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New PS3 Model (CECH-4000) Registered on FCC (Jeff_Rigby alert)

Miles X

Member
Given their FY projections vs shipments Sony are probably sitting on 1-2m worth of PS3 inventory which would need writing down if they released a new cheaper model. On a mid-point estimate a 20% write down would incur a $70m charge, something Sony can ill-afford right now. A month delay is hardly going to make a difference for the new model which will be in production until 2014 and if it saves them $70m it seems like it is worth it.

They very rarely meet their projections, also not sure how you can judge what's in the channel by their projections given they go all the way up to March next year ...

Besides waiting a month would only shave about 500k off inventory, not 1.5m/2m/ Not to mention it's highly unlikely they've had 2m in the channel since early this year, sales are far too slow for that in these summer months.
 

ekim

Member
I don't think Sony will make a big deal about the slimmer PS3. They will just put them in shelves with a short press message sometime next year.
 
They say how many unsold consoles are on shelves? That would be a strange thing to report.

No of course not, but it's not difficult to estimate the gap in sales vs projections by looking at past buying habits, specifically 2009 when Sony introduced the first slim revision of the PS3.

Either way, we have seen Sony write down PS3 valuations before to the detriment of their balance sheet (2007 and 2008), avoiding this by having a one month delay is not a big deal. Consoles on shelves are not the big deal anyway, it is produced units sitting in the warehouse. Credit is given to stores that are affected and is taken onto the balance sheet separately in receivables, while written down stock sitting in a warehouse must be written down properly with no assets taken on to balance it.

If Sony have over 750k units sitting in warehouses, delaying from August to September makes sense since it is a slow month anyway, and the system sellers aren't coming until October/November anyway at which point the new unit will be out anyway.
 
If the newer hardware has no new feature and in fact has LESS with a flip lid Blu-ray drive not front load then what reason would anyone have to buy the new one over the old one?

The argument in this thread by all except me is that it's just a smaller case and top load drive. The 16 gig Flash drive must be an external drive drop in replacement for a hard Disk as ALL motherboards in all 4000 chassis models are identical (remember the Sony letter in the FCC application).

So how is this new model going to trash sales of older models?

My opinion; Hirari is waiting till TGS in JAPAN to announce everything. Gesh, they have instant streaming now, I assume Playready DRM protected and they aren't making a big deal about it???????? Instant Streaming is IPTV DASH like Netflix.

The streaming stuff is interesting. Earlier this year SEN President Tim Shaaff was asked about subscription service (like netflix) instead of transaction service (PPV like PSN Video now). Said he wasn't ready to talk about it, but they are looking at all kinds of business models. I definitely think a subscription like service is coming to sen sooner or later, the question is whether or not it'll have movies and tv shows that people want instead of just old movies like netflix. They might do tiers where you get older tv shows and movies like on netflix for a cheaper price, more expensive price will get you current tv shows and movies. They also desperately need subtitle and language options on their catalog.

http://allthingsd.com/20120112/what-kind-of-web-video-plans-does-sony-have-video/

On the subject of PS3 super slim, is it possible that just the 16GB won't have wireless n to keep price as low as possible and the higher storage units will have it? I'm kind of interested in replacing my fat but wireless n would be much wanted.
 
The streaming stuff is interesting. Earlier this year SEN President Tim Shaaff was asked about subscription service (like netflix) instead of transaction service (PPV like PSN Video now). Said he wasn't ready to talk about it, but they are looking at all kinds of business models. I definitely think a subscription like service is coming to sen sooner or later, the question is whether or not it'll have movies and tv shows that people want instead of just old movies like netflix. They might do tiers where you get older tv shows and movies like on netflix for a cheaper price, more expensive price will get you current tv shows and movies. They also desperately need subtitle and language options on their catalog.

http://allthingsd.com/20120112/what-kind-of-web-video-plans-does-sony-have-video/

On the subject of PS3 super slim, is it possible that just the 16GB won't have wireless n to keep price as low as possible and the higher storage units will have it? I'm kind of interested in replacing my fat but wireless n would be much wanted.
The antenna in the Slim models is MUCH MUCH better than the fat and G works properly at longer range than "N" at least in my sisters house. I tried both N (access point) and G in the PS3 and the most consistent connection was with G. Point 2, with N and G there are two separate transmitters and receivers as G and N use different frequencies. This adds to cost and adds a delay as Blu-tooth, G and N would all timeslice/share time transmitting and syncing up to receive.

Interesting article and yes I expect it's coming as well as UltraViolet movie serving. This has been planned since 2010 and we have been wondering why it's been delayed.

The Xbox 720 powerpoint was a fill in the blanks for Sony ecosystem plans also.
 
OnLive Inc., a provider of Internet-based video games, said Friday its assets have been acquired by an unnamed entity that will hire some existing employees, capping speculation that the closely-held firm had run aground.

"The assets of OnLive Inc. have been acquired into a newly-formed company and is backed by substantial funding," an OnLive spokeswoman said in a statement, adding that the Palo Alto, Calif. company will continue to operate its game services.
The identity of the acquiring firm was not immediately clear. The acquirer will be "hiring a large percentage of OnLive Inc.'s staff across all departments," the spokeswoman said.
The spokeswoman, Jane Anderson, declined further comment.

OnLive Chief Executive Steve Perlman launched OnLive in 2010, after a career that has included stints at Apple Inc. (AAPL) and Microsoft Corp. (MSFT)

The company set itself apart from traditional video game firms by streaming games from its own computer servers to players logging in on the Internet.
OnLive investors include Time Warner Inc. (TWX) and Maverick Capital.
An OnLive rival, Gaikai, was sold to Sony Corp. (SNE) last month for $380 million.

Interesting, Sony bought Gaikai and the Xbox 720 powerpoint leak had Microsoft buying OnLive.
 

Mit-

Member
What about the upcoming Assassin's creed bundle? 320GB regular slim with AC3. Do you guys think they'll change the model, even though it already has boxart and has been available for pre-order for months now?

It makes me skeptical that we'll see the super slim anytime soon. Why bother with the AC3 bundle? It'll likely be overpriced/undesirable by then if a new model comes out.
 
This is interesting July 2011 E3 rumors:

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/07/07/e3_rumors_on_next_generation_console_hardware said:
there were still a lot of people out and about from the gaming industry that were willing to talk. We had a few "operatives" that were working with HardOCP to mine information. Of course we are not big on console gaming at HardOCP, but certainly all that console hardware does in fact impact the PC gaming industry as well as the PC hardware industry. These reports should be very much considered rumors, but we will not throw all of these into the same classification as far as plausibility. Some have more bite than others and certainly not all these rumors are fully baked. What is true today, might not be true in 6 months, or even 6 weeks.

It is highly likely that Microsoft's 3rd generation Xbox will be sporting a new IBM cell processor as well although it is slightly, ever so slightly possible, that this could change. It recent public statements Microsoft has also led us to believe that it may delay plans for the next generation Xbox for a an additional year or two due to the success of Kinect.

Looking towards the Sony PS4, we hear it is still unsettled between some kind of Bulldozer (would most likely be an APU) variant and a newer updated 32nm IBM cell processor. This one appears to have flip flopped back and forth a few times but it will likely firm up very soon.
Both Microsoft and Sony had decided on AMD GPU and X86 processors for PS4 and Xbox 720 by late 2010 (This only from one post which seems to be believable). So the 2011 flip flopping and Microsoft as well as Sony having a 32nm Cell processor (1PPU4SPU) had to be for BC and/or PS3-Xbox 360 refresh.

June 2011 E3 with the above published July 7 2011 was about the same time the Digitimes PS4 rumor (July 4) and microsoft-sony.com domain registration (by July 15) occurred.
 
The streaming stuff is interesting. Earlier this year SEN President Tim Shaaff was asked about subscription service (like netflix) instead of transaction service (PPV like PSN Video now). Said he wasn't ready to talk about it, but they are looking at all kinds of business models. I definitely think a subscription like service is coming to sen sooner or later, the question is whether or not it'll have movies and tv shows that people want instead of just old movies like netflix. They might do tiers where you get older tv shows and movies like on netflix for a cheaper price, more expensive price will get you current tv shows and movies. They also desperately need subtitle and language options on their catalog.

http://allthingsd.com/20120112/what-kind-of-web-video-plans-does-sony-have-video/

On the subject of PS3 super slim, is it possible that just the 16GB won't have wireless n to keep price as low as possible and the higher storage units will have it? I'm kind of interested in replacing my fat but wireless n would be much wanted.

Lord, if I can get Video Unlimited on a monthly subscription...
 

CorrisD

badchoiceboobies
So now we have:

1) inventory of older PS3s too high
2) “Well, we had so much to talk about on the software side, and that’s all we wanted to talk about.”

What's to talk about? We already had a Slim so a Super slim shouldn't be much different; right? Or there are differences and new features? But the Technoblog pictures confirm no external difference and they are accurate; right? Just does not make sense for just a cheaper PS3 refresh.

Makes perfect sense to me, if the original rumour that their inventory is too high to throw out a new model then they aren't going to come out and say that are they? They want to sell off the PS3s they are sitting on without having to reduce their price before a new model comes out.
 
If the newer hardware has no new feature and in fact has LESS with a flip lid Blu-ray drive not front load then what reason would anyone have to buy the new one over the old one?
I think you're ignoring the mindset of the average consumer here. New=Better to most people regardless of the actual differences. Business 101: don't announce a new product if you want to get rid of an old one, again remembering that the majority of consumers have no idea what 32nm means.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
If this is true they are going to hurt themselves if it doesnt come out for this christmas.

they'll wait as long as possible but still release for the Holiday market. Perhaps they wanted to launch earlier but have shipped stock waiting to sell through. Even if it means shifting some 'special bundles' of older kit, they'll want the cheaper model on the shelves for Christmas.
 
I think you're ignoring the mindset of the average consumer here. New=Better to most people regardless of the actual differences. Business 101: don't announce a new product if you want to get rid of an old one, again remembering that the majority of consumers have no idea what 32nm means.
Yeah I thought of that and then imagined a scenario where the 3000 and 4000 are sitting side by side and the customer asks the merchant what the differences are between the two and he tells them:

Assuming I'm wrong and the only difference is weight and flip top lid drive, he says; "really nothing except size and the older model has a more expensive front loader which could keep children from damaging the delicate optics of the drive. It also has felt at the disk opening to clean dust off the disk and to keep the internal laser and lens free of dust. He then goes on to say the newer model is cheaper. Customer asks how it can be cheaper, answer; shipping weight and the disk drive. How much cheaper $25. Hmmmm, I'll buy the more expensive model as I have children and lots of dust.

By the way, smaller could mean faster fan speeds and more noise if there is no die size reduction for Cell and RSX which many here are saying will be the case. There certainly is no research on reducing Cell BE to 32nm by IBM so that supports them. Only if I'm correct and Cell BE changed to two 1PPU4SPU packages with some or all the rest I've predicted will there be a die size reduction to 32nm. I.E. the project mentioned last page for Microsoft as an international project is for both PS3 and Xbox 360 identical core silicon for the SOC.
 
http://www.psu.com/a016631/PS3-is-in-prime-time-say-Sony-Worldwide-Studios-boss

“PS3 is I think in prime time,” Yoshida-san told Eurogamer. “It’s a great time for consumers to look at purchasing PS3 this year. There are a variety of games coming out and new and exciting games coming out next year.”

“At the same time the library of games we are able to offer at a very affordable price – we just announced the Essentials line in Europe. So, for the budget conscious consumer it’s a perfect new platform to join this Christmas.”

It’s not just new adopters who have reason to get excited either. The executive pointed to a number of upcoming heavy hitters such as Naughty Dog’s The Last of Us and Quantic Dream’s Beyond: Two Souls as a reason for long-time owners to sit up and take notice.

“For people who own PS3, rest assured new content is still coming,” he said. “Games like Last of Us and Beyond look amazing compared to early PS3 titles. There’s still something surprising happening on the platform.”

Still, Yoshida-san remained tight-lipped when quizzed on the long-rumored PS3 super slim. “That’s a rumor,” he said. “There are lots of different kinds of rumors on the internet.”

Indeed there are, Mr. Yoshida – and the latest point to a Tokyo Game Show reveal for the PS3-4000.
Stay tuned.
 
No pressure on Sony to reduce price from Microsoft:

EEDAR's Jesse Divnich concurs. "I don't believe an Xbox 360 price cut is imminent. The Xbox 360 hardware still leads in sales and I do doubt whether we even see a price cut at all in 2012. However, we should expect a holiday season full of discounted and limited edition bundles that, on paper, would reflect a price cut. But a full price cut on the base hardware, I wouldn't expect one until early 2013."
This is I think also Sony's plan. I expect a PS3 4000 chassis bundled with a Depth camera for the same as the current price of a PS3 without camera. The idea is to get a full package that can support Augmented Reality and Casual control of the XTV features coming in both the PS3 and Xbox 360 in Consumer hands so they can buy the many new casual games this holiday season.

"I think there will definitely be some interesting bundles this holiday season. I'll go out on a limb as far as the Kinect MSRP cut goes. It's been rumoured that Kinect 2 will arrive with the Windows 8 launch at the end of October. It's possible that Microsoft is clearing the channel in preparation of this (potential) new arrival."

"If Kinect 2 does arrive this holiday season I'm sure they'll put it in a bundle and there will have to be a few marquis games that use it in interesting ways. That's a tall order, though, and if they've been able to keep it quiet to this point that would be a stunning feat!"
Kinect 2 before the Xbox 720 launch and with finger recognition indicating a higher res camera? I thought that was limited due to memory and the USB2 port. Xbox 361 and PS3.5 feature or something new with software/hardware?
 
If rumors are to be believed, Apple may be getting back into the console game market with a help from Valve, according to the Cult of Mac website.

The Apple-centric news site reports that Apple CEO, Tim Cook, visited the Bellevue, Washington headquarters of Valve. According to the site, Apple is preparing a TV set for release later this year that “will come with an Apple-branded, Kinect-like video game console.” According to reports, the system will rely on motion and touch controls, possibly through a touch screen remote that will come with the TV.

This follows rumors that Valve is working on hardware of their own. Valve posted a job listing for an electronics engineer to join its hardware team to create “whole new gaming experiences.” Valve also stated they are investigating the field of wearable computing augmented reality.

This would not be the first attempt by Apple to enter into the video game console market. Apple teamed with Bandai in 1995 to launch ‘Pippin,’ a multimedia console based on the Macintosh operating system that also allowed access to the internet. The system did not do so well.
So low power game hardware viable for Casual and XTV but not serious games?

The pressure is on as it appears everyone will have cameras, Skype (or something similar) and Kinect Like motion controls in 2013.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
They'll have to reduce price soon, otherwise there is no space for the next gen consoles and we'll be at $599 again. I guess if they think they could manage through Christmas without a price cut they take the extra money though.
 
They'll have to reduce price soon, otherwise there is no space for the next gen consoles and we'll be at $599 again. I guess if they think they could manage through Christmas without a price cut they take the extra money though.
I have to laugh, you are exactly correct. This refresh (PS3 4000) has to provide enough cost reductions so that there is a significant price separation between PS3 and PS4 by PS4 launch late 2013 or early 2014; same for the Xbox 360 refresh. There shouldn't be another refresh before next generation launches.

So either next generation is going to be expensive as you pointed out or there is room in the PS3 4000 for serious price reductions. This would support a one chip CPU-GPU in the PS3 4000 which the motherboard footprint tends to indicate.

Thanks for pointing that out.

There are rumors of a Kinect 2 being launched by Oct of this year. This is highly unlikely unless it's a Kinect 1.5 as Kinect 2 in the Xbox 720 powerpoint had two cameras and 3-D which can't be supported by a USB 2.0. Possible only if my speculation is correct. It's more likely a single camera depth camera with some pre-processing in the camera. There is a Sony patent for overlaying hi-res recognition over a low res image. High res Edge detect then compressed? Tiling with chosen areas in high resolution?

The picture here looks like that technology: Right side pic is low res recognition but left side has fingers recognized in High Resolution.

screenshot_30641_thumb_wide940.jpg
 
I'd seen an older version of this patent and have posted it on NeoGAF. onQ123 brought it to my attention again and I didn't think it was any different but its been updated with more examples or the older on-line version I saw was abbreviated. I suggest looking through the diagrams/examples...very interesting.

Interactive commercials http://gamenmotion.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/patent-sony-wants-to-convert-tv.html

Voice recognition, gesture and Move used. This a portion of what Smart TV and XTV is bringing. This was filed Oct 2010 and published 8/21/2012. Published now means to me that it's coming soon or talks are on-going now to implement this.

Look through the examples, one has the ability to order Domino's Pizza from a Link included in the Commercial.

Supports XTV launching soon. Xbox 720 powerpoint (9/24//2010) has the Xbox 361 with HDMI Pass-thru and 1080P (XTV support) launching 2012 holiday season to support this. Both Consoles will have browsers for the first time ever this holiday season. This has been provably planned for since 2010 (See patent date for Sony above 10/23/2010 and Xbox Powerpoint date 9/24/2010 within 30 days of each other) and most likely MUCH earlier. Skype, motion recognition, Voice recognition, Browser, Augmented Reality, Move all in place for September 28th of this year (In Khronos PDF as starting Sept with Browser Libraries leveraged to provide AR support.

So what are the odds of work on a Sony patent and filing being 30 days after a powerpoint presentation by Microsoft on the same XTV. Both had to be developing the same at the same time. This is going to be a revolution with 800 million new Internet connected homes over the next 6 years.

The partners the Xbox 720 powerpoint was being presented to were probably the same as in the Sony patent. Fox, NBC, ABC, CBS.....

HDMI pass-thru with overlay and interception of XTV data in the video stream. See drawings that show the information stream in a line of video data. For this patent to be possible the PS3 MUST have HDMI pass-thru to intercept the data stream!!!!!!!!!!

100% both Microsoft and Sony planned in 2010 for both 2012 game console refreshes to have HDMI pass-thru with overlay, Interception of the XTV data stream and low power modes.

Given the following:

1) microsoft-sony.com
2) digitimes PS4 rumor (Must be a PS3 that was confused with a PS4)
3) Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint document from 9/2010 which has the Xbox 361 coming this 2012 season. IF Oban 12/2011 then 9/2010 was after it was in the pipeline to be produced.
4) Khronos Openmax 1.2 (Supports Gstreamer-openmax and camera, second Khronos Pdf mentioning Augmented Reality starting Sept 2012 leveraging the browser libraries
5) EPA Gold Star third tier rating for game consoles
6) Sony 2010 1PPU4SPU patent
7) Elizabeth Gerhard's Projects (IBM employee) and an International project involving the Xbox 360 @ 32nm and NO design work for a PS3 refresh at 32nm
8) Oban = large blank Japanese Coin => Is Oban for both the PS3 and Xbox 361 (Microsoft making the chip for Sony using 1PPU3SPU CPU packages instead of just PPUs )
9) Both having browsers at the same time for the first time ever and both have a refresh at the same time for the first time ever
10) Sony depth camera patent (Timing, 9/2011 & again 2/2012)
11) This patent and the timing in both filing and publishing XTV game support.
12) ATSC 2.0 *-* starts May 2012 thru 1st quarter 2013. *-* h.265 published for use Jan 2013. *-* Sony Nasne *-* RVU support for the PS3 announced by Verizon and Direct TV
13) Both ps3 and Xbox 360 refresh must have a price reduction built in to allow a price reduction when the PS4 and Xbox 720 are released. This is already possible for the Xbox 360 but the PS3 would NEED a massive redesign to put both CPU and GPU on the same silicon.


It's almost certain that the PS3 4000 chassis has HDMI pass-thru and uses the same SoC silicon as the Xbox 361. The PS3 4000 series and Xbox 361 will disrupt sales of older models! 20 million PS3 4000 chassis can be easily sold the first year. This makes the Digitimes PS4 rumor spot on for a PS3 4000.

The other way this can be done is with a external TV tuner to Home network and PS3 connected to that.

08246454-001+small.jpg
 
Brought over from the PS4 thread
No I don't think the PS3 refresh would have an hdmi passthrough as there was no sign of it in the pictures we saw.
Valid point and my speculation is only possible if the pictures are fake. There were two points I made about the pictures no one has answered. Sony does not use white or paper labels, it's plastic matching the case color (grey) with black writing and TINY, attempting to almost hide the label. I could be wrong here as I've only seen a few Sony models. My camera is the same. Also the Far pictures of the case do not show the label as seen in the closeup. As you noticed, there is no picture of the right side of the case which would be in a profession link with all sides of the PS3 4000 chassis. Several people have called it an obvious photoshop.

I do hope next generation machines will be more efficient when running non-game tasks in the future, as one of the Californian things was proposing. (Can't find it now, but the 2014 numbers were something like 70watts for a paused state, 50watts for multimedia, not much below what the latest PS3 draws now.)
From the Xbox 720 powerpoint

Multiple Power States
Full Power
Media Playback
Idle
Streaming (I assume DVR background and HDMI pass-thru standby)
Standby

Energy Star EPA sponsored Voluntary compliance standards Three tiers starting with tier 1 2010

Notice the third tier of Game Console Energy Star specs went into effect July 1 2012. FCC filing for the PS3 4000 chassis July 2012.

Scope Revision

• Stakeholders commented that earlier models may not meet performance requirements
• EPA proposes that game consoles brought to market prior to January 1, 2011 are excluded from the scope of the performance requirements

Stakeholders (game console manufacturers that are part of the Energy Star rating system) commented that earlier models may not meet performance requirements. This means there was a consensus arrived at for newer models and they all complied. Only if Sony is voluntarily a member "stakeholder" would this apply to the PS3 4000 chassis. There are only 3 game console platforms, we know WiiU should comply and the wording is plural. Sill doesn't confirm the PS3 4000 chassis but either PS3, Xbox 360 or both.

Tier 3 standards Game Console Energy Star Requirements
Auto power off
Standby power .5W
Active navigation menu 35W
Active streaming Media 45W

The PS3 3000 chassis consumes
Standby .5W
Active Navigation Menu 61 watts
Playing game 72-79 watts

Xbox 360S Valhalla
Standby
67 watts at the dashboard
80 watts while gaming.

Both Xbox 360 and PS3 would have to drop from about 60 watts to 35 watts for Active Navigation Menu. That is a dramatic drop that would require a total redesign with GPU Zero power (AMD's Zero power for GPU is 5 watts and only supported by a more modern GPU than in the Xbox 360S and for sure RSX) and a partial shutdown of some of the CPUs (Cell can't partially shutdown but individual 1PPU3SPU CPU packages could).

For the first time (Couldn't comply with second tier and were exempted " game consoles brought to market prior to January 1, 2011 are excluded from the scope of the performance requirements") we might see the PS3 4000 chassis comply with Energy Star for game consoles. Since we are going to see the Xbox 361 and PS3 4000 chassis sold to casual gamers and XTV-IPTV users, Energy Star would be a sales necessity or rather not being Energy Star rated when WiiU complies would be a serious disadvantage.

For the Xbox 361 I believe coming this season, HDMI pass-thru already implies power modes but those multi-media "Set Top Box" power modes were exempted by request from stakeholders; reasoning was the multiple features made a "standard" for power draw too difficult to calculate. With hardware that can comply with Energy Star Tier 3 low power modes it should also be possible to support low power modes for HDMI pass-thru.

The 16 gig Flash drive in the PS3 4000 chassis and rumored in the PS4 is too large for a special place for patches.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38657020&postcount=1 said:
In total, during the launch two PlayStation 4 are available, both are only equipped with a hard drive larger than 320GB. In terms of bundles, there are no concrete plans at Sony. What the exact difference between the two we do not know, but this is probably just the hard drive size. Also, the PS4 will have a special place for patches, OS etc. this is stored on an internal 16 GB of flash storage. just a "special place for patches".
I suspect that it's used as a cache for the OS and background tasks to allow the Hard Disk to sleep reducing power during; "Active navigation menu 35W".

The above is another point, both PS4 and PS3 4000 chassis have 16 gig SSD memory which is mentioned as part of AMDs building blocks to be included in SoCs. This would be necessasary as mentioned above to comply with Energy Star power modes, the OS would have to manage this turning on and off the hard disk as needed.
 
(Copy of an email)

The whole point which I'm sure you remember/understand is that to support low power modes required in 18 months by California or voluntarily required for Energy star the same month the PS3 4000 chassis passed the FCC (July 2012) or implied by HDMI pass-thru in the Xbox 361, you need a more modern GPU and CPU design as well as support chips that always power memory but at a slower clock speed and a SSD cache with OS management of a HardDisk sleep mode. With a more modern GPU, CPU (PPU) and different support chips a hardware emulation like in the XBOX 360S is not possible, it will be necessary to software emulate the Xbox. Custom support chips and GPU I think will be more expensive in the short term than emulation and for sure long term (Sony and Microsoft sharing R&D costs on a new Xbox 361 and PS3 4000 chassis for 32nm is not the end. Each succesive refresh at a smaller node size would be riding on AMD R&D for the GPU and support chips keeping the costs down. This allows a longer life and ever cheaper Xbox 360 and PS3.).

If you think of both the Xbox 360 and PS3 as having two OS or two partitions with different OS; Game side and Application side, it makes it easier to explain. The Dashboard for the Xbox 360 (browser desktop confirmed by Microsoft) and the PS3 XMB (browser desktop speculated) are totally separate from game side and neither Sony or Microsoft have allowed any third party applications other than browser applications. So emulation with only tier one Energy Star support will be needed for game side and Dashboard/XMB side will need tier three Energy star support but no emulation needed.

This finally explains Mono/PS Suite/Playstation Mobile indecision as to support for the PS3 as it would be running on the XMB side of the PS3 and will not be able to run on older PS3 (Mono is available for older PS3s gameside) and newer PS3 without the engine being totally rewritten for the PS3 4000 with more hooks into the OS which has auto standby/sleep modes that will need to be supported. Why spend the money to do this when WebMAF HTML5 applications will be running on a Browser desktop PS3 javascript engine. Short term what the Playstation Mobile Mono engine and game engines are supporting on Android platforms are already available on the PS3 except for applications which Sony has been working on for a year now as HTML5 browser desktop applications not Playstation Mobile. Long term the HTML5 route is the way to go. And yes it's my opinion that the PS3 XMB will be totally rewritten. XMB style may remain but all applications will be replaced with newer versions. For instance there is no reason for the Youtube app to be 22 megs in size with a browser desktop. It is a temporary version that includes much of what will be natively supported.

SSD cache in the PS3 4000 also supports what was speculated for the PS3 game side, a Hard disk swap of preselected memory to swap in and out Browser support for game side. Browser native library support is leveraged for multiple new (shown at trade shows) features for the PS3. Again, the PS3 browser does not have to run in PS3 emulation mode even if it's shown/seen inside a game.

I believe every effort is being made by Microsoft and Sony to not disrupt their game consoles with the new models. For instance the SSD cache is just faster than a HD cache and Microsoft in the Xbox 720 powerpoint mentioned supporting the HD Homerun tuner when the Xbox 361 with HDMI pass-thru is released. If one has clear digital Cable or over the air digital signal then the HD homerun can be used as the tuner and the Xbox 360 can provide the same features in the Xbox 361 using just software. Sony has their two DVR boxes and blu-ray players that can perform the same function. The problem is scrambled Cable TV (Requires HDMI Pass-thru) but Xfinity and others are working with Microsoft. For XTV to take off it must be supported by a large number of Smart TVs or with set-top boxes like game consoles.

Emulating the PS3 game side is going to require a more efficient PPU and slightly faster SPU as well as more memory. This is mentioned in the Sony 2010 patent which has 1PPU4SPU CPU packages as examples, "the PPU was redesigned from the ground up with a FO4 matching more closely the SPU" (means less latency/faster at the same clock speed and it was worded as past tense). So XMB Application Side on the PS3 4000 and Xbox 361 should have access to more memory and faster CPUs. My guess is 1 gig of very fast unified memory. Nearly everything supported on the newer platforms will be supported on the older just possibly slower using virtual memory not actual memory or SSD. It will be the speculated PS3.5 and Xbox 365. Take an A6 AMD Fusion design (SOI at 32nm) and subsitiute two 1PPU4SPU CPU packages for the 4 X86 CPU packages and downscale the GPU. Possilby add IBM eDRAM on the SOI silicon as L3 cache.

Since both will have to emulate their respective consoles and the support chips/GPU are from AMD, all except the SPUs in the PS3 should be identical between Xbox 361 and PS3 4000 chassis, just adding SPUs to the Xbox 361 Silicon should allow the same SoC to emulate a PS3. =>> Microsoft-Sony.com - Sony 1PPU4SPU - Digitimes PS4 rumor must be a PS3 with Kinect like interface. This speculation requires both Microsoft and Sony are going AMD CPU-GPU for next generation and BC will be supported by both with that code VERY similar to the emulation code in Xbox 361 and PS3 4000 chassis respectively using the same two 1PPU4SPU CPU packages in all 4 platforms.

The arguments against this are generally why would they spend money doing this for just power modes for a game console. The point missed is XTV-Augmented reality casual games and applications from the XMB side of the PS3 are the NEW market and BIG money maker for both Sony and Microsoft. The Xbox 720 powerpoint points this out multiple times, you just have to understand what it's saying. There will be 800 million new internet connected Homes added to the current 100 million in the next 6 years. They won't be buying new Smart TVs at thousands of dollars but will buy a Sub $200 game console that gives them the same features.

Next generation Xbox 720 and PS4 will be selling for $399 or more but will provide SERVER support for Xbox 360 and PS3 as well as handhelds allowing GaiKai like serving of PS4 and Xbox 720 games to handhelds and older console platforms (insures a longer life for for a cheaper older generation) as well as media.

As usual my speculation can't be proved till it happens. I usually rely on NeoGAF users to point out flaws in my arguments but I'm not being taken seriously by most and if there are developers with inside information they are NDA'd. As seen above, only Sony and Microsoft are working on desktop applications or are only allowing third party browser applications so no developer would have a need to know. Same for next generation if used for BC or OS features like voice recognition/gesture and a more advanced DirectX 12 or Ray tracing (Rumored FPGA to augment the GPU) which should show up a year or more after the next generation release not with games being developed now that don't have access to the 8000 GPU or FPGA I think coming with next generation SoCs but not now in developer platforms.

A alternate explanation for 16 gig SSD menory in all platforms (below) is possible if it's a more expensive SSD plug into the drive bay drive. Other wise a Sony letter states all have identical mother boards except for drives. So this could be my making an assumption. If the idea is to have a very inexpensive bottom end Flash drive it does not make sense to require a SATA interface as well as an external enclosure to allow plugging into a standard drive bay. Small SATA spinning platter drives are cheap and the savings would be on the order of $10 for a MUCH smaller SSD drive. So my assumtion is that it's on the mother board (cheaper) and all mother boards are identical. Allowing both OS cache and a small drive for users on this generation but not next as server features will need more OS and cache SSD memory.

The 16 gig Flash drive in the PS3 4000 chassis and rumored in the PS4 is too large for a special place for patches.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38657020&postcount=1 said:
In total, during the launch two PlayStation 4 are available, both are only equipped with a hard drive larger than 320GB. In terms of bundles, there are no concrete plans at Sony. What the exact difference between the two we do not know, but this is probably just the hard drive size. Also, the PS4 will have a special place for patches, OS etc. this is stored on an internal 16 GB of flash storage. just a "special place for patches".
I suspect that it's used as a cache for the OS and background tasks to allow the Hard Disk to sleep reducing power during; "Active navigation menu 35W".

The above is another point, both PS4 and PS3 4000 chassis have 16 gig SSD memory which is mentioned as part of AMDs building blocks to be included in SoCs. This would be necessasary as mentioned above to comply with Energy Star power modes, the OS would have to manage this turning on and off the hard disk as needed.

****************************

It appears I am being cited in other forums and the assumption was I was "called out" and had to defend my position. While that is true, it's more a matter of rehashing old arguments and adding as I find them, new support. I am taking this seriously but apparently other are not. On the SimiAccurate forum much more knowledgeable members have stepped up to support parts of my arguments with cites of their own. What I am stating above is entirely possible and is my best guess based on two years of "Google" research but it may not be true.... In any case parts of the arguments and cites are valuable in their own right. I'm putting my money where my mouth is as I've just purchased Sony stock in advance of the TGS announcement.

What I don't understand is that I've proved a Xbox 361 is coming but no news site has picked it up. Tie it to Oban @32nm discovered by Charlie at SimiAccurate and it's a pretty big story.

3) Xbox 720 powerpoint Xbox 361 if Oban 12/2011 was already in the pipeline when the powerpoint was made 9/2010

7) Elizabeth Gerhard's Projects (IBM employee) and an International project involving the Xbox 360 @ 32nm and NO design work for a PS3 refresh at 32nm
 
Long read. A lot of neat info. People will attack you, as you already know. And buying Sony stock is probably a good call, they've dropped so much, its hard to go down much farther.
 
Long read. A lot of neat info. People will attack you, as you already know. And buying Sony stock is probably a good call, they've dropped so much, its hard to go down much farther.

Something like this can be speculated with the (Charlie at SemiAccurate) Oban name for a PPC/AMD GPU made @32nm on SOI for Microsoft=> large Japanese oblong blank gold coin. Oban can either be that or a region in the UK or a Scotch named for that region. If it's a UK region then the naming convention adopted by "Liverpool" for the rumored PS4 SoC and Oban for the Microsoft chip implies a complete GPU and support chips AMD design with PPC processors like the AMD A6 but with PPC processors (32nm SOI also). At 32nm it's not the Xbox 720.

If Oban is named for a Japanese gold coin then that ties to the International project for the design of the Xbox 360 refresh at 32nm. International project Japan-US Sony-Microsoft.com

There is just allot less support for PS3 speculation than for Microsoft Xbox 361. PS3 emulation is going to MUCH harder than Xbox 360.

XTV starts Sept http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41562590&postcount=1355 & http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41619961&postcount=1368

ATSC 2.0 is now starting to be implemented. First part now seen locally in the US (Behind Europe with DVB) for over the air is non real time transmission (NRT). Then comes 1080P and 3-D using h.264 (by first quarter 2013) which cable and Satellite already support.

ATSC 2.0 descriptions and example screen shots (includes game Page 27 & 28) Also see another onQ123 thread on a Sony patent about playing games during commercials.

National Association of Broadcasters Powerpoint on Next Generation TV

Modern Smart TVs can receive and use ATSC 2.0 but most of the 1080P TVs and older 720P/1080i do not have the ability to support the h.264 codec. My best guess is Sony with their DVRs and Microsoft supporting HD Home Run tuners will support Xbox 361 and PS3 becoming a set top box to support ATSC 2.0. So for everyone who has a older TV, rather than buying a new "Smart TV" for over $1000 they can buy a Microsoft or Sony Game console to take advantage of ATSC 2.0 XTV. This is a huge opportunity to get into the living room I think was known. Both Microsoft and Sony will have a browser for the first time ever and both will have a refreshed game console for the first time ever at the same time.
 
In my area channel 66 ION is broadcasting ATSC 2.0 now

http://houstondtv.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/airbox-channels-now-transmitted-over-ion-stations/ said:
Trip Ericson has the answer to what is going on: a new subscription service called AirBox is transmitting several scrambled and unscrambled streams on subchannels of Ion stations nationwide. These streams are in MPEG4 format, so your current set won’t be able to decode them, even if your set can lock onto the subchannel.

The channels included are:
100 – Air Box 100
200 – TeleFormula
201 – CineMexicano
202 – LTNvela
203 – VideoRola
204 – Sorpresa
300 – Gol TV
400 – Starz
500 – qubo2, an unencrypted simulcast of qubo
501 – Life2, an unencrypted simulcast of IonLife


The over-the-air subscription service AirBox, broadcasting over subchannels of Ion stations across the nation, has turned on its website with details of its two packages.

Paquete Latino, for $10 a month, is the basic service level with five channels: TeleFórmula, Cine Méxicano, Pasiones, Sorpresa and GolTV.

Starz can be added for an additional $10 monthly.

The AirBox receivers retail for $99. The website lists a number of locations around Houston where the boxes will be available.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1374019/air-tv-as-found-on-select-ion-stations

525x525px-LL-d9021378_vbattach228411.png



1080P, 3-D and interactive TV like the Sony patent for playing games in commercials and the NBC screen shots showing the same in the PDF I linked.

What's been officially authorized two months ago is Non-Realtime-Transmission where files are transmitted and stored for later use. This can be a movie that uses a small sub band which takes hours to transmit rather than real time. It's sharing the 6mhz wide RF channel that transmits 19 million bits/sec and now using a more efficient codec h.264 which most TVs can't use.

By 1st quarter 2013 ATSC 2.0, h.264 and web based media, will require a new Smart TV or a set top box with the same features; it will need a browser, hard disk and support h.264 & most likely h.265 codecs (but not for real time transmission). It will need a digital tuner or a home network with a digital tuner connected to an over the air antenna. If it is a EPA Gold star rated game console it should draw no more than 45 watts while streaming.

Cable channels are generally scrambled and you need a Cable box. Much of the interactive XTV that is coming to over the air ATSC 2.0 will also be seen on Cable and you would need HDMI pass-thru in a set top box or game console to access it.

This is the use for the Xbox 361 and driveless Xfinity $99 versions of the same core hardware and also Xbox 720 and PS4 which will support ATSC 3.0 the same way in 5 years in other countries and 6-8 years in limited markets in the US.

So would you throw away your 1080P TV and get a new smart TV or would you buy a Xbox 361 or PS3 4000 chassis that have HDMI pass-thru (guess for PS4) and can support ATSC 2.0 if you have a cable box or OTA digital tuner connected to a home network. With the OTA digital tuner an older PS3 can support ATSC 2.0 but some of the features can't be supported by older Xbox 360 consoles. Add to this that there will be competition for the Home ATSC 2.0 set top box seen with $99 Google TV boxes with HDMI pass-thru and the big advantage in a game console are; 1) it can also play games and 2) It has the power for good voice and gesture recognition and 3) It has a hard disk to support NRT.

Sony knowing (remember Sony and Microsoft were part of the group that helped set the ATSC 2.0 standards) that ATSC is going to be authorized/implemented late 2012 through first quarter 2013 would impact the design of the PS3 4000 chassis being released at the end of 2012. What should it have?

1) HDMI pass-thru
2) Complete redesign to comply with EPA Gold Star third tier Power modes also voluntarily required July 2012
3) a modern browser (Confirmed)
4) Skype or something like Skype
5) Voice recognition
6) Depth camera for more accurate gesture recognition.
7) Software to support an OTA digital tuner or accessories that do this connected to the home network (Confirmed Nasne)
8) Software similar to Google TV with ATSC 2.0 XTV extensions
9) DLNA/RVU/DTCP-IP software support (Confirmed)

Think of all the little Social features we didn't think added too much to the game consoles, they now make sense.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=41638674 said:
TORONTO — ViXS Systems Inc. today announces that the XCode 4210 powers Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (Tokyo: 6758; NYSE: SNE) PS3 networked recorder and media storage device called “Nasne™”. The XCode 4210 is a network media processor and transcoding single chip System on Chip (SoC). The Sony Nasne is the first product of its kind and a central addition to Sony’s strategy for the connected home. Nasne provides multiple users with the ability to watch and record digital terrestrial and satellite broadcast through dedicated applications such as “torne” for PlayStation3 (PS3 and “VAIO TV”. Users will also be able to access recorded content from their PlayStationVita (PS Vita), Sony Tablet, VAIO PCs, Xperia™ TVs or any other Digital Living Network Alliance DLNA Certified® TV, SmartPhone, Tablet or PC and stream this throughout the home.

Nasne represents the first step in Sony’s newly harmonized media business strategy. A PS3-lookalike Nasne is encased in a slick enclosure housing a 500 GB hard disk drive for external program recording and storage. Taking full advantage of ViXS’ dual HD transcoding capabilities on the XCode 4210, the Sony Nasne has the capability to concurrently stream stored video to two devices. With the first product launch in Japan the Sony Nasne also comes integrated with “G GUIDE TV OUKOKU CHAN-TORU,” a Japanese program guide service, which will enable scheduled recordings to be set remotely from Sony hardware.

Interfaces to Nasne include gigabit Ethernet, antenna input and output, a B-CAS card slot for security decryption, and a USB port for hooking up external drives to augment its internal hard disk drive capacity. Multiple Nasne units can also be supported by various Sony devices so as to boost the number of simultaneous recordings: the PS3 can handle up to four, with the “torne” app, while VAIO PCs for example could manage up to eight using the free “VAIO TV with Nasne” app.

“Since the launch of XCode 4210 in 2010 ViXS has remained at the forefront of the media processing technology curve” said Sally Daub. President and CEO, ViXS Systems Inc. “The XCode 4210 has continued to exceed industry expectations with its ground-breaking technical performance, level of integration and power efficient design. ViXS is delighted to be playing such a significant part in Sony’s latest connected home experience”.

The XCode 4210 single chip in the Sony Nasne products controls the following features:

Decode and display via HD satellite and terrestrial CAS-encrypted broadcasts
Display HDMI out
Ethernet networking
Internet codec transcoding
Advanced dual audio and video HD Transcoding
Streaming n-screen support
Rich 2D and 3D graphics user interface
Digital Rights Management (DRM) for content protection
Software stacks to support DLNA Certified®
System design within 4W power consumption budget

xcode4200_features_chip.jpg


XCODE 4200 SERIES FEATURES
XCode® 4210 integrates the following features:

Multi-Stream HD Decoding Engine
Dual-Channel 1080p30 Decode (MPEG2/H.264/VC-1)
Single-Channel 1080p60 Decode (MPEG2/H.264/VC-1)
Programmable Decode Engine for Other Internet based CODECs

Multi-Stream Video Encoding and Transcoding Engine
Dual-Channel HD to HD Transcode (MPEG2/H.264/VC-1)
Full Decode / Full Encode Transcode mode Implementation and Smart XCode.
mode Implementation
High Quality 1080p60 HD Transcode
Low-Latency Encode for wireless distribution within the home

Advanced Hosting
Multi-Core Architecture
Up to 2800 DMIPS

2D / 3D Graphic Engines
Full 3D Graphics Hardware engine with OpenGL ES 2.0 support
Full 2D Graphics Hardware engine with DirectFB support
Completely separate 2D and 3D Graphic Hardware engines for simultaneous
operation modes

Video Post Processing
Motion Adaptive De-Interlacer
Multiple Noise Reducers
Colour Management

Advanced Security Architecture
Supports advanced security requirements for operator networks
Integrates all major hardware crypto engines for support of major DRMs
Transcryption between multiple DRMs (eg. MSDRM, Microsoft Playready, Marlin, Safia, DTCP/IP, CPRM etc)

Wide Range of Peripherals
Multiple Integrated Peripherals
- Multiple 10/100/1G Ethernet ports
- Multiple USB ports
- Dual SATA ports
- HDMI 1.4a Transmitter w/HDCP
- Analog Video / Audio Outputs
- CCIR656/SMPTE274/296 inputs
- 6 TS in
- Smart Card Interface
- SD Card / MMC
- PCIe
- High Speed DDR3 memory controller
- NAND Flash Controller
Something like the above will be in the Xbox 720 and possibly PS4. It looks like this generation Sony can support ATSC 2.0 with the Nasne and a PS3, no HDMI pass-thru needed.

12) ATSC 2.0 *-* starts May 2012 thru 1st quarter 2013. *-* h.265 published for use Jan 2013. *-* Sony Nasne *-* RVU support for the PS3 announced by Verizon and Direct TV
 
From NeoGaf :
"i can confirm that in tgs the new ps3 model will be released.28/9 probably the first bundle with the 500gb hdd along with fifa 13 in europe.second bundle to be released later.you can quote me/thank me or ban me if it turn out to be wrong.cannot specify my source.can laugh at me also for being junior member or anything else.
tgs new ps3 model"

"the information is about selling the new ps3 bundle/game for 309 euros with the approprieta(sorry for the spelling) margin.no price drop is mentioned so i cant tell for sure.if i have any information about a price-drop i ll post asap.

the second bundle has uc3+gt5 with all the dlc(theyre called "special editions")"

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41813952&postcount=158
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41814200&postcount=161
September 28th is the 6 month Gnome cycle release date for a new version which GTKwebkit follows. Sony in the past has waited to release new OS Firmware updates till it's made "official". The 9/28 release date mentioned by this poster for the new PS3 seems reasonable. Announced at TGS and on sale with a new Firmware update for all PS3 models.
 
From NeoGaf :

September 28th is the 6 month Gnome cycle release date for a new version which GTKwebkit follows. Sony in the past has waited to release new OS Firmware updates till it's made "official". The 9/28 release date mentioned by this poster for the new PS3 seems reasonable. Announced at TGS and on sale with a new Firmware update for all PS3 models.

Damn, thats only a few days after TGS.
 
...o god damn it. I just bought a ps3 bundle today.


...should I return it to wait for the new models? What exactly do the new models bring to the table?
 

Bboy AJ

My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Finally I have a date. I'll be picking one up. I've been getting restless.

Do we know if the 16GB model will be any different, other than HDD size, from the 500 GB model?
 
Any specific reason? Will it be a noticable difference?

A bigger HDD (500gig) probably won't be enough to convince me to return the current one. I heard there isn't a price drop either.


So what exactly does the new ps3 bring beside being lighter and smaller?

We don't know exactly. =P

There are several things speculated, but nothing is concrete until Sony goes on stage on the 20...th?.. (too lazy to check which date they have their conference)
 
We don't know exactly. =P

There are several things speculated, but nothing is concrete until Sony goes on stage on the 20...th?.. (too lazy to check which date they have their conference)

Whats the speculations? I think I can hold onto a ps3 for 30 days before returning...and scumbag it @.@ but I would rather not.

If its minor I would like to keep the one I got. Less hassle and I really want to have a ps3 on my desk.
 
Whats the speculations? I think I can hold onto a ps3 for 30 days before returning...and scumbag it @.@ but I would rather not.

If its minor I would like to keep the one I got. Less hassle and I really want to have a ps3 on my desk.
As phosphor112 said we don't know and the Technoblog pictures, which I think are fake, would point to little difference except 1.1 pounds lighter and a cheaper blu-ray drive, that's the popular opinion.

There are multiple points of information that support features not in the current PS3s.

1) Power modes and EPA Goldstar rating
2) Kinect like interface for a depth camera (Digitimes PS4 rumor and Sony publishing a depth camera patent)
3) HDMI pass-thru (leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint Xbox 361 for ATSC 2.0 XTV so Sony might do the same. NASNE can support ATSC 2.0 and cable XTV better so this is not locked)

# 1 above is the big one as it means the 16 gig flash drive is in all PS3 4000 chassis and used for the OS and swapping the HTML5 stack in and out of memory. The PS4 appears to have a 16 gig SSD flash also for the same reason (allows the Hard Disk to sleep reducing power at the Menu screen).

Read the posts on the page above you!

Sony knowing (remember Sony and Microsoft were part of the group that helped set the ATSC 2.0 standards) that ATSC is going to be authorized/implemented late 2012 through first quarter 2013 would impact the design of the PS3 4000 chassis being released at the end of 2012.

Sony Media Fusion proposal http://www.atsc.org/cms/pdf/pt2/Naohisa-Kitazato-Next-Generation-Broadcast.pdf

Broadcasters Perspective on ATSC 2.0 http://www.ieee-bmsb2012.org/images/program/BMSB2012_Keynote_3_Connected_TV_Chernock.pdf

What should it have?

1) HDMI pass-thru
2) Complete redesign to comply with EPA Gold Star third tier Power modes also voluntarily required July 2012
3) a modern browser (Confirmed)
4) Skype or something like Skype
5) Voice recognition
6) Depth camera for more accurate gesture recognition.
7) Software to support an OTA digital tuner or accessories that do this connected to the home network (Confirmed Nasne)
8) Software similar to Google TV with ATSC 2.0 XTV extensions
9) DLNA/RVU/DTCP-IP software support (Confirmed)
 
Any specific reason? Will it be a noticable difference?

A bigger HDD (500gig) probably won't be enough to convince me to return the current one. I heard there isn't a price drop either.

So what exactly does the new ps3 bring beside being lighter and smaller?

Nothing confirmed. Don't expect anything major.
 
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