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Media Create Sales: Week 10, 2013 (Mar 04 - Mar 10)

N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Bladenic said:
Is Tecmo Koei really in the same league as NI? I know they aren't AAA developers but don't their games sell really well in Japan and they have a few WW franchises (DoA and NG, although I have no idea how the latest games in those series did).
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Tecmo Koei has developed titles that have sold over a million copies before, so I agree they're in a notably different tier, but I didn't make the original example here.

I'm just using Jamix012's argument as an example mostly though which is why I'm not naming him/not trying to call him out directly, since this isn't an argument uniquely made by him, but is the most recent one I can remember.

I guess they do serve as an example of a developer who tries to look at least fairly good on their system though relative to say the standards of Nippon Ichi, so they would potentially be more impacted. Though obviously they're not trying to match/look better than the latest God of War game.
 
P

pieatorium

Member
Nirolak said:
Tecmo Koei has developed titles that have sold over a million copies before, so I agree they're in a notably different tier, but I didn't make the original example here.

I'm just using Jamix012's argument as an example mostly though which is why I'm not naming him, since this isn't an argument uniquely made by him, but is the most recent one I can remember.
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Yeah someone else was making a similar argument that Vita development was inherently more expensive than 3DS because of the hardware gap.
 
ArtHands

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Maedhros said:
These things doesn't matter for a new IP and the japanese public.

Only desilusional would see a single game as system savior.
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Its' the vita's last bet though, and sony has throw everything they have got here (price cut etc), so its not really surprising to see people take it as the system savior.
 
D

donny2112

Member
Nirolak said:
I'm just using Jamix012's argument as an example mostly though which is why I'm not naming him/not trying to call him out directly, since this isn't an argument uniquely made by him, but is the most recent one I can remember.
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So if a publisher is targeting Japan, the tech is almost meaningless, at this point, since they won't be pushing anything major, regardless. Therefore any system is fair game from a technical sense, since their dev costs will probably only vary slightly between platforms. Then it just becomes a question of where is most of their audience congregating around.

That sort of cover it?
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
donny2112 said:
So if a publisher is targeting Japan, the tech is almost meaningless, at this point, since they won't be pushing anything major, regardless. Therefore any system is fair game from a technical sense, since their dev costs will probably only vary slightly between platforms. Then it just becomes a question of where is most of their audience congregating around.

That sort of cover it?
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Yeah. I think that's also what helped really harm the Vita if we look at the lower end of the scale, since there's not much the Vita does that the 3DS doesn't that's relevant to the local handheld market.

Basically the PSP-PS2 range seems to work fine for the vast majority of Japanese consumers regardless of where they're playing.

There are obviously a few exceptions, especially in terms of specific series, but I don't think that really impacts most developers.
 
staticneuron

staticneuron

Member
AdventureRacing said:
You mean 360 got a few exclusives because MS went out and outright bought them? That's not the same as 3rd party devs banking on the 360.

Square is a terrible example. They announced FFXIII exclusively for the PS3 before launch didn't they? That move alone pretty much just left the 360 out to dry.
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Except they actually released games on the 360 that either didn't make it to the PS3 or were delayed on the platform then they ended up announcing a version of FFXIII for the 360's anyways. When looking at "support" it is hollow to look at the announcements and actually ignore products released.

Either way because of the way the last gen panned out, I highly doubt there will be the same type of scenario played out again. It simply seems like wasted effort in the end looking at the numbers. I really respect MS for trying.

Nirolak said:
Yeah. I think that's also what helped really harm the Vita if we look at the lower end of the scale, since there's not much the Vita does that the 3DS doesn't that's relevant to the local handheld market.
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I am really curious about this. Is there some sort of platform loyalty concept when making games for the japanese market. I did mention before that I didn't understand what happened with Capcom and MH series. Did they abandon the PSP for "potential" growth on the 3DS? What about the PSP base, do they expect the base to shift?
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
staticneuron said:
I am really curious about this. Is there some sort of platform loyalty concept when making games for the japanese market. I did mention before that I didn't understand what happened with Capcom and MH series. Did they abandon the PSP for "potential" growth on the 3DS? What about the PSP base, do they expect the base to shift?
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Well, it comes down to a couple of factors.

1.) Monster Hunter is based around local co-op, so it is important that everyone is on the same platform.

2.) The 3DS can run Monster Hunter just fine.

3.) The 3DS was always likely to sell notably more than Vita, so there was a larger potential userbase.

4.) Monster Hunter is a large enough franchise that its audience is likely to buy the handheld platform it is on, as opposed to Monster Hunter being required to go on whatever platform its audience already owns.

Basically they saw an opportunity for growth by going with the 3DS instead of the Vita, and felt their audience would follow, yes. It's possible Nintendo gave them money, but that would just be Capcom milking Nintendo for money over a decision Capcom likely already made.
 
A

Akainu

Member
Nirolak said:
So within the past few weeks there was an argument made that the PlayStation 4 could cause higher developer costs for smaller developers to the point where companies like Tecmo Koei and Nippon Ichi could not afford to develop for the system.

I would like to submit Drakengard 3 as a counter argument that states the location of a game's target audience is most important determinant of platform, so even if the developer can't live up to the hardware of a platform, they can still release a visually lower end game there: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=523710
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Hasn't this been what Nippon Ichi has been doing since the ps2?
 
A

airmangataosenai

Member
donny2112 said:
Yes, he was, and so are you. It was well-known that Microsoft was "incentivizing" heavier Japanese support in the early years to try to gain a foothold in the region. That's why 360 had the support it did.

Square had far from "abandoned" PS3 by announcing FFXIII and FFXIII Versus pre-PS3 launch for the system, and FFVII: Advent Children on Blu-Ray had a PS3 bundle with FFXIII demo in April 2009. They waited so long seemingly because they were waiting for the userbase to expand enough to support a mainline Final Fantasy. However, they also helped expand that base themselves with the multiple Final Fantasy XIII announcements and Advent Children bundle, all within the first three years in which you agree they "abandoned" PS3.

Edit:
As AdventureRacing already pointed out. :)
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At the beginning of this generation there was a massive push by Japanese developers to target the western audience, even with the money hats argument this played an important factor in these studios pushing the 360 and it backfired on them. Saying that they always supported the PS3 and always planned to is ridiculous when you compare the release lists from 2007-2008 from these studios, it shows that this being merely an issue with transitioning to HD doesn't hold up and that they were actively pushing support for one platform much harder than the other.

The fact that you name a demo attached to a movie release as the main support for those first three years is equally ridiculous, especially when you consider that the game was multiplatform anyway. Between the PS3 launch and the release of FF13, Square produced 4 titles for the 360 and zero for the PS3. To say that a DVD demo and a trailer constitutes considerable support compared to actual games is laughable.
 
J

Jonnyram

Member
Nirolak said:
Right, I mean the upper limit of a platform is only relevant to those who feel it's important for their business model to be near or hit that upper limit.

How many Japanese developers hit the top of the PS3, but can't afford to/wouldn't want to do so for the PS4?
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Well there will always be devs at the top of the pile that push technology forwards. But it's not without rewards for lower tier devs. Thanks to the extra power, there have been huge improvements in middleware now, so that a company with few staff, and not a huge amount of technical know-how, could produce a decent spec 3D game using Unity or similar. The PS4 moving to an x86 architecture should improve this matter even further. I mean, there's not a lot of middleware that supports Cell, for example.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
staticneuron said:
Except they actually released games on the 360 that either didn't make it to the PS3 or were delayed on the platform then they ended up announcing a version of FFXIII for the 360's anyways. When looking at "support" it is hollow to look at the announcements and actually ignore products released.
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No it isn't. FFXIII is a huge franchise and any support they gave to the 360 early on pales in comparison. Do you happen to remember when they made that announcement? The 360 was completely dead in Japan by that point so i don't see how that's relevant.
 
E

electroplankton

Banned
Sandfox said:
Given that Tales of Hearts didn't exactly sell well I wonder if Bamco still thinks its a good idea to release Tempest R? They probably chose to release it last because its going to be the one with the most changes but I can't see it selling much at all.
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I do hope Namco Bandai will realize how stupid their strategy was with Hearts R. It's going to sell less than Innocence R, which already was a flop. They should stick to those Radian Mythology shit.
 
O

Oersted

Member
staticneuron said:
Except they actually released games on the 360 that either didn't make it to the PS3 or were delayed on the platform then they ended up announcing a version of FFXIII for the 360's anyways. When looking at "support" it is hollow to look at the announcements and actually ignore products released.

Either way because of the way the last gen panned out, I highly doubt there will be the same type of scenario played out again. It simply seems like wasted effort in the end looking at the numbers. I really respect MS for trying.



I am really curious about this. Is there some sort of platform loyalty concept when making games for the japanese market. I did mention before that I didn't understand what happened with Capcom and MH series. Did they abandon the PSP for "potential" growth on the 3DS? What about the PSP base, do they expect the base to shift?
Click to expand...

They abandoned already the PS3 for Wii. Development costs has been the reasoning.
 
T

test_account

XP-39C²
Father_Brain said:
Big as in significant realistic potential of selling much over 100K? More likely than not. I don't see why Sony couldn't have announced anything at Vita Heaven 2 if they actually had anything up their sleeve, given that they went to the lengths of showing what appeared to be very early FFX footage just to reassure people it was still coming.
Click to expand...
Yeah, i was thinking maybe 100k+ sellers. I was not only thinking about 1st party, but 3rd party as well, and in a time period from after July to "forever:".

Final Fantasy X is a game that is already been done, who knows why it takes so long for Square Enix to make the HD release. Although i think maybe 2 persons worked on the Kingdom Hearts HD release, so maybe it is a similar case with FFX HD.
 
E

electroplankton

Banned
test_account said:
Yeah, i was thinking maybe 100k+ sellers. I was not only thinking about 1st party, but 3rd party as well, and in a time period from after July to "forever:".

Final Fantasy X is a game that is already been done, who knows why it takes so long for Square Enix to make the HD release. Although i think maybe 2 persons worked on the Kingdom Hearts HD release, so maybe it is a similar case with FFX HD.
Click to expand...

I do believe Final Fantasy X HD actually entered in development just few months ago. If after one year and a half they can just show polygonal models and that's all, it means they don't have much materials. It's not that Square Enix is not willing to show what they have, if any.
 
S

stryke

Member
electroplankton said:
I do believe Final Fantasy X HD actually entered in development just few months ago. If after one year and a half they can just show polygonal models and that's all, it means they don't have much materials. It's not that Square Enix is not willing to show what they have, if any.
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You'd think that, but then Versus and XIV reminds you how incompetent they really are.
 
M

michaelius

Banned
shinra-bansho said:
Who abandoned PS3 for Wii? Capcom? Just regarding Monster Hunter or in general. I don't see the latter and I thought distribution and advertising deals played into the former as well.
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I think it was sarcasm ;)

People said that devs will abandom HD consoles for Wii due to development cost increase.
 
E

electroplankton

Banned
stryke said:
You'd think that, but then Versus and XIV reminds you how incompetent they really are.
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Indeed. They're so incompetent that they announce games that they don't even start to develop :) problem is, FFX HD should not be something very challenging to develop. We already saw it's not even a full remake, but an HD version. Software houses usually take few months to develop them (look at Capcom).
 
O

Opiate

Member
shinra-bansho said:
I thought this was kind of obvious, tbh. I mean, it's not like Atelier or Disgaea games pushed the PS3 as far as I'm aware.

Presumably, if developers want to make lower visual quality games on the PS4 they can; while still reaping the benefits of real-time rendering replacing what used to be iterative processes to improve workflows.

Ergo, I've never really gotten the whole argument some put forward premised around improved hardware mandating high fidelity graphics and expensive production values. The marketplace and target audience are really what dictate the level of production values.
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It's interesting because that clearly isn't plausible in the US and EU. Partially because there is a more robust PC market in those countries (which soaks up a huge portion of the players who would be totally accepting of lower end production values), and partly because of how the console market has been shaped/marketed, it's very very difficult to sell a game which looks like a PS2 game on the PS3 in the US.

Japan seems more forgiving in these regards, as they are also more forgiving of handheld's natural graphical limitations.
 
M

michaelius

Banned
Opiate said:
It's interesting because that clearly isn't plausible in the US and EU. Partially because there is a more robust PC market in those countries, and partly because of how the console market has been shaped, it's very very difficult to sell a game which looks like a PS2 game on the PS3 in the US.

Japan seems more forgiving in these regards, as they are also more forgiving on handheld's natural graphical limitations.
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That's because publishers are asking 60$ for those games - look at Sniper Ghost warrior it started at half price of new title and went to sell 2 milions copies creating around 40 to 1 return of investment
 
O

Opiate

Member
michaelius said:
That's because publishers are asking 60$ for those games - look at Sniper Ghost warrior it started at half price of new title and went to sell 2 milions copies creating around 40 to 1 return of investment
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It's one of several problems. That is not the only explanation.

For a variety of reasons, the "core" console consumer in the US/EU has been significantly less tolerant of lower production values than their Japanese counterparts.
 
A

Aostia

El Capitan Todd
levitan said:
Some people insisted that he/she should bring THE TRUTH to "Sonyfans"...and then...
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Hahahah! Yes, that, but also the OBVIOUS monster hunter Vita incoming, and many other "media-create meme"! hahah!

Btw: Layton underperforming, we'll see if they'll close the series for real after this one.
 
L

Laguna

Banned
There was a misunderstanding because I´m not fluent with the language of the gutter. But sales numbers and the comparisons are still valid as much as it might hurt some fanboys.
 
P

PaulLFC

Member
Laguna said:
I know simple facts must hurt to some Sonyfans like you that want to celebrate mediocre sales (for a highly marketed game)/good sales for Vitas standards instead of having an honest discussion . I wasn´t even the first one to make a comparison with Bravely Default in this thread, also I don´t see any problem with it because both are new IPs and as much as it hurts you it´s just a fact that Soul Sacrifice sold less than the far less marketed Bravely Default.
Click to expand...
iqtP1VbcuXuTF.gif
 
L

levitan

Member
Laguna said:
There was a misunderstanding because I´m not fluent with the language of the gutter. But sales numbers and the comparisons are still valid as much as it might hurt some fanboys.
Click to expand...

Language of the gutter huh?

I hope this thread won't get derailed so far off that it get locked by next Wednesday...
 
A

Aostia

El Capitan Todd
michaelius said:
Aren't production values really low for those games ?

It should be printing money even with sales like that.
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probably, and for that they also have western sales. but my comment was referred to the fact that they stated that this one will be the last Prof Layton game, so I wonder if, with not outstanding sales, they'll keep their words and shut the brand down (otherwise I don't trust them about that sentence and I foresee a "Professor Luke" new trilogy)
 
B

big youth

Member
Aostia said:
probably, and for that they also have western sales. but my comment was referred to the fact that they stated that this one will be the last Prof Layton game, so I wonder if, with not outstanding sales, they'll keep their words and shut the brand down (otherwise I don't trust them about that sentence and I foresee a "Professor Luke" new trilogy)
Click to expand...

I don't follow this series but if you're referring to the ND, I think it was said that that game is the last in the timeline, not in the series. it just completes the second trilogy
 
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