people in my home community speaking ill of POC, but there's no way it didn't happen. It makes me feel terrible that it surely happened and didn't stick with me. It was normal and not noteworthy.

After high school, I moved to Bloomington, IN (home of Indiana Univ.) for a year. I was exposed to even more diversity there among fellow students and co-workers. This is when I began to really pay more attention to white people being shitty to non-whites. While I was living in Bloomington, a Korean student named Won-Joon Yoon was gunned down by a white supremacist in front of his church. It happened just a couple blocks from where I worked at the time. There were prayer vigils and a deep sense of loss (and shame, I think) in the student community, but I knew that not everyone thought it was a tragedy. I had never been so close to something like that, and I couldn't understand why someone would do that just because of a person's race. All of the POC I had met were nice and friendly and pleasant at the same ratio as the white people I had met in life. It didn't make sense to me.

Fast forward about ten years and I moved to eastern Tennessee. It was a beautiful part of the country, but seemed to represent every negative stereotype you've ever heard about the south. People were mostly nice to you... if you were white and straight. People were openly racist. My wife (fiancée at the time) worked at a mortgage brokerage and stormed out of her office one afternoon after her boss thanked a blank applicant for stopping by, and then loudly proclaimed that he wasn't going to hire any "goddamn niggers" to work for him. She quit. I had a neighbor stop by a garage sale we were having and complain that it was not okay to call black folks monkeys anymore. He was old and I didn't bother trying to correct him, but I abruptly ended the conversation. An older guy who worked for me complained about black people feeling comfortable enough to "just walk down the street in broad daylight, like it's nothin'." I reported it to HR and nothing happened. After a year of that bullshit, a year of growing more and more to assume the worst in people, we moved back to Indianapolis.

Despite the above, I had still always lived in places that were overwhelmingly and predominantly white. That changed about five years ago when we moved to a neighborhood where white families were in the minority (available data for my ZIP code states that the area is 49% black and 42% white). It has been a really wonderful experience. We are just a couple minutes away from the International Market corridor of W 38th St, which has all kinds of international groceries, ethnic restaurants, etc. But we still don't have any relationships with our new, diverse neighbors that are closer than stopping to talk to each other in the yard. I attribute that more to my social anxiety issues at this point than I do to racism, as we haven't made relationships closer than that with any of our white neighbors, either, but maybe I'm wrong. Since moving to this area, I have gotten a lot more interested in (and angrier about) the issue of systemic racism in America. But I admittedly haven't actually done anything about it, probably for a few reasons.

  1. I am honestly not sure what I can do.
  2. I don't know how to bring this stuff up with other people, white or otherwise, outside of Facebook posts that no one pays attention to.
  3. If I'm being honest with myself, it's easy to be complacent about this stuff when you're white. I tried reaching out a few times to my local congressman to try to have talks about this stuff, but I've only ever heard back from their assistant.
So, I guess I'd be happy to get advice on what else I can do to help change things. Being woke is not enough.
 
  1. I am honestly not sure what I can do.
  2. I don't know how to bring this stuff up with other people, white or otherwise, outside of Facebook posts that no one pays attention to.
  3. If I'm being honest with myself, it's easy to be complacent about this stuff when you're white. I tried reaching out a few times to my local congressman to try to have talks about this stuff, but I've only ever heard back from their assistant.
So, I guess I'd be happy to get advice on what else I can do to help change things. Being woke is not enough.

Thank you for sharing your story, snack!

To start with if there's one thing needed in the movement it's sincere white allyship. People like the GOP, diet racists, they love to pigeonhole black people as having a perpetual chip on their shoulder. They see things like BLM or recent events of activism like Kaepernick's kneeling, they see one or an assembly of black Americans and write them off easily. "Oh it's just black people being black people. Complaining for no reason." That becomes more difficult in cases like in Charlottesville recently where the grouping of protesters on the side of progress was highly diverse and more importantly in the eyes of racists, full of white people. If you care, of course, there are a multitude of areas that need financial support but even more than that your presence in these conversations, actually inside these activist groups that protest, that assemble, that campaign is valuable. In this topic I created a while ago, you'll find multiple options for getting politically involved, not just by yourself but with local communities and civil rights groups (not even just race wise but for the advancement of women, minority genders and sexualities as well as the non able-bodied. You may feel discouraged by only getting you local politicians answering machine, but when you're working with a group, one that's laser-focused on political change you become much harder to ignore.

As for bringing it up on social media and even in face-to-face conversation, an important thing to know is that someone is always listening even if they don't post. Public defense of civil rights and of PoC is vitally important, even if you think you're talking to a wall. Sometimes another white person is seeing you fight and is taking your words to heart. Sometimes PoC are definitely taking note of the fact that they have a stalwart ally in you when they see these conversations even if they don't mention it. You don't always have to be thumping your copy of The New Jim Crow but when you notice a fellow white person acting or saying something racist, address it right then and there.

And speaking of The New Jim Crow, listen and read about the voices your life path has denied you and share them with your white friends and family:

The New Jim Crow
Medical Apartheid
I Am Not Your Negro
The Fire Next Time
Between The World and Me
Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria
The Color Of Law
How to Kill a City
Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome
Where Do We Go From Here
The Trumpet Of Conscience
Racism Without Racists
Slavery By Another Name
King Leopold's Ghost
White Rage
White By Law
Latinos Facing Racism
Harvest of Empire
An American Genocide
We Too Sing America
But I Don't See You As Asian
The Color of Success: Asian Americans and the Origins of the Model Minority
News For All The People
How Did You Get To Be Mexican

There are a literal tonne of books about the minority experience, about the day to day life of people under oppression, about racism, its origins and how to fight back against it, about the extent to which its tendrils invade even innocuous parts of life. If more white people, hell if more straight people, more men, and more cisgendered people, could read with an open mind and heart and take in these experiences right from the mouths of people of color (of women & of LGBTQ+ peoples) like was said in the video, it would be a revolution. This is arming yourself for those conversations you mentioned. These are the statistics, speeches, and experiences that can cut through racism and bigoty like a hot knife. It's the reality vs. the manipulation and lies. Too many people who call themselves progressive are satisfied reading To Kill A Mockingbird and deciding they know everything there is to know about racism.
 
This video is great and as a minority I am tired of explaining things to white people. Sometimes white people are just more receptive when they hear things come from their own. I am glad this video is out and it should go viral.
I'm interested in knowing what kinds of things white people do that they would then become defensive of when it was pointed out to them. Does it happen so often that people of color notice it all the time?
All the time. A guaranteed example would be when a white person says something racially insensitive or racist, without malice. When you try to point out why what they said was wrong, they will react as if you accused them of being Klansmen. Expect eyerolls, your point being ignored, and the person making the conversation about them being offended that someone "thinks they are racist" and not about the racist crap they just said. Its knee-jerk manipulative behavior.

Another example is when some white people are proud of their liberal cities (which are segregated as hell!). Whenever institutional racism in these cities is brought up, some people act as if you insulted them personally. Minorities from these cities have their valid concerns ignored. "This city is so not racist so if you are down on your luck, it can't possibly be racism and could be a problem with you (or your culture or the rap music or Chicago?...)."
 

Infinite

Member
Glad this video emphasizes that racism is a system not just individual acts of prejudice that occur in a vacuum because it's annoying when people here and elsewhere trip over themselves to regurgitate dictionary definitions of the concept to suit their own rhetorical motives. First of all, using a dictionary to understand a concept, to get the upper hand in an internet debate, makes yourself look silly. Secondly, and as the video points, it's more convenient to close your ears and just think of racism as Klansman yelling slurs back and forth at minorities and not a system you yourself are complicit in.
 

L Thammy

Member
When I talk with other white people about race, I often am left with the impression that they resent POC and are jealous of the concept of having a racial identity where they can take pride in. In other words, they may say they wish no one talked about race but in reality, what they really want is a way to posotively self-actualize as something greater than themselves, which would also explain the over the top reaction to the flag protests, at least in part.

I often wonder what if anything could be done to accommodate this. I really feel like this existential crisis plays a larger role in a lot of the problems we face than many realize. I cant think of a solution though given how easily any effort would almost inevitably lead to aiding white nationalism.

Those are specific ethnicities though, most white people in America do not have recent European ancestry and are mutts and there is a general taboo of tying specific ethnic pride to racial identity. Moreover there is definitely movement recently against Colombus Day, although I support that.

I'm a little confused by this. So my understanding is:


1. "White" is an identity created by European colonialists to describe themselves and justify colonialism.

2. White Americans are primarily of British descent, although you've also got a lot of Germanic people who have long been absorbed into the greater identity.

3. Whites of British descent have generaly dropped off the "British" or "English" in favour of "American" because that's how they preferred to view themselves long ago.

4. America itself has an extremely powerful sense of identity; I've heard it referred to as the country's chief export.


I'm neither white nor American so I don't mean to assert anything that I haven't experienced, but that's the situation as I understood it. I'm similarly confused when you hear about Southern pride, because it seems weird for Southerners to need a strong sense of identity when they've already got American identity to claim.
 

Ivan 3414

Member
I don't think the mindset needs to be understood by poc, we already know how it is.

There are plenty of PoC who grew up in minority communities and don't regularly interact with white people enough to understand their perspective on race. There's also PoC who cape for the racial status quo and white fragility. The roots of systematic racism in America aren't immediately tangible, even for minorities who've been socialized to understand that their color isn't valued in society. Better understanding across the board is what will lead us to solutions, and I don't see the needle moving on racial progress if we assume that all PoC just "get" what it means to be white, simply because they've been subjugated by white supremacy.
 
I'm interested in knowing what kinds of things white people do that they would then become defensive of when it was pointed out to them. Does it happen so often that people of color notice it all the time?

Quite often actually. To the point where you could guess every response with near 100% accuracy
 

nel e nel

Member
What does it mean to decouple that? Like federal funds instead

It means rich places get better schools and poor places get worse since it’s all based on house values.


It means decouple... don’t have money received be based on house value.

I was thinking more like spreading those funds evenly across all schools.

Oh, okay. I didn't realize that was set up that way, never owned a house

You don't need to be a homeowner to learn how schools get funded.
 
There are plenty of PoC who grew up in minority communities and don't regularly interact with white people enough to understand their perspective on race. There's also PoC who cape for the racial status quo and white fragility. The roots of systematic racism in America aren't immediately tangible, even for minorities who've been socialized to understand that their color isn't valued in society. Better understanding across the board is what will lead us to solutions, and I don't see the needle moving on racial progress if we assume that all PoC just "get" what it means to be white, simply because they've been subjugated by white supremacy.

No you're absolutely right about that. Mistake on my part.
 

Nista

Member
I don't count the first two holidays mentioned. You can be any race and enjoy Beer.

True, but if you look at the general racial makeup of people attending one of those events, the older folks are primarily white. The younger people are pretty representative of the overall community, at least in SoCal.

Beer should bring us together.
 

Mael

Member
"Whiteness" "Blackness" "PoC" - they aren't ethnicities, they're castes. IMO this word is the key to understanding everything

That's probably the most accurate thing I've read on Gaf in a while.
It's actually just like that.
It ain't a system of class as that would imply some kind of mobility and a separation based on what actors are doing.
It's literally a system of caste.
 

ajb1888

Banned
One of my biggest "AHA!" moments was the new racism binary of good and bad as it pertains how we picture or categorize the "typical racist".

IMG_3366.png


The ideas and values that white people are shaped by make it too easy to internally and externally separate themselves from what we perceive are the "real" bad guys. Because of this, a great many of us simply refuse to admit that we either are racist, have racist tendencies, or, at the very least, accept the fact that we benefit from racism from the day we're born until the day we die, as our parents have and as our children will. Simply put - we don't identify with the bad side of things, and we don't perceive any reward for simply being born, so of course everything is fine with us and it's only the "real" racists who make the world a problem for people of color. Following that path, you end up at a place where we may either become indignant when confronted even in the simplest and gentlest of ways, or in full-on antagonist mode because we need to put down arguments before they are spoken to maintain our personal sense of well being (hello, white fragility).

Awesome video. I hope many watch it and at least pause to think about it.

That was a very eye-opening slide for me as well. The presentation really breaks it down better than I could ever have.
 
14:30 is probably the biggest thing for someone to take in and process. I’m not white so I can’t really say much but I can’t imagine that being easy to let set in your mind and stomach.

I watched the video and this definitely stuck with me, though not because it resonated. Quite the opposite. Because it felt "off." And I finally think I figured out why. There's a subtle disconnect between stating the idea that there isn't a "loss" if you don't interact with POC on a consistent basis and stating that POC's perspective don't have any inherent value. The former does not necessarily imply the latter.

To use a more concrete example, let's say I'm playing a silly version of Three-card Monte. But rather than being rigged so that I lose, the rules are simple: I put down a dollar and if, once the cards are shuffled around, I don't pick the queen, I win $2 back. Now let's say I follow along diligently and I know for a fact that the left card will win me a dollar. But in the process of pointing at it, I slip and accidentally touch the middle card. However, it's my lucky day, and that's a winner too. So, my unfortunate slip didn't result in any "loss" for me. But at the same time, my original choice still had value. Namely, a dollar. In other words, my actions didn't result in any opportunity cost.

In the same way, it's not necessarily the case that a lack of sense of loss at not interacting with POC means you think the perspectives of POC have no value. It could be that you just don't think they have additional value. To look at it another way, if I never had a deep relationship with someone from Maine, I don't think I'd feel a particular sense of "loss." But that doesn't mean I think people from Maine hold no value.

Now, I do think that you could argue that there's additional value in being exposed to different viewpoints and hearing different perspectives. But that divorces the point from race. Then it's just saying that it's beneficial to get out of your echo chamber and consider alternative views. Which is not that revelatory.

The other counterargument that I could see being offered is that if you truly think that the viewpoints/perspectives of POC are more-or-less interchangeable with the views of white people, then you're falling into the trap of universalism which she also mentions in the video as supporting racism. To that I'd say...maybe? But it also strikes me as racist to assume a black person is appreciably different to, simply on the basis of his/her skin. Sounds a bit like "othering" and definitely like prejudging. So it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. And I prefer to err on the side of treating people equally. Especially before I've met them.
 
The other counterargument that I could see being offered is that if you truly think that the viewpoints/perspectives of POC are more-or-less interchangeable with the views of white people, then you're falling into the trap of universalism which she also mentions in the video as supporting racism. To that I'd say...maybe? But it also strikes me as racist to assume a black person is appreciably different to, simply on the basis of his/her skin. Sounds a bit like "othering" and definitely like prejudging. So it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. And I prefer to err on the side of treating people equally. Especially before I've met them.

A black person is not appreciably different simply because of their skin. What make a black experience different is a society that functions to disenfranchise them because of their skin. The reality is that it's not racist to assume a black person has had a different life experience than a white person because society is set up to make that the more likely result than not. It's the same with women. It's the same with being transgender. It's the same with being gay. It's the same with being disabled. Society has a status quo, one that elevates or marginalizes based on certain criteria. The entire reason you see large groups of gay people, black people, or women all assemble in search of a civil change, that's literally a giant sign post that they live different lives. That's a sign that there is an abnormality in the way they are treated by current society that differs from someone cisgendered or that differs from someone white who don't have to participate in the same fights because society is built to favor them.

Also the loss she mentions isn't simply personal. That loss is something that reverberates out. A white family that goes an entire generation without the perspective of a black person is one that perpetuates a cycle. It's one where racist ideals can breed unchallenged. It's one where the institutions like schools and churches are justified in their segregation. Churches can justify teaching those same families how homosexuality is a sin. Schools can justify marginalizing trans students. All because the status quo is maintained and the people who benefit most are comfortable in it. Society only changes when that kind of diversity is embraced on a personal level so it can spread beyond that. That's the value in actually sincerely seeking out the perspective and experiences of the marginalized. It's not only about changing an individual but changing this country.
 

Sunster

Member
I'm black and this also affects me. When looking at cities where I want to settle, I'm constantly searching for the balance in demographics. Because that balance means there's likely more minority officers in the police force for example, more minority teachers that won't ignore any children I might have due to implicit biases, minority school administrators etc.

The segregation aspect she brought up is very poignant. I don't have that many adult friendships, but of those very few are white. Self-segregation really is in the fabric of this country.

Edit: And what she said about pointing out to white people moments of inadvertent bias......that shit truly would be revolutionary. I can't even fathom doing it now, because no one wants to be made out as a racist.

I have since talked about this with my wife and we both agree that the "safest" schools and neighborhoods don't necessarily mean the best for our future family. We are not going to treat these stats given to us by apps and websites as gospel and instead just use them as a general guideline of neighborhoods that deserve an in person look-about. And for schools we have decided to do in person tours instead of relying totally on school grades. We want our future children to be safe, but we also want them to be properly socialized to Americans of all ethnicities, races, and socio economic backgrounds.

I myself went to a school that hovered around a C and D grade. I saw that students with involved parents excelled. Students without that, still excelled sometimes but more responsibility was placed on them which is tough sometimes for a kid. We plan to be involved in our children's education. So an A or B school, while preferable is not absolutely necessary.
 

mortal

Gold Member
So, I've watched the entire video, and to be perfectly honest, I don't agree with most of what she said.

It's well-intentioned, but for all of the intentions of fighting racism, some of the ideas and views put forth are arguably racist. Most likely unintentional.

First and foremost, I disagree with her "conditional" definition of racism. Racism is the discrimination of a person or demographic on the basis of their skin or ethnicity and that they're genetically inferior. Here are other clear definitions of racism that are pretty consistent with each other:

Racism
1. Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
2. A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race


Racism is not bound by systematic oppression. Racism can be reinforced by a system of government, or a religious practice, or political ideology, or any other worldview for that matter.
Both on a large scale as well as on a personal scale. It can be expressed through laws, or media, or individual expression. It can be internalized or acted out.

It's not solely the systematic oppression of a minority group within a society. I have an issue with that conditional definition, as it implies that minorities themselves somehow can't possibly harbor racist views about other ethnic groups. Even though reality has shown that to be false.

We want to fight racism, yet we continue to separate our species into arbitrary categories based on superficial traits like the shade differences in our skin pigment.
She, like many people, uses language like "white people" in contrast to "people of color." Simply by drawing that distinction with ill-defined terms, it causes pointless separation.

What the hell does the term "people of color" even mean? At the beginning of the video, she calls attention to the fact that she's white and how obvious her whiteness is. To be honest she could've been Hispanic for all I know, considering that there are actual Hispanic or Latino women that have the same shade of pigment that she has.
Hell, even women from other ethnicities share the same pigment. By doing that she automatically groups them as a sort of "other" apart from white people. Is that not a paradox? Is that not considered a form of self-segregation that she speaks about?

Personally, I've never understood the point of the categorizations we use, as they're terribly inconsistent, poorly reflect the ethnic groups in question, and just plain silly. Pigment wise, humans as a species are on the same spectrum of very light skin pigment to very dark skin pigment, and vice versa.
That's not a difference in color, that's a difference in shade (or value.) There's even a variety of pigment within ethnicities.

Which is sort of the point to people saying "I don't care if you're blue, green, or what-have-you." To me, it shows that the shade of a person's skin is ultimately unimportant, but their character and their actions are. It makes it out to be an arbitrary concern, as it ought to be.

She at one point brings up a word chart and condemns several expressions and terms as things "privileged white people say" to excuse themselves from admitting their own inherent privilege. What bothered me is when she calls citing individualism as an excuse.
I don't see it an excuse, it's a great inherent benefit to being a human being. It's on the basis of being an individual, that you are judged. That's the most you have control over as a human being. As an individual, you choose to be the type of person you want to be.
Generally, I wouldn't judge someone based solely their skin, that would be rather prejudiced. Nor would I want to generalize people into a group, like some sort of monolith. As people don't act or express themselves the same way or believe the same things, simply because they have similar skin or belong the same ethnicity.

What I ascribe to universalism, is that we're all human beings, that is our common ground, that is how we're all the same. You can even scale that down to being united as fellow citizens of a country.
So we indeed are all individuals, and we are all the same as human beings.

Having "people of color" in your life isn't going to somehow enrich your life or make it any more meaningful just by contact. Ironically enough, I find that mindset a bit racist.

What makes the most difference is building healthy relationships with people and respecting and appreciating each other as individuals. Just treat me like an individual. My skin should not be part of your primary assessment of me as a person. Regardless if it's well-intentioned or not.

There's so much more I want to speak on, but I'll leave it here for now.

That video just rubbed me the wrong way...
 
So, I've watched the entire video, and to be perfectly honest, I don't agree with most of what she said.

It's well-intentioned, but for all of the intentions of fighting racism, some of the ideas and views put forth are arguably racist. Most likely unintentionally.

First and foremost, I disagree with her "conditional" definition of racism. Racism is the discrimination of a person or demographic on the basis of their skin or ethnicity and that they're genetically inferior. Here are other clear definitions of racism that are pretty consistent with each other:

Racism
1. Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
2. A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race


Racism is not bound by systematic oppression. Racism can be reinforced by a system of government, or a religious practice, or political ideology, or any other worldview for that matter.
Both on a large scale as well as on a personal scale. It can be expressed through laws, or media, or individual expression. It can be internalized or acted out.

It's not solely the systematic oppression of a minority group within a society. I have an issue with that conditional definition, as it implies that minorities themselves somehow can't possibly harbor racist views about other ethnic groups. Even though reality has shown that to be false.

The dictionary definition is not sufficient when the entire subject is about a sociological phenomenon. When she says "Racism" she is talking about systemic racism which is prejudice coupled with power.

ThoughtCo. said:
Developed by sociologist Joe Feagin, systemic racism is a popular way of explaining, within the social sciences and humanities, the significance of race and racism both historically and in today's world. Feagin describes the concept and the realities attached to it in his well-researched and readable book, Racist America: Roots, Current Realities, & Future Reparations. In it, Feagin uses historical evidence and demographic statistics to create a theory that asserts that the United States was founded in racism since the Constitution classified black people as the property of whites. Feagin illustrates that the legal recognition of racialized slavery is a cornerstone of a racist social system in which resources and rights were and are unjustly given to white people and unjustly denied to people of color.

The theory of systemic racism accounts for individual, institutional, and structural forms of racism.

The development of this theory was influenced by other scholars of race, including Frederick Douglass, W.E.B. Du Bois, Oliver Cox, Anna Julia Cooper, Kwame Ture, Frantz Fanon, and Patricia Hill Collins, among others.

Feagin defines systemic racism in the introduction to the book:

SYSTEMIC RACISM INCLUDES THE COMPLEX ARRAY OF ANTIBLACK PRACTICES, THE UNJUSTLY GAINED POLITICAL-ECONOMIC POWER OF WHITES, THE CONTINUING ECONOMIC AND OTHER RESOURCE INEQUALITIES ALONG RACIAL LINES, AND THE WHITE RACIST IDEOLOGIES AND ATTITUDES CREATED TO MAINTAIN AND RATIONALIZE WHITE PRIVILEGE AND POWER. SYSTEMIC HERE MEANS THAT THE CORE RACIST REALITIES ARE MANIFESTED IN EACH OF SOCIETY’S MAJOR PARTS [...] EACH MAJOR PART OF U.S. SOCIETY--THE ECONOMY, POLITICS, EDUCATION, RELIGION, THE FAMILY--REFLECTS THE FUNDAMENTAL REALITY OF SYSTEMIC RACISM.

While Feagin developed the theory based on the history and reality of anti-black racism in the U.S., it is usefully applied to understanding how racism functions generally, both within the U.S. and around the world.

Elaborating on the definition quoted above, Feagin uses historical data in his book to illustrate that systemic racism is primarily composed of seven major elements, which we will review here.

Link

Minorities can be prejudiced against other groups but within the context of greater society, one minority doesn't have a far-reaching wide extent of power to oppress another.

We want to fight racism, yet we continue to separate our species into arbitrary categories based on superficial traits like the shade differences in our skin pigment.
She, like many people, uses language like "white people" in contrast to "people of color." Simply by drawing that distinction with ill-defined terms, it causes pointless separation.

What the hell does the term "people of color" even mean? At the beginning of the video, she calls attention to the fact that she's white and how obvious her whiteness is. To be honest she could've been Hispanic for all I know, considering that there are actual Hispanic or Latino women that have the same shade of pigment that she has.
Hell, even women from other ethnicities share the same pigment. By doing that she automatically groups them as a sort of "other" apart from white people. Is that not a paradox? Is that not considered a form of self-segregation that she speaks about?

Personally, I've never understood the point of the categorizations we use, as they're terribly inconsistent, poorly reflect the ethnic groups in question, and just plain silly. Pigment wise, humans as a species are on the same spectrum of very light skin pigment to very dark skin pigment, and vice versa.
That's not a difference in color, that's a difference in shade (or value.) There's even a variety of pigment within ethnicities.

Which is sort of the point to people saying "I don't care if you're blue, green, or what-have-you." To me, it shows that the shade of a person's skin is ultimately unimportant, but their character and their actions are. It makes it out to be an arbitrary concern, as it ought to be.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, my experience as a black man gives me a different experience and perspective of society than a white man. My further identity as a bisexual black man gives me a different perspective than a straight black man and even black women. People are their identity color blindness is a cop-out for choosing to ignore my differences for the sake of comfort. I embrace my blackness. I embrace my bisexuality. These aren't superficial. They come with myriad thoughts, lessons, and experiences that vary due to the way society not only views me but treats me. The intersection of the many different aspects of myself are what make me unique. I’m not just another human being nor am I willing to toss aside my blackness or my bisexuality because these are important and formative parts of my life. My identity as a bisexual black male isn't what creates division and racism. The existence of a society that props up white supremacy and homophobic ideals and the people who buy into those modes of thinking are what create and perpetuate bigotry. The point of a world without racism is a world where a white man can see me as a black man, know how I differ from him and accept me just the same and celebrate what we have in common as well as what makes us different. That's actual progress. Colorblindness is laziness.

Also since you picked out the definition of "racism", I'm surprised you didn't pick out the definition for "people of color" which does exist and is simply a person who is not white or of European heritage. No one claims it's perfect. It's simply shorthand. And it does have its problems such as:

Baltimore Racial Justice Action said:
By treating all groups not classified as white or that speak English as a second language as if they have been impacted the same way by American Apartheid and as if they face common obstacles, completely obscures the ways that these separate groups are viewed by American society. Furthermore, it negates the relationship (including history and power dynamic) that the specific groups under the “People of Color” umbrella have with American “whiteness”:

• Lumping all groups who are not classified as white or who speak English as a second language under one term (People of Color) ignores the very specific, central, multi-generational role and continuing impact of white supremacy, enslavement, Jim Crow, and Anti-Black bias;

• Diminishes the separate histories and stories of individual groups not classified as white or that speak English as a second language;

• Obscures the role of white skin privilege and the historical role it plays in assimilating immigrant groups — especially immigrant English-as-a-second-language speakers with white skin privilege or who are seen as desirable minorities — into American whiteness within generations; and

• Conceals America’s race-based relationship with “identification duality” (supporting white and other ethnic/immigrant assimilationists identification with their “roots” as non-threatening”; condemning African American “root” identification as being threatening to their identity as “Americans”; and appropriating certain parts of the “root” cultures of Asians and Native Americans).

Link

She at one point brings up a word chart and condemns several expressions and terms as things "privileged white people say" to excuse themselves from admitting their own inherent privilege. What bothered me is when she calls citing individualism as an excuse.
I don't see it an excuse, it's a great inherent benefit to being a human being. It's on the basis of being an individual, that you are judged. That's the most you have control over as a human being. As an individual, you choose to be the type of person you want to be.
Generally, I wouldn't judge someone based solely their skin, that would be rather prejudiced. Nor would I want to generalize people into a group, like some sort of monolith. As people don't act or express themselves the same way or believe the same things, simply because they have similar skin or belong the same ethnicity.

What I ascribe to universalism, is that we're all human beings, that is our common ground, that is how we're all the same. You can even scale that down to being united as fellow citizens of a country.
So we indeed are all individuals, and we are all the same as human beings.

Having "people of color" in your life isn't going to somehow enrich your life or make it any more meaning, just by contact. Ironically enough, I find that mindset a bit racist.

What makes the most difference is building healthy relationships with people and respecting and appreciating each other as individuals.
Just treat me like an individual. My skin should not be part of your assent of me as a person. Regardless if it's well-intentioned or not.

There's so much more I want to speak on, but I'll leave it here for now.

That video just rubbed me the wrong way...

Individualism and universalism would be fine if we didn't live in a world where misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia. Modern society has already made the judgment call by allowing a status quo that results in people outside its margins, aka straight, white, able-bodied cis males, to have a different experience of the same world. Sure everyone is a unique individual but groups of black people, indigenous people, gay people, trans people, and the disabled assemble to fight for their civil rights in the first place because they do have a parity of experiences within our society. They may not act the same or believe the same thing, yet they are united because society groups them by their shared disenfranchisement for things they cannot change about themselves. You say you see people all as human beings and judge them on an individual basis. Fine. That's all well and good for you. The reality as the member of a marginalized group is that things aren't that simple. Your individualist or universal mindset doesn't help much in the face of monoliths of racist institutions in this country like the school to prison pipeline or gentrification or mass incarceration or the existence of genocidal white supremacist groups or police brutality. It doesn't help with rape culture or the epidemic of transphobic murders. I've mentioned this in a previous post but the reason she mentions that actually communicating and sincerely listening to minorities and marginalized groups, in general, is enriching is because of bigoted institutions only last when the majority chooses to ignore the experience of the minority. Police brutality persists because the experiences of black people are ignored. Cultures of rape and sexual abuse in the workplace continue because the experiences of women are belittled. Gay-bashing and transphobia continue to exist because LGBTQ+ have to continually fight to be treated humanely. There is value to actually listening to the lives of the marginalized. There wouldn't be thousands of books on what it means to be Asian in America or what it means to live in the inner city as a young black man or what it means to grow up gay in a Christian home or what it means to be Muslim post-9/11 if these experiences weren't profound in how they form people and how they can change others. As I've said before, we're actually truly united when 2 people with vastly different life experiences bond not just on common ground but on their differences as well.

it means people who arent white will you tell you and if you disagree youre probably racist

Watch the video & read the topic
 

lenovox1

Member
Interesting vid. I'll be honest, I didn't really understand sections of it, but then I guess that's part of the problem.

The gist is, "it's how we as humans and as Americans have been socialized through systemic forces throughout our lives and this is how it impacts people." What would like clarification on?
 

Infinite

Member
Can't believe someone in this thread use the dictionary definition of racism to refute the content in this video. Once again using a dictionary to understand sociological concepts, for the purposes of debating someone no less, is a mistake. You are not fully informed on the scope and breadth of the subject because you read a sentence worth of information. Try an encyclopedia next time.
 

Sinfamy

Member
I'm Eastern European.
I'm pale as snow, but if asked I doubt I'd identify as "white", I see that more as an American cultural identity, rather than the description of my skin color, because I sure as hell know I didn't belong in many places despite being "white".
Is that weird? Maybe I'm wrong.
 
Subbing to the thread so I can watch the video this evening.

"Whiteness" "Blackness" "PoC" - they aren't ethnicities, they're castes. IMO this word is the key to understanding everything
I never really thought about it this way, but it does feel strangely apt.

I'm Eastern European.
I'm pale as snow, but if asked I doubt I'd identify as "white", I see that more as an American cultural identity, rather than the description of my skin color, because I sure as hell know I didn't belong in many places despite being "white".
Is that weird? Maybe I'm wrong.
I don't think this is abnormal. Europe's a lot more homogeneous, so our identification's historically been more about differentiating between specific flavours of white people. In practice this overlaps a lot with national borders, by the languages we speak, accents we have, or religions we worship. Discrimination's a forever-moving goalpost I guess.
 
I'm Eastern European.
I'm pale as snow, but if asked I doubt I'd identify as "white", I see that more as an American cultural identity, rather than the description of my skin color, because I sure as hell know I didn't belong in many places despite being "white".
Is that weird? Maybe I'm wrong.

The reason it has so much weight here in the US is because of the historically all-encompassing nature of white supremacy here. When whiteness was a literal political designation that people could be brought into if they accepted and performed white supremacy. People like the Polish and Irish in America started off as undesirables at levels just a bit higher than black people who were basically considered animals. [URL="http://www.theroot.com/when-the-irish-weren-t-white-1793358754]Until they assimilated and participated in the same anti-black practices America was built on. Then they were considered white and gained the privileges it entailed.[/URL]
 

mortal

Gold Member
The dictionary definition is not sufficient when the entire subject is about a sociological phenomenon. When she says "Racism" she is talking about systemic racism which is prejudice coupled with power.



Link

Minorities can be prejudiced against other groups but within the context of greater society, one minority doesn't have a far-reaching wide extent of power to oppress another.
How can the textbook definition of racism not be sufficient? It makes perfect sense to me when I apply it to plenty of occurrences that would be considered racially motivated. Racism is a worldview, specifically a personal view express by a person. Abstract concepts like 'system' or 'society,' inherently cannot express personal views, it's the people within it that are the source of the expression. Racism starts when one person expresses their belief that people with different skin or ethnicity apart from their own are inherently inferior. Taken to its extreme, racism can be enforced by people in positions of authority (what would be considered, power), whether in government, industry or education, that harbor or express themselves in accordance with racist views.

That's specifically institutional racism. Which for the most part is no longer in effect, at least in the current United States. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 did happen and is still being upheld.

What of the racism expressed by the common person? Are those occurrences not legitimate cases of racism, even though there isn't any sort of institutional power be wielded against the individual being harassed? One individual harassing another on the basis of their skin or ethnicity is arguably the most common form of racism.

It doesn't take an institution to marginalize someone due to aspects beyond their control. All that's required is when an individual ( or a group) discriminates against others, which any human being is capable of.



Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, my experience as a black man gives me a different experience and perspective of society than a white man. My further identity as a bisexual black man gives me a different perspective than a straight black man and even black women.
Why would I have a problem acknowledging that? I'm certain your own experience is different from anyone else's. It makes sense that your sexuality makes you see and experience the world a bit differently from others who are not bisexual, since sexuality influences who we interact within our lives, within certain social or private context.
Naturally, experiences will be different. Just as my experience is different from your own for a myriad of factors. It's essentially why I championed individualism in my original post, so I'm glad you mentioned that. As you said, it gives you a different perspective, not any more or any less perspective than others. Same came be said of any other individual when compared to you or me.
Yes, aspects of ethnicity or sexuality are part of our identity, but they are not ultimately who we are as individuals. Unless one chooses to view themselves in that way.



People are their identity color blindness is a cop-out for choosing to ignore my differences for the sake of comfort. I embrace my blackness. I embrace my bisexuality. These aren't superficial. They come with myriad thoughts, lessons, and experiences that vary due to the way society not only views me but treats me. The intersection of the many different aspects of myself are what make me unique. I'm not just another human being nor am I willing to toss aside my blackness or my bisexuality because these are important and formative parts of my life. My identity as a bisexual black male isn't what creates division and racism. The existence of a society that props up white supremacy and homophobic ideals and the people who buy into those modes of thinking are what create and perpetuate bigotry.
I don't believe that's a fair claim, at least in the way you framed that first statement. People generally aren't actively denying your the right to express yourself or identify as black and bisexual. Certainly, not the government within the United States.
I agree that many aspects of you make you unique, I would also agree that you're not just another human being. I've never said you were, if anything, I maid the claim for the opposite. I'm not asking you to toss aside anything, I don't even know you personally haha.

Although, I don't understand why you continue bringing up your sexuality as if it were being challenged. I never have, nor do I have any interest in doing so. I understand that people belonging to ethnic and sexual minorities have been and continue to face discrimination in this world, but I feel conflating the two issues only makes clearly discussing issues in proper context more difficult.

At this point, I would like to ask what exactly do you mean by "blackness"? Is it simply in relation to how dark one's skin is? Is it in relation to the ethnicity within the United States?

Blackness to me is such a nebulous term, as the definition seems to change depending on context.

If it's the former, then I find it to be ill-defined for everyone within that ethnicity in relation to pigment and the amount of melanin that one has ( or lack thereof.) The majority of black people's skin are varying shades of brown. Anywhere from light browns to very dark browns.
As I've already mentioned, there are also black people that have skin as light as some white people or Asians or Latinos. My point is, that for a visual indicator of one's race based on a single color, blackness is not reflective of the reality that is the unique genetic makeup within this ethnic group.

If it's the latter, then isn't that a cultural argument instead of a racial argument? Which isn't necessarily consistent between all black people. The United States can be considered a multi-cultural nation because of the variety of people from other countries that immigrate to the U.S., which tend to include their cultural customs, language, or religious practice.

There are many people who are considered black in the United States who hail from Caribean countries, African countries, European countries, South American, etc.
Many of these countries have unique cultures apart from one another. They have different languages, customs, cuisine, history, and pop culture.

How can you possibly take all of that, and lump it all together as "blackness?" To me, that diminishes the uniqueness of their cultural identity. I find the same issue with the nebulous term "people of color."

Lastly, I'm not attributing any racism to you personally. I argue against the use of terminology and how we continue to separate each other (and ourselves) into poorly defined, inconsistent and outdated social constructs, such as race.

Which white supremacist groups are being propped up by society? I'm fairly certain that hate groups like the KKK and legitimate neo-nazis are openly condemned and chastised by most of the society. Homosexuality is now more accepted in society more than it's ever been.
Gay marriage is now legal in The United States, among several other countries. U.S. Citizens that identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual can go to college, or open bank accounts, take out loans, apply for any job with consideration to their skill, education, and experience, just like any other citizen.
That isn't to say there aren't any bigots and ignorant people within society today, but you are being disingenuous by condemning the entirety of society as equally guilty. There has been progression, not only in the United States but in many other countries.
It's by no means a perfect world, there is certainly more progress to be made for as many people in need of it, but it's no longer the same world it was in the 1950's, and that says a lot.

You cannot expect everyone to accept you as a person, just because. That can only come from understanding and education based in universal truths, not misconceptions or bias.


The point of a world without racism is a world where a white man can see me as a black man, know how I differ from him and accept me just the same and celebrate what we have in common as well as what makes us different. That's actual progress. Colorblindness is laziness.
I respectfully disagree. A world without racism is one where we stop seeing each other as opposites. By contrast, white is literally the opposite of black, and vice versa.

See me as an individual, don't assume anything more than that. Judge me by my actions and how I express myself, same as I would with you. Accept and embrace our genetic differences and similarities, just not at the expense of others. Because that is what gives us strength as a species.

That, in essence, is what it means to see beyond color. It's funny because morally, we essentially agree here, but I believe the terms like 'black, white, people of color' play a part in perpetuating racism. At best, they're hardly consistent in their representation, at worst they're are arbitrarily divisive in nature.


Also since you picked out the definition of "racism", I'm surprised you didn't pick out the definition for "people of color" which does exist and is simply a person who is not white or of European heritage. No one claims it's perfect. It's simply shorthand. And it does have its problems such as:



Link

Which is why I refrained from using it to define racism. I'm glad we can at somewhat agree on faults of the term. Personally, I don't see that point in using it. If we're going to do that, why not call all white people in the United States "European Americans?" At least then, it would be more consistent.



Individualism and universalism would be fine if we didn't live in a world where misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia. Modern society has already made the judgment call by allowing a status quo that results in people outside its margins, aka straight, white, able-bodied cis males, to have a different experience of the same world. Sure everyone is a unique individual but groups of black people, indigenous people, gay people, trans people, and the disabled assemble to fight for their civil rights in the first place because they do have a parity of experiences within our society. They may not act the same or believe the same thing, yet they are united because society groups them by their shared disenfranchisement for things they cannot change about themselves. You say you see people all as human beings and judge them on an individual basis. Fine. That's all well and good for you. The reality as the member of a marginalized group is that things aren't that simple. Your individualist or universal mindset doesn't help much in the face of monoliths of racist institutions in this country like the school to prison pipeline or gentrification or mass incarceration or the existence of genocidal white supremacist groups or police brutality. It doesn't help with rape culture or the epidemic of transphobic murders. I've mentioned this in a previous post but the reason she mentions that actually communicating and sincerely listening to minorities and marginalized groups, in general, is enriching is because of bigoted institutions only last when the majority chooses to ignore the experience of the minority. Police brutality persists because the experiences of black people are ignored. Cultures of rape and sexual abuse in the workplace continue because the experiences of women are belittled. Gay-bashing and transphobia continue to exist because LGBTQ+ have to continually fight to be treated humanely. There is value to actually listening to the lives of the marginalized. There wouldn't be thousands of books on what it means to be Asian in America or what it means to live in the inner city as a young black man or what it means to grow up gay in a Christian home or what it means to be Muslim post-9/11 if these experiences weren't profound in how they form people and how they can change others. As I've said before, we're actually truly united when 2 people with vastly different life experiences bond not just on common ground but on their differences as well.
Yes, the world far from perfect. There is too much suffering, and still too much inequality in certain parts of the world. That fact does not negate the ideals of individualism or universalism. Becuase the world is not ideal for everyone, these are ideals that inspire and underpin things like civil rights and freedom of expression within a just society. To disregard them, would be to disregard the very things you claim to be for.

All of these marginalized and minority groups you mentioned deserve civil rights because they are just as human as any majority within that society. It's the affirmation that everyone is equal and has God-given rights as human beings. That is our common ground, and that is what unites together. Their parity is their humanity.

My issue is that you're blaming society for grouping certain people together, yet you're doing just that in your own post right now. You're collectively speaking for so many people at the same time, I couldn't possibly believe you truly understand them as people or know what they all want for themselves, beyond civil rights and equal opportunity.

I'm not sure if you were trying to overwhelm me or prove my argument invalid by bringing up all of these issues at once. You're bringing up so many different issues plaguing society as if the same solution will fix it all. All these issues need to be dealt with proper attention and assessment.
Unfortunately, none of these issues are going to be solved overnight. Although, lumping them all together into one giant super evil will that society must correct tomorrow will only serve to overwhelm you or anyone else that wants to find solutions.

I understand that your heart bleeds for people you feel are marginalized, but you can't expect to solve any of these societal woes without thinking of them critically or objectively. Some of these issues need to be addressed one at a time within the proper context, with pragmatic suggestions in mind. And Having the dialogue with the necessary people in order to bring about a true and just solution.

You can't just make outrageous claims like the school to prison pipeline, or genocidal white supremacist groups without backing up claims with sources. As it weakens any sort of reasonable distance when discussing the issues at hand.

Police brutality and misconduct is very much an issue in The United States. What are your suggestions to what should be done to prevent this from happening as often as it does?

In my honest opinion, police academies need to create more strict and thorough training regiments and cognitive and emotional tests for trainees. They need to be medically examed and deemed fit to work in the field. They need to be better trained in de-escalating conflict without out the immediate need for lethal force.
We cannot paint every single encounter of a police officer shooting someone who isn't white as police brutality. As it only serves to make light of the genuine instances of when a police officer was legally in the wrong and someone civil rights were violated, or when life wrongfully was taken.

To me, the real issue is human nature, specifically the worst parts of human nature. The most I can do to counter the evil and injustice is to call it out for what it is and openly condemn it. Beyond that, I choose to treat people as well as I want to be treated. Help those in need whenever it's within my means to help.
That doesn't just apply to me obviously, as there are others in this world going above and beyond to help others in need and unite each other, and that inspires me and gives me hope. It reaffirms to me that everyone is ultimately human, regardless of their gender, ethnicity, sexuality, or skin pigment.
 
Which white supremacist groups are being propped up by society? I'm fairly certain that hate groups like the KKK and legitimate neo-nazis are openly condemned and chastised by most of the society. Homosexuality is now more accepted in society more than it's ever been.
Gay marriage is now legal in The United States, among several other countries. U.S. Citizens that identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual can go to college, or open bank accounts, take out loans, apply for any job with consideration to their skill, education, and experience, just like any other citizen.
That isn't to say there aren't any bigots and ignorant people within society today, but you are being disingenuous by condemning the entirety of society as equally guilty. There has been progression, not only in the United States but in many other countries.
It's by no means a perfect world, there is certainly more progress to be made for as many people in need of it, but it's no longer the same world it was in the 1950's, and that says a lot.

...

You can't just make outrageous claims like the school to prison pipeline, or genocidal white supremacist groups without backing up claims with sources. As it weakens any sort of reasonable distance when discussing the issues at hand.

You know what, I'm going to make this simple and answer these two points of yours in particular. It's clear from your appearance in the Needle Drop thread and your issues with this video stem from the fact that you don't actually think that inequality exists on a detrimental societal level.

To start with being "better than the 1950s" is a truth but it isn't an actual marker that civil rights have fully been gained for marginalized groups. Better than when we could be publicly killed without consequence is only a statement that makes people complacent (let alone basically untrue since that killing still happens in a different context than a fatal attack from a hooded hick I.e. police brutality). That makes people ignore the fact that there is still inequality perpetrated by the country we live in that ensures people meant to be on the bottom rung of the societal ladder, stay there. Your mistake is that you believe because Civil Rights exists as an act doesn't mean the people who spent generations on generations marginalizing black people would A) listen & B) not look for other methods and loopholes to continue perpetuating institutional racism. I'm posting these links and statistics again from another topic because I believe they're important for not only you but many people, American and otherwise to acknowledge:

NAACP said:
Incarceration Trends in America

Between 1980 and 2015, the number of people incarcerated in America increased from roughly 500,000 to< over 2.2 million
Today, the United States makes up about 5% of the world’s population and has 21% of the world’s prisoners.
1 in every 37 adults in the United States, or 2.7% of the adult population, is under some form of correctional supervision.

Racial Disparities in Incarceration

In 2014, African Americans constituted 2.3 million, or 34%, of the total 6.8 million correctional population.
African Americans are incarcerated at more than 5 times the rate of whites.
The imprisonment rate for African American women is twice that of white women.
Nationwide, African American children represent 32% of children who are arrested, 42% of children who are detained, and 52% of children whose cases are judicially waived to criminal court.
Though African Americans and Hispanics make up approximately 32% of the US population, they comprised 56% of all incarcerated people in 2015.
If African Americans and Hispanics were incarcerated at the same rates as whites, prison and jail populations would decline by almost 40%.
Drug Sentencing Disparities
In the 2015 National Survey on Drug Use and Health, about 17 million whites and 4 million African Americans reported having used an illicit drug within the last month.
African Americans and whites use drugs at similar rates, but the imprisonment rate of African Americans for drug charges is almost 6 times that of whites.
African Americans represent 12.5% of illicit drug users, but 29% of those arrested for drug offenses and 33% of those incarcerated in state facilities for drug offenses.

Contributing Factors

Inner city crime prompted by social and economic isolation
Crime/drug arrest rates: African Americans represent 12% of monthly drug users, but comprise 32% of persons arrested for drug possession
“Get tough on crime” and “war on drugs” policies
Mandatory minimum sentencing, especially disparities in sentencing for crack and powder cocaine possession
In 2002, blacks constituted more than 80% of the people sentenced under the federal crack cocaine laws and served substantially more time in prison for drug offenses than did whites, despite that fact that more than 2/3 of crack cocaine users in the U.S. are white or Hispanic
“Three Strikes”/habitual offender policies
Zero Tolerance policies as a result of perceived problems of school violence; adverse affect on black children
35% of black children grades 7-12 have been suspended or expelled at some point in their school careers compared to 20% of Hispanics and 15% of whites

Effects of Incarceration

A criminal record can reduce the likelihood of a callback or job offer by nearly 50 percent. The negative impact of a criminal record is twice as large for African American applicants.
Infectious diseases are highly concentrated in corrections facilities: 15% of jail inmates and 22% of prisoners – compared to 5% of the general population – reported ever having tuberculosis, Hepatitis B and C, HIV/AIDS, or other STDs.
In 2012 alone, the United States spent nearly $81 billion on corrections.
Spending on prisons and jails has increased at triple the rate of spending on Pre-K-12 public education in the last thirty years.

The Root said:
Education

If education is the key to success, then there is no debate that whites have the advantage in America. In 2012, the U. S. Department of Education reported that about 33 percent of all white students attend a low-poverty school, while only 6 percent attend high-poverty schools. In comparison, only 10 percent of black students attend a low-poverty school, while more than 40 percent of black students attend high-poverty schools.

...

Employment

Even when black students manage to overcome the hurdles of unequal education, they still don’t get equal treatment when it comes to jobs. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, as of Friday, April 7, the unemployment rate for African Americans was nearly double that of whites (8.1 percent for blacks, 4.3 percent for whites).

There are some who will say blacks should study harder, but this phenomenon can’t be explained by simple educational disparities. A 2015 study by the Center for Economic and Policy Research shows that whites with the exact same résumés as their black counterparts are hired at double the rate. In fact, a white man with a criminal history is more likely to be hired than an African American with no criminal past.

A similarly named, but different, organization—the Economic Policy Institute—examined 2015 data and discovered that at every level of education, whites were twice as likely to have jobs as blacks.

This means that black students are more than six times more likely than white students to attend a high-poverty school, while white students are more than three times more likely than black students to attend a low-poverty school.

...

Income

But let’s say a black man somehow gets a great education and finds a job; surely that means the playing field is level, right?

Not so fast.

Researchers at EPI found that black men with 11-20 years of work experience earned 23.5 percent less than their white counterparts, and black women with 11-20 years of experience were paid 12.6 percent less than white women with the same experience. This disparity is not getting smaller. The wage gap between black and white workers was 18.1 percent in 1979, and steadily increased to 26.7 percent in 2015. When Pew Research controlled for education and just looked at income data, white men still surpassed every other group.

These income inequalities persist to create the disparities in wealth between races, manifesting in generational disadvantages. A black person with the same education and experience as a similar Caucasian, over the span of their lives, will earn significantly less.

...

Spending

It is a little-known fact that the average black person pays more for almost every item he or she purchases. While there is no discount Groupon that comes whit white skin, there might as well be. A John Hopkins study (pdf) showed that supermarkets were less prevalent in poor black neighborhoods than in white neighborhoods with the same average income, leading to increased food costs. News organization ProPublica recently found that car-insurance companies charge people who live in black neighborhoods higher rates than people in predominantly white areas with the same risk.

When it comes to credit, it is even worse. According to the National Bureau of Economic Research, The Atlantic reports, “even after controlling for general risk considerations, such as credit score, loan-to-value ratio, subordinate liens, and debt-to-income ratios, Hispanic Americans are 78 percent more likely to be given a high-cost mortgage, and black Americans are 105 percent more likely.” Even banks as large as Wells Fargo have lost cases for up-charging minorities.

According to the Wall Street Journal, large auto lenders have paid more than $200 million since 2013 to settle lawsuits for charging minorities higher rates, but in November, both Democrats and Republicans voted to reduce regulations on the financial institutions that offer auto loans. The National Consumer Law Center filed a 2007 lawsuit that exposed how “finance companies and banks put in place policies that allowed car dealers to mark up the interest rates on auto loans to minorities based on subjective criteria unrelated to their credit risk.”

CNN said:
In addition to inequalities in health outcomes (which have many roots), disparities persist in health care access. According to a 2013 report, blacks and Hispanics have substantially higher uninsured rates than whites. And while many are pinning their hopes on the Affordable Care Act to address such inequalities, the act won't remedy the many deeply rooted racial injustices in America's health care system.

The ACA's primary instrument for increasing health coverage for people of color is the expansion of Medicaid to all those earning less than 138% of the federal poverty level. However, although Medicaid eligibility was meant to expand nationwide, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that states could opt out. Some 19 states are doing exactly that.

Salon said:
Race is how economic class is lived in America. Consequently, from the nation's founding to the present, race and class (as well as gender) are a social and political scaffolding on which opportunities and privileges are affixed in the United States.
Racism and classism are so intertwined that it would take hundreds of years for black Americans to have the same levels of wealth as whites. Writing at The Nation, Joshua Holland explains:
If current economic trends continue, the average black household will need 228 years to accumulate as much wealth as their white counterparts hold today. For the average Latino family, it will take 84 years. Absent significant policy interventions, or a seismic change in the American economy, people of color will never close the gap. Those are the key findings of a new study of the racial wealth-gap released this week by the Institute for Policy Studies (IPS) and the Corporation For Economic Development (CFED) ... To put that in perspective, the wealthiest Americans — members of the Forbes 400 list — saw their net worths increase by 736 percent during that period, on average.
These outcomes indicate how institutional and systemic white supremacy creates disparate and unequal economic outcomes for people of color. Such outcomes are also a reminder that racism doesn't just cause spiritual, psychological and physical harm to its victims, but is part of a broader economic and material system of intergroup power relationships. As sociologist Joe Feagin demonstrates in his books “Racist America,” “Systemic Racism,” “The Many Costs of Racism” and “White Party, White Government,” the country’s history of land theft (from First Nations peoples), labor theft (from African-Americans), and discrimination in hiring and promotion in the labor market (against nonwhites in general), is a type of subsidy that has transferred trillions of dollars to white Americans at the expense of people of color.

...

The racial wealth gap is a critical matter of public policy because it impacts almost every social indicator and life outcome. In the U.S., quality of health, likelihood of marriage, educational attainment, age of death, rates of incarceration and overall quality of life are directly impacted by an individual’s and household’s level of wealth. Correcting the racial wealth gap — and addressing the systemic and institutional factors that created and sustain it — would also present an amazing opportunity to increase human social capital and economic productivity. For example, a 2013 report from the Altarum Institute and the W.K. Kellogg Foundation concluded that “race, class, residential segregation and income levels all work together to hamper access to opportunity," with the cost of racism estimated at $2 trillion a year.
On a macro level, money is political speech. The American political system, especially in the era of Citizens United, is a de facto plutocracy where the policy demands of the wealthy are privileged over those of the people. This plutocracy is also a racial one: White men are grossly overrepresented among that group. As the U.S. continues to become more racially diverse, the race wealth gap will further undermine faith in democracy by making elites even less responsive to the needs of the public. When economic power is concentrated among the few, and this occurs along lines of race, a multiracial democracy will inevitably face a crisis of legitimacy. Correcting the race wealth gap is one way of avoiding such a crisis.



The Root
CNN
Salon
NAACP

Continued in my next post...
 
Continued from my previous post...

Next, I'm going to address the idea that white supremacist groups are relegated to the dregs of society. White supremacy is as alive today as it was when people picnicked at lynchings and it exists under different names and forms than just the KKK and it still has power

Rolling Stone said:
Violence defines the far right
Along with preaching white supremacist ideas, the far right has been incredibly violent. One of the perversities of American history is that there has been more fear of the left (the Black Panthers, the Weather Underground) than the far more violent right (the Order, the Aryan Brotherhood, the Militia movement). From the assassination of radio host Alan Berg to the Oklahoma City bombing, which killed 168 innocents, the right is more willing to use violence, and more murderous when they do so. Recent right-wing mass murder episodes include Wade Michael Page's 2012 attack on a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, which killed six; Frazier Glen Miller's 2014 targeting of Jewish community center in Kansas, which killed three; and Jared and Amanda Miller's 2014 murder spree in Las Vegas, which killed five (including themselves).

And then there's Dylann Roof's 2015 murder of nine black parishioners at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina. Roof was an avowed white supremacist who posted pictures of himself posing with Confederate flags and guns and burning an American flag. Reportedly his last words to his victims were, "I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go."

...

White supremacy today
Today's white supremacists are splintered into dozens of groups with similar ideologies. There is a lot of crossover between these groups, with people moving back and forth between them. There are the neo-Nazis, who use websites like Stormfront and the Daily Stormer to coordinate their activities. Then there are the slightly more mainstream white nationalists who call for the creation of an ethnically pure white state (an "ethno-state") and the neo-Confederates who do the same but with an added dash of pre-Civil War nostalgia. The Klan still exists, of course, with splinter factions around the country.

Then there's the modern alt-right, a term coined by white nationalist Richard Spencer. They tend to be younger and snarkier than those in the older movements. They are particularly offended by what they see as excessive political correctness. They share contempt for mainstream liberals, feminists, "social justice warriors" and immigrants. There is no one alt-right organization, but they tend to gather on platforms like 4chan or the The_Donald (a pro-Trump subreddit). Some of the alt-right came out of the misogynistic Gamergate mess, while others got their start with the Red Pill, a subreddit devoted to pure misogyny. (The "Red Pill" refers to the scene in The Matrix when Keanu Reeves takes the red pill and discovers what the world is really about.) Some take on cute names like the Proud Boys (created by Gavin McInnes, a hipster co-founder of Vice Media) and the Fraternal Order of Alt-Knights.

Even more mainstream is Breitbart, the right-wing political site. Steven Bannon, when he ran Breitbart, proudly claimed it was the platform of the alt-right, and right-wing gadfly Milo Yiannopoulos once wrote a long, gushing profile of the alt-right in the publication. Bannon, who was until Friday President Trump's chief strategy adviser, has claimed to reject the ethno-nationalism of the alt-right, and instead calls himself an economic nationalist. He's also, however, a fan of a rabidly racist 1973 book called The Camp of the Saints, which portrays a white world overwhelmed by a horde of brown and black people.

There is a sad mix of paranoia and inferiority in all these supposedly superior white people. They claim they are the real victims in America – they are the ones who face real racism. Stormfront's website cries out, "We are the voice of the new, embattled White minority!" They portray themselves as warriors, but when they are attacked, they are shocked, hurt, afraid. After Richard Spencer was punched while doing a TV interview on Trump's Inauguration Day, he complained to CNN, "It was absolutely terrible. I've certainly never had this happen before, a sucker punch in broad daylight."

Jason Kessler, the petty criminal and wanna-be nationalist leader who helped to organize the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, gave a press conference Sunday, the day after Heather Heyer was killed, to complain about how the right was being mistreated. "It really is a sad day in our constitutional democracy when we are not able to have civil liberties like the First Amendment," he said. "That's what leads to rational discussion, and ideas breaking down, and people resorting to violence." Then he fled, as a heckler ran up to punch him.

Anti-Defemation League said:
As a fringe movement deeply discontented with the status quo in the United States, white supremacists frequently mobilize—though typically only in small numbers—to protest things to which they are opposed, from specific events or government decisions to entire races or communities. They may also hold events to commemorate things they hold dear, or to share ideas and concepts.
A few recent examples of these sorts of activities illustrate some of the public events that white supremacists hold across the United States:
Harrison, Arkansas, June 2015: Demonstration by Arkansas League of the South members over the “genocidal attack on the Southern people and their symbols,” part of the “deliberate cultural and ethnic cleansing of White, Christian Southerners.” Essentially, a response to calls for the removal of Confederate flags in the wake of the Charleston shootings.
Olympia, Washington, May 2015: A small group of white supremacists, organized by a local Christian Identity adherent, showed up to protest a “Black Lives Matter” demonstration against local police, precipitating a physical clash between the two groups.
Southern California, May 2015: White supremacists from a number of groups joined for a “David Lane Memorial,” commemorating the member of the terrorist group known as The Order who later coined the “Fourteen Words” slogan.
St. Louis, Missouri, April 2015: Aryan Nations members and other white supremacists organized a “Free Gary Yarbrough” demonstration. Gary Yarbrough is a member of the 1980s white supremacist terrorist group called The Order and considered by white supremacists to be a “political prisoner” and martyr to the white supremacist cause.
Montgomery Bell State Park, Tennessee, April 2015: Jared Taylor held his 13th annual American Renaissance conference, attracting over 200 white supremacists from across the country to hear various American and European white supremacist speakers.
Toledo, Ohio, April 2015: Over a two-day span in mid-April, members of the National Socialist Movement staged a “national meeting” on private property in the Toledo area, then the next afternoon held a public rally in downtown Toledo to promote white supremacy.
Maysville, Kentucky, April 2015: Around 10 members of the small Trinity White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan staged a demonstration in Maysville, Kentucky, and in two other nearby towns, before holding a cross burning on private property.
In addition to public events, white supremacists frequently organize barbecues, parties, hate music concerts, and other social gatherings for themselves and like-minded people. The following examples from recent months illustrate this type of activity:
Central California, June 2015: Camp Camradery [sic], a campout and recreational event for white supremacists organized by the California Skinheads and Golden State Skinheads, complete with white power music, a schedule of speakers, and events such as “axe throwing.”
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, June 2015: The annual summer barbecue for the Keystone State Skinheads, aka Keystone United, with around 40 attendees.
Kentucky, May 2015: About a dozen members of the National Socialist Movement engaged in clean-up work on an Adopt-a-Highway section (a frequent neo-Nazi and Klan publicity tactic), then attended a barbecue and “meet n greet.”
Athens, Kentucky, May 2015: Members of two Klan groups, the Confederate White Knights and the Kentucky White Knights, organized a “good old fashioned Klan rally” on private property.
Riverside, Alabama, May 2015: The Southern Brotherhood, a large white supremacist prison gang, held its “20th Anniversary Bash,” complete with raffle and “strongman competition.”
Paris, Tennessee, April 2015: Members of the Supreme White Alliance, a racist skinhead group, held a cookout and cross-burning on private property for a handful of members.

The Intercept said:
WHITE SUPREMACISTS AND other domestic extremists maintain an active presence in U.S. police departments and other law enforcement agencies. A striking reference to that conclusion, notable for its confidence and the policy prescriptions that accompany it, appears in a classified FBI Counterterrorism Policy Guide from April 2015, obtained by The Intercept. The guide, which details the process by which the FBI enters individuals on a terrorism watchlist, the Known or Suspected Terrorist File, notes that “domestic terrorism investigations focused on militia extremists, white supremacist extremists, and sovereign citizen extremists often have identified active links to law enforcement officers,” and explains in some detail how bureau policies have been crafted to take this infiltration into account.

Although these right-wing extremists have posed a growing threat for years, federal investigators have been reluctant to publicly address that threat or to point out the movement’s longstanding strategy of infiltrating the law enforcement community.

No centralized recruitment process or set of national standards exists for the 18,000 law enforcement agencies in the United States, many of which have deep historical connections to racist ideologies. As a result, state and local police as well as sheriff’s departments present ample opportunities for white supremacists and other right-wing extremists looking to expand their power base.

In a heavily redacted version of an October 2006 FBI internal intelligence assessment, the agency raised the alarm over white supremacist groups’ “historical” interest in “infiltrating law enforcement communities or recruiting law enforcement personnel.” The effort, the memo noted, “can lead to investigative breaches and can jeopardize the safety of law enforcement sources or personnel.” The memo also states that law enforcement had recently become aware of the term “ghost skins,” used among white supremacists to describe “those who avoid overt displays of their beliefs to blend into society and covertly advance white supremacist causes.” In at least one case, the FBI learned of a skinhead group encouraging ghost skins to seek employment with law enforcement agencies in order to warn crews of any investigations.

That report appeared after a series of scandals involving local police and sheriff’s departments. In Los Angeles, for example, a U.S. District Court judge found in 1991 that members of a local sheriff’s department had formed a neo-Nazi gang and habitually terrorized black and Latino residents. In Chicago, Jon Burge, a police detective and rumored KKK member, was fired, and eventually prosecuted in 2008, over charges relating to the torture of at least 120 black men during his decadeslong career. Burge notoriously referred to an electric shock device he used during interrogations as the “nigger box.” In Cleveland, officials found that a number of police officers had scrawled “racist or Nazi graffiti” throughout their department’s locker rooms. In Texas, two police officers were fired when it was discovered they were Klansmen. One of them said he had tried to boost the organization’s membership by giving an application to a fellow officer he thought shared his “white, Christian, heterosexual values.”

Although the FBI has not publicly addressed the issue of white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement since that 2006 report, in a 2015 speech, FBI Director James Comey made an unprecedented acknowledgment of the role historically played by law enforcement in communities of color: “All of us in law enforcement must be honest enough to acknowledge that much of our history is not pretty.” Comey and the agency have been less forthcoming about that history’s continuation into the present.

Rolling Stone
ADL
The Intercept

Lastly, the school to prison pipeline is a true problem. It's mesaruable and has been mesuared and expounded on and goes unadressed.

PBS: The Travis Smiley Reports said:
The school-to-prison pipeline: an epidemic that is plaguing schools across the nation. Far too often, students are suspended, expelled or even arrested for minor offenses that leave visits to the principal’s office a thing of the past. Statistics reflect that these policies disproportionately target students of color and those with a history of abuse, neglect, poverty or learning disabilities.

Students who are forced out of school for disruptive behavior are usually sent back to the origin of their angst and unhappiness—their home environments or their neighborhoods, which are filled with negative influence. Those who are forced out for smaller offenses become hardened, confused, embittered. Those who are unnecessarily forced out of school become stigmatized and fall behind in their studies; many eventually decide to drop out of school altogether, and many others commit crimes in their communities.

It is difficult to pinpoint the exact reason for the school-to-prison pipeline. Many attribute it to the zero tolerance policies that took form after the 1999 Columbine High School massacre. Others blame educators, accusing them of pushing out students who score lower on standardized tests in order to improve the school’s overall test scores. And some blame overzealous policing efforts. The reasons are many, but the solutions are not as plentiful.
STPPgraphic.jpg


American Civil Liberties Union said:
By 1967, fictionalized news reports published by local and national media demonized young people of color as “roving bands of Negro youth” taking “over certain areas and terroriz[ing] residents” and maintaining “continual youth warfare.” In exaggerated fashion, newspapers described youth violence as “constantly expanding” into “systems of terror over neighborhoods.” The President’s Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice of 1967 identified youth as the biggest impediment to overall crime reduction, stating, “America’s best hope for reducing crime is to reduce juvenile delinquency and youth crime.” Though on the surface this applied to all young people, contemporary critics of the elevation of youth policing noted that “While acknowledging that the children of middle-class, suburban families often violate the law and antagonize public officials, anti-delinquency policies usually proceed upon the premise that ‘delinquency’ is the sole property of lower-classes. Suburban youth commit crimes; urban youth become delinquent.” In the same moment that Black and Latino students were fighting for equal educational opportunities, public officials blamed students’ “welfare state outlook” for the deterioration of schools. Violent attacks on Black students in Los Angeles, Boston, and elsewhere were presented as a time bomb that Black students created. Public officials suggested that a closer relationship between schools and law enforcement would result in student accountability.” In 1966, the police department in Tucson, Arizona, had stationed police on six junior high school campuses. In the following year, Baltimore City Public Schools asked for over 20 full-time police for its schools. And in Washington, D.C., eight armed and 25 unarmed policemen undertook random check-ins at the city’s 136 elementary schools as part of their regular beats. In 1979, in Boston, during the mandatory desegregation of South Boston High School, while white students rioted uninterrupted in the hallways, police refused to allow 10 Black students whom they identified as “potential troublemakers” to enter the school. By 1972, urban school districts in 40 states had some form of policing within their schools. As a result, youth of color were policed in neighborhoods, in bodegas, in housing project stairwells, and now, in classrooms.

...

The expansion of police presence in schools corresponded with a broader shift toward viewing youth through the lens of criminal justice. Classifying Black and Latino youth as “delinquent” or “potentially delinquent” rationalized an expanding police presence for the expressed purposes of preventing future crime. By the late 1960s, youth crime prevention programs were initiated in many of the nation’s biggest cities. Many of these were funded federally pursuant to the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968, which offered grants through the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration to jurisdictions to engage in programming that encouraged youth to have “respect for law and order.” In Kansas City, Missouri, for example, a program allowed teachers and school administrators to label students as young as nine years old as “pre-delinquent”—which then subjected children without any history of wrongdoing to a variety of police contacts and marked them subject to further interrogation. In Oakland, California, a “juvenile control coordinator” was hired to monitor and share information among school and law enforcement officials about youth who had contact with city agencies. Oakland police would track students whom school administrators deemed delinquent, detaining young students irrespective of whether or not a crime was reported. As early as 1970, the Chicago Police Department had begun preventative patrols in the South Side schools, cruising surrounding neighborhoods and sending plainclothes officers onto school campuses. Programs that gave teachers and administrators, as well as law enforcement, the authority to identify students as “pre-delinquent” are at the origins of what is now called the “school-to-prison pipeline.” The extension of punitive agencies into virtually every aspect of the lives of Black and Latino children and the criminalization of common youth behaviors like “insubordination”—a vague term that became a catchall for any behavior and that has since been applied in racially discriminatory ways—predisposed school teachers, law enforcement, and other officials to treat students as ripe for future criminal activity and virtually ensured a rise in juvenile crime rates. With the passage of the Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Act of 1974, the authority of law enforcement to engage youth based on assumptions of future behavior was fully incorporated under federal law. In the years that followed, programs that targeted “pre-delinquent” youth proliferated throughout major cities. Baltimore City Public Schools allowed researchers to test some 4,500 students whom teachers had identified as “pre-delinquent” or as having “maladaptive” behavior, to the outrage of parents, educators, and child advocates. Some school districts lacked any definition of pre-delinquency. Others defined pre-delinquency by reference to behaviors—“short attention spans . . . [and] quick temper”—recognized today as likely associated with learning or cognitive disabilities. This left room for teachers to label any student who misbehaved or struggled as pre-delinquent. Though many of these programs had components that sought to encourage student self-esteem, they simultaneously branded students with a “red flag” that reinforced prejudgments of criminality by teachers and law enforcement alike.


090116-sttp-graphic.jpg


PBS
ACLU: 1, 2

The message of this video is clear: The world is not as you believe it to be. You can either continue to ignore that or proceed to actually educate yourself on its state beyond The Civil Rights Act of 1964. In all honesty, I don't really care if you're being disingenuous or trolling or if you're honestly naive about the fact that institutional racism exists, and institutional bigotry of multiple forms from sexism to transphobia. This post isn't just for you because yours is a sentiment I see continually by people who genuinely believed that Obama was a sign that the KKK was dead and white supremacy was an ugly thing that was cut off at the neck the moment MLK died. I posted earlier a list of multiple literature sources straight from the mouths of the people who experience and study the modern day (Post #120). If you or anyone else is actually interested in why groups like the ACLU, NAACP, Human Rights Campaign, Emily's List, Campaign Zero, The Innocence Project, Lambda Legal, GLAAD, Disability Rights Advocates have to continue to exist and continue to fight in contemporary society, then read. Actually read and actually learn about this stuff. People's lives are on the line, peoples lives have been lost, and they don't need colorblindness or assurances that "the worst is over". The problems exist. The solutions exist. It just needs devotion from people who actually care.
 

Pizza

Member
I identify as Sicilian, not white. I'm a third generation Sicilian immigrant and my identity as an individual has pretty much nothing to do with "white"

As someone who is eaaasily lumped in with the notion that a nationality of people CAN be white as long as they earn it, I enjoy the privelage of honestly never having been discriminated against. Growing up, people mistook me for Mexican (I live in Texas) bc of my Spanish heritage. Actually people did give me shit in middle school for it which is fucking weird, I usually just ignored them altogether or swung a few fists. Sometimes saying "I'm not Mexican" was enough, but some kids insisted

Since high school it's been a nonissue though. I was at the right age to watch my classmates turn on the Iranian (I think, it was third grade) girl in my class after 9/11. She was like a 4th or 5th generation American though, she was American af and that fucked me up as a kid.

I was never racist at all growing up, but I was ignorant to the shit that happens to other people. I was able to go through most my life completely unaware of how bad the problems actually are, and what people have to actually deal with, shit way worse than the ribbing I got as a kid.

Now I strive to be as informed as I possibly can about this stuff. Shit like the the prison system, the school to prison pipeline, the "war on drugs" taking votes away from people who committed crimes, cops, etc etc etc

Some people just... don't. They never need to and if they stick to only knowing "white" people it'll almost certainly never come up unless it's to talk about those damn antifa or blm terrorists ruining people's commutes to their important jobs.


Edit: yoooo I didn't see the post above mine, I just read the OP. That's some real good shit ^^^^^
 
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