• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Killzone Shadow Fall Multiplayer Impressions - PAX Prime

B

BleachAndPepsi

Banned
Horp said:
Ok. Listen. This was a multiplayer map from the game. Its not some old specfic demo they put together. And it was a showcase of the game to the world. If they pulled a miracle and upped performance by three times in high intensity scenes, they would wanna show THAT version. Get it? The game must be done within 1-1.5 months. We are talking last touches now. So they will have a version they can put up locked to one map. They dont need to, and wont, and wouldnt, and shouldnt pull out some 2 months old demo. Thats not how things work in this industry.
Click to expand...

Do you realize how demos are put together? From everything I've ever read, heard, or seen, they are generally vertical slices taken from a game months before display and worked on/polished for weeks/months to show off to the world. They are generally in no way representative of how a game will actually look or run. Which is why there are occasions where a section of the game shown in a demo doesn't even make it into the final game--while the team is polishing that section, the larger group working on the game have decided to remove that part and moved on.

But obviously the Killzone group is different and decided to just rip out a chunk of game code a couple days before the demo...

Edit: By the way, those "last touches" usually include fixing up the frame rate, correct? And don't give me this "they need to up the performance three times to reach 60fps." The demo isn't likely to have an FPS counter onscreen, so the OP is guessing at 20-60. He could be way off base.
 
H

Horp

Member
BleachAndPepsi said:
Do you realize how demos are put together? From everything I've ever read, heard, or seen, they are generally vertical slices taken from a game months before display and worked on/polished for weeks/months to show off to the world. They are generally in no way representative of how a game will actually look or run. Which is why there are occasions where a section of the game shown in a demo doesn't even make it into the final game--while the team is polishing that section, the larger group working on the game have decided to remove that part and moved on.

But obviously the Killzone group is different and decided to just rip out a chunk of game code a couple days before the demo...
Click to expand...
Thats how some demos are made, I guess. But 1.5 months from release you can make a demo from the close-to-final code. And also, and this is more important; Im a programmer myself and I know lots of people in the industry; people want to showcase the latest. The bestest. If you have done MAJOR improvements you will show that version. And in this case they know that framerate is a sensitive topic. they are showing their big title for everyone, if they have a waay more optimized framerate version, they will show THAT. Scripted single player demos are something different. Often with staging, faking and downsampling going on.

Edit:
No, last touches are very, very rarely big framerate increases. They are tweaking, balancing, bug testing bug testing bug testing. You're not gonna go reoptimize your rendering engine 1.5 m from release.
 
James Sawyer Ford

James Sawyer Ford

Member
Gurish said:
But we are not talking about the cell architecture,all the PS4 philosophy is about the ease of development,and GG is a very capable studio whose been working on this game for a relatively long time,RYSE for example gets nothing but good impressions and it's on a weaker system with supposedly less refined tools,FORZA as well.

I don't know,maybe i was expecting too much.



Haven't heard anything negative in particular about RYSE of FORZA regarding their technical merits,it's disappointing that sony's first party games doesn't sound too hot at the moment.
Click to expand...

People were just complaining about the jaggies in both titles last week at some Toronto event.
 
B

BleachAndPepsi

Banned
Horp said:
Thats how some demos are made, I guess. But 1.5 months from release you can make a demo from the close-to-final code. And also, and this is more important; Im a programmer myself and I know lots of people in the industry; people want to showcase the latest. The bestest. If you have done MAJOR improvements you will show that version. And in this case they know that framerate is a sensitive topic. they are showing their big title for everyone, if they have a waay more optimized framerate version, they will show THAT. Scripted single player demos are something different. Often with staging, faking and downsampling going on.
Click to expand...

So do you know that this demo is running the absolute latest code?

If not, my point stands. Discussing the merits is all well and good. Hell, even hoping for good frame rates. But to talk like "oh it's a disaster!" as some have, is just plain silly.
 
HORRORSHØW

HORRORSHØW

Member
Gurish said:
Haven't heard anything negative in particular about RYSE of FORZA regarding their technical merits,it's disappointing that sony's first party games doesn't sound too hot at the moment.
Click to expand...
Can we get some Ryse gifs in here? It seems you need to purview some more impressions about these games, especially Ryse.
 
H

Horp

Member
BleachAndPepsi said:
So do you know that this demo is running the absolute latest code?

If not, my point stands. Discussing the merits is all well and good. Hell, even hoping for good frame rates. But to talk like "oh it's a disaster!" as some have, is just plain silly.
Click to expand...
There is nothing silly about what Ive been saying. And i havent EVER said "oh its a disaster". Not even close.

Ive said that if you are seeing drops to 20 now you wont see stable 60 at release unless a miracle happens. And Im saying that based on my knowledge on the matter (writing rendering engines for example), and my experience on the matter (having been in the industry).
 
B

BleachAndPepsi

Banned
Horp said:
There is nothing silly about what Ive been saying. And i havent EVER said "oh its a disaster". Not even close.

Ive said that if you are seeing drops to 20 now you wont see stable 60 at release unless a miracle happens. And Im saying that based on my knowledge on the matter (writing rendering engines for example), and my experience on the matter (having been in the industry).
Click to expand...

First, I didn't start talking to you. You started talking to me. I'm not accusing you of reacting that way. I never did. I just said some folks in this thread have. Because they have.

And second, the 20fps appears to be a guess from the OP. Unless I'm missing some confirmation from GG.
 
B

BleachAndPepsi

Banned
Gurish said:
Haven't heard anything negative in particular about RYSE of FORZA regarding their technical merits,it's disappointing that sony's first party games doesn't sound too hot at the moment.
Click to expand...

You missed the Ryse glitch gifs? I'm surprised. They were everywhere for a while.

Edit: Dammit, double post.
 
H

Horp

Member
BleachAndPepsi said:
First, I didn't start talking to you. You started talking to me. I'm not accusing you of reacting that way. I never did. I just said some folks in this thread have. Because they have.

And second, the 20fps appears to be a guess from the OP. Unless I'm missing some confirmation from GG.
Click to expand...
Weird that you qoute my post, arguing against me, and using a qoute regarding a negative outlook of the game; and now say that qoute was about other people in the thread? Hmm

Ive seen the 20 fps for myself.
Edit:
I read your post again and you are right it is quite clear you are not talking about me.
 
G

Gurish

Member
BleachAndPepsi said:
You missed the Ryse glitch gifs? I'm surprised. They were everywhere for a while.

Edit: Dammit, double post.
Click to expand...

Yea but glitches are more acceptable than frame-rate issues or jaggies,glitches are something that bound to be fixed and even if not it doesn't tell anything about the power of the hardware or about its performance,but when a game runs unstable or full of jaggies or other technical issues,you know there is a chance this is indicative of the final product or the power of the hardware,especially when we are only 2 months away from launch.
 
S

spwolf

Member
Horp said:
Ok. Listen. This was a multiplayer map from the game. Its not some old specfic demo they put together. And it was a showcase of the game to the world. If they pulled a miracle and upped performance by three times in high intensity scenes, they would wanna show THAT version. Get it? The game must be done within 1-1.5 months. We are talking last touches now. So they will have a version they can put up locked to one map. They dont need to, and wont, and wouldnt, and shouldnt pull out some 2 months old demo. Thats not how things work in this industry.
Click to expand...

do you work in this industry?
 
S

SniperHunter

Banned
GG isnt known for locking frame rates in multiplayer....they do a good job optimizing sp but not mp.

mp in kz2 and kz3 have unstable fps, dropping to 10~15 fps
 
F

Fracas

#fuckonami
I would bet a significant amount that the build at PAX is quite old.

Are there any Guerilla guys on Twitter I can ask? No idea if they'd be allowed to say, but it's worth a shot.
 
G

G_Berry

Banned
Evolution_1ne said:
Cool story bro, that's exactly why you shouldn't even waste your time and by doing so you inadvertently don't waste our time. win win



noo you like killzone 3, which was killzone 2 for all the people who sucked fucking shit at killzone. See this is how I played Killzone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkQGLnmg-cg those problems you had I didn't have becasue I didn't suck shit at Killzone. You call it fixing, I call it dumbing down



listen to this man
Click to expand...
You're a real piece of work aren't you.
 
S

skybald

Member
Gurish said:
But we are not talking about the cell architecture,all the PS4 philosophy is about the ease of development,and GG is a very capable studio whose been working on this game for a relatively long time,RYSE for example gets nothing but good impressions and it's on a weaker system with supposedly less refined tools.RYSE of FORZA regarding their technical merits,it's disappointing that sony's first party games doesn't sound too hot at the moment.
Click to expand...

Haha. Software development, how does it work?

Just because it is not cell doesn't mean the software is automatically optimized.
 
T

TheRagnCajun

Member
Gurish said:
Yea but glitches are more acceptable than frame-rate issues or jaggies,glitches are something that bound to be fixed and even if not it doesn't tell anything about the power of the hardware or about its performance,but when a game runs unstable or full of jaggies or other technical issues,you know there is a chance this is indicative of the final product or the power of the hardware,especially when we are only 2 months away from launch.
Click to expand...

They're both symptoms of the fact that its a massive crunch to get a game ready for launch. Sometimes the dev pulls it all together at the end, other times it ships buggy/laggy. Hard for me to judge since this is the first time either dev has had to release a launch game.
 
S

spwolf

Member
Horp said:
I used to. Working with game technology still but now for B2B applications.
Click to expand...

i am having hard time understanding how come someone working in the game industry doesnt realize all the problems engineers have to face when they have to do these show demos... it is logistic nightmare as you create separate demo code and then have to update it with latest buggy code teams send in. its not like it doesn't happen every time game is being shipped. literally nobody finishes the major game, especially for new platform, months before game is done.

so i am having hard time believing you actually work on engineering side.. do you work in marketing or something similar to that?
 
B

beast786

Member
Sub_Level said:
It's really not hard to tell fps by eye.

But as others have pointed out, it's not the final build. They will surely optimize it to locked 30, 45, or 60 minimums.
Click to expand...

Was just curious . I have been in those shows and its really hard unless you get a personal one on one demo .

Easiest thing to pick up are frame drops or inconsistent frame rate. At least for me. ope they lock it. Instead of aiming for 60 and being inconsistent
 
L

level_e11even

Banned
Funny thing to see people that think they know what they're talking about.

A lot of things can be done to improve, if not at least lock (30+), the FPS. A good example is the Driveclub build you saw at E3, and the difference you've seen (and soon will see in 1080p) after only a couple of months' work. Granted the E3 build was behind than the current code at the time, but the point is, optimization will certainly be done to the Killzone build.
 
G

GrizzNKev

Banned
beast786 said:
Was just curious . I have been in those shows and its really hard unless you get a personal one on one demo .

Easiest thing to pick up are frame drops or inconsistent frame rate. At least for me. ope they lock it. Instead of aiming for 60 and being inconsistent
Click to expand...

It was a stutterfest - the most obvious tell of a highly variable framerate. It is almost definitely the gamescom demo.
 
Sub_Level

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
beast786 said:
Was just curious . I have been in those shows and its really hard unless you get a personal one on one demo .

Easiest thing to pick up are frame drops or inconsistent frame rate. At least for me. ope they lock it. Instead of aiming for 60 and being inconsistent
Click to expand...

Inconsistent is terrible. I don't know if you've played MGS4 Guns of the Patriots, but that shit is the definition of inconsistent, especially when you use night vision (which is rarely useful anyway)
 
Sub_Level

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Evolution_1ne said:
Cool story bro, that's exactly why you shouldn't even waste your time and by doing so you inadvertently don't waste our time. win win



noo you like killzone 3, which was killzone 2 for all the people who sucked fucking shit at killzone. See this is how I played Killzone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkQGLnmg-cg those problems you had I didn't have becasue I didn't suck shit at Killzone. You call it fixing, I call it dumbing down



listen to this man
Click to expand...

Wait, did you seriously just non-ironically post a link to a sniper montage?
 
Codeblew

Codeblew

Member
Horp said:
Thats how some demos are made, I guess. But 1.5 months from release you can make a demo from the close-to-final code. And also, and this is more important; Im a programmer myself and I know lots of people in the industry; people want to showcase the latest. The bestest. If you have done MAJOR improvements you will show that version. And in this case they know that framerate is a sensitive topic. they are showing their big title for everyone, if they have a waay more optimized framerate version, they will show THAT. Scripted single player demos are something different. Often with staging, faking and downsampling going on.
Click to expand...

As a developer you should also know that optimization is one of the very last things you do in a dev cycle. Doing it early is a waste of time. The only major exception is that if the performance is sooooo bad, it is hindering your development/testing.

Edit:
No, last touches are very, very rarely big framerate increases. They are tweaking, balancing, bug testing bug testing bug testing. You're not gonna go reoptimize your rendering engine 1.5 m from release.
Click to expand...

Sure you will. Profile the code and work on the hot spots.
 
J

jacksepticeye

Member
So when they say the MP is 60fps does that mean it's a variable framerate and it can hit up to 60? cos it doesn't sound like it's locked down at that or even will be by launch
 
R

redhot_

Member
skybald said:
That is just one mode. Other MP footage does not have 'walk-hacks' present.
Click to expand...

Oh ya for sure, it's going to have alot of customization from what we saw in that MP trailer.

Just nitpicking, I'm just not a fan of giving players to many assists in a competitive mode.
 
G

GrizzNKev

Banned
BleachAndPepsi said:
Do you realize how demos are put together? From everything I've ever read, heard, or seen, they are generally vertical slices taken from a game months before display and worked on/polished for weeks/months to show off to the world. They are generally in no way representative of how a game will actually look or run. Which is why there are occasions where a section of the game shown in a demo doesn't even make it into the final game--while the team is polishing that section, the larger group working on the game have decided to remove that part and moved on.

But obviously the Killzone group is different and decided to just rip out a chunk of game code a couple days before the demo...

Edit: By the way, those "last touches" usually include fixing up the frame rate, correct? And don't give me this "they need to up the performance three times to reach 60fps." The demo isn't likely to have an FPS counter onscreen, so the OP is guessing at 20-60. He could be way off base.
Click to expand...

I'm not off base. I know what 60, 30, and less than 30 looks like, and they all happened while I was playing.

Again I will go back tomorrow to reconfirm my judgements and perhaps play the rainy map. I might even get some shakycam cell phone footage for ya.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Avatar Frontiers of Pandora - New Gameplay (Preview Demo)
2
51
3K
Black_Stride replied
Hyper Light Breaker | IGN Exclusive First Hands-On Gameplay Preview
Opinion 2
51
2K
TintoConCasera replied
Shadow Man Remastered made me realize how some of these remasters are better left in the past
2
87
5K
coffinbirth replied
Redfall Update 3.0 Announced: Multiple Fixes Coming
Platform 2 3
142
11K
StereoVsn replied
  • Poll
LTTP: Metroid Prime Remastered - Is it still great, or is it nostalgia?
2 3
102
5K
engstra replied
Top Bottom