• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Why it's totally wrong to expect Nintendo's next handheld to have an high res screen.

LeleSocho

Banned
I've seen way too many times people asserting that they will be in shock if Nintendo's next handled will not have a 1080p screen and find this fact inexcusable because even mid-end phones have these kind of screens and yadda yadda.
I want to put an end to this because these kind of expectationsare wrong not only for Nintendo but for everyone that at this point in time wants to build an handheld console.

Everything circles around one single factor and that's power consumption.

The first point is that however you want to put it the screen would incredibly inefficient power wise either it being 3,5 inches or 5 inches, the first ones because higher the pixel density is more power you need for light to go through all these pixels and the second ones because obviously you need more powerful lights to cover such a wide area. The difference in energy required between different resolution screens is huge.

The second point is simply horsepower, to drive those pixels you need a lot of power and even if mobile processors are evolving like crazy it's simply not enough, let me elaborate:
The most powerful mobile chip at the moment is arguably the A8X in the iPad Air 2 and its theoretical power is weaker than (but kinda comparable to) the one in the PS360, why did i bolded "theoretical"? Because even under stress your tablet/smartphone will never use the 100% of its horsepower otherwise its battery would drain in minutes not hours and you convey that a console that lasts this much is not a very good one... to add to all that please also notice that this is a tablet SoC which takes benefit of the way bigger body and battery, useless to say that such processors are not fit in a console form factor.
Now let's cheat and let's say that they use a chip this capable one for the console, how many PS360 games you remember that run flawlessly at 1080p? Even the WiiU which is kind of more powerful than those two doesn't manages to do so. An even better example of this would be the PSVita that with a very very high end 2011 SoC struggles to run games at its native resolution of 960x544.

I hope that everyone now understand that you need an huge amount of power and a stupidly big battery to game at these resolution, the Nvidia Shield Portable for instance, which is the closest thing that some of you guys want, to play Half Life 2 which is a real game unlike the ones of smartphone/tablets for 2-3 hours with a "mere" 720p screen needs a Tegra4 (high-end 2013 hardware) and a whopping 7350 mAh battery which is twice as big as the one in the Galaxy Note 4 and the same capacity of the one found in the iPad Air 2.

Also Nintendo nowadays never goes for the high-end hardware but that's another whole story.


----

A little side note to say that while it seems that i talk all big and stuff i'm not an expert in technology and all i learned is thanks to stuff i read on the internet so please if real experts wants to chime in to correct something stupid i said or to back me up please do so.
 

badb0y

Member
I've seen way too many times people asserting that they will be in shock if Nintendo's next handled will not have a 1080p screen and find this fact inexcusable because even mid-end phones have these kind of screens and yadda yadda.
I want to put an end to this because these kind of expectationsare wrong not only for Nintendo but for everyone that at this point in time wants to build an handheld console.

Everything circles around one single factor and that's power consumption.

The first point is that however you want to put it the screen would incredibly inefficient power wise either it being 3,5 inches or 5 inches, the first ones because higher the pixel density is more power you need for light to go through all these pixels and the second ones because obviously you need more powerful lights to cover such a wide area. The difference in energy required between different resolution screens is huge.

The second point is simply horsepower, to drive those pixels you need a lot of power and even if mobile processors are evolving like crazy it's simply not enough, let me elaborate:
The most powerful mobile chip at the moment is arguably the A8X in the iPad Air 2 and its theoretical power is weaker than (but kinda comparable to) the one in the PS360, why did i bolded "theoretical"? Because even under stress your tablet/smartphone will never use the 100% of its horsepower otherwise its battery would drain in minutes not hours and you convey that a console that lasts this much is not a very good one... to add to all that please also notice that this is a tablet SoC which takes benefit of the way bigger body and battery, useless to say that such processors are not fit in a console form factor.
Now let's cheat and let's say that they use a chip this capable one for the console, how many PS360 games you remember that run flawlessly at 1080p? Even the WiiU which is kind of more powerful than those two doesn't manages to do so. An even better example of this would be the PSVita that with a very very high end 2011 SoC struggles to run games at its native resolution of 960x544.

I hope that everyone now understand that you need an huge amount of power and a stupidly big battery to game at these resolution, the Nvidia Shield Portable for instance, which is the closest thing that some of you guys want, to play Half Life 2 which is a real game unlike the ones of smartphone/tablets for 2-3 hours with a "mere" 720p screen needs a Tegra4 (high-end 2013 hardware) and a whopping 7350 mAh battery which is twice as big as the one in the Galaxy Note 4 and the same capacity of the one found in the iPad Air 2.

Also Nintendo nowadays never goes for the high-end hardware but that's another whole story.


----

A little side note to say that while it seems that i talk all big and stuff i'm not an expert in technology and all i learned is thanks to stuff i read on the internet so please if real experts wants to chime in to correct something stupid i said or to back me up please do so.
Your arguments are against high resolution screens are garbage in this smartphone era.
 
V

Vilix

Unconfirmed Member
Cause it's Nintendo. They squeeze every bit they can from the cheapest hardware available.
 

LeleSocho

Banned
You really could have posted this in the 3 other threads made today revolving around the resolution of the 3DS screens, you know.
I wanted a wider exposure, in those other threads it could've drowned in other posts that talked about other stuff.
Your arguments are against high resolution screens are garbage in this smartphone era.

Seems like you haven't read anything of my post.
 
People are used to looking at high dpi screens these days. Their next handheld's display doesn't have to be cutting edge but it at least needs to look modern.
 

Massa

Member
The Vita doesn't struggle to run games at native resolution - the majority of its games run at native resolution. The games that run upscaled are straight ports of PS3/360 engines/games, which were designed to run on systems that uses 10 times more power than the Vita has.
 

LeleSocho

Banned
It's ok if mods wants to unite the two threads, i thought it deserved its own thread to talk about this on a technical level but whatever i guess not...
 

Anth0ny

Member
this is why:

$$$$$$$$$

no one cares about high res, expensive screens for game devices, or else the vita would be killing it.

I predict 4DS will have a higher res screen than the 3DS, but not as good as the Vita.
 

sörine

Banned
The Vita doesn't struggle to run games at native resolution - the majority of its games run at native resolution. The games that run upscaled are straight ports of PS3/360 engines/games, which were designed to run on systems that uses 10 times more power than the Vita has.
Ys and Uncharted are two off the top of my head that run sub-native and they're ground up efforts. It's not just last gen downports.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
540p to 720p or Nintendo should just go software only. Anything less in 2016/17 would make them the laughing stock of the electronics world and worse still, they'd be finding it harder to find people still producing lower res screens in bulk to get those production savings.

No the Vita does not "struggle to run games at native res". Christ.
 

Griss

Member
Is there seriously anyone expecting a 1080p screen? Seriously?

I don't think it's unfair to see the range of potential resolutions as being between the range of the Wii U gamepad's (854x480), the Vita's (960 × 544), and 720p (1280x720). By 2016 these should be power-able by modern mobile tech for 4-6 hours, no? That's no different than the 3DS or Vita.

Anything less than the Wii U gamepad resolution and I'll be fairly upset. I really think they should try to get 720p but I don't expect it at all, and only if they go single screen. If they go double screen then there's no chance of that at all, it'll likely be 460p + whatever makes sense below.

540p to 720p or Nintendo should just go software only. Anything less in 2016/17 would make them the laughing stock of the electronics world and worse still, they'd be finding it harder to find people still producing lower res screens in bulk to get those production savings.

This is what I'm thinking as well. The vast majority of cheap smartphone screens are being made around 720p. Why not go where the bulk of production is for the cheapest parts / greatest value?
 

Massa

Member
sörine;151083854 said:
Ys and Uncharted are two off the top of my head that run sub-native and they're ground up efforts. It's not just last gen downports.

I have no idea about Ys but Uncharted was built on ND's Uncharted engine.
 

Randomizer

Member
You can buy cheap as shit Chinese Android knockoffs with quad cores, 1Gb ram and HD Screens for $100 so there would be absolutely no excuse for it not to be at least 720p.
 

Jamix012

Member
540p to 720p or Nintendo should just go software only. Anything less in 2016/17 would make them the laughing stock of the electronics world and worse still, they'd be finding it harder to find people still producing lower res screens in bulk to get those production savings.

This is some "I'm an expert" level shit lol, well played.

No the Vita does not "struggle to run games at native res". Christ.

Isn't Killzone Mercenary like...one of maybe 3 games that aren't 2D that run at Native res on Vita?

Edit: Ok it's more than 3, but it's maybe like 20-25 at most.
 

Gestault

Member
Your arguments are against high resolution screens are garbage in this smartphone era.

As battery duration and price point aren't exactly solved when it comes to smartphone gaming, I don't think they're unreasonable assertions here. It makes sense that the highest-possible resolutions seen on the market wouldn't be prioritized over more cost-effective/practical options, especially given Nintendo's product design philosophies in the past.
 
At this point I feel like the Nexus 7 2013 is a good starting point for where it should be. If it can't match those specs, yet Nintendo is happy to sell it for $200 or more in 2015 or later, then they're going too cheap.

this is why:

$$$$$$$$$

no one cares about high res, expensive screens for game devices, or else the vita would be killing it.

That's... a pretty big jump.
 

Caramello

Member
You're absolutely right. Screen resolution will be lower than many here hope for, especially if it has two screens because that obviously drains even more power.

Do people forget that the 3DS is in some ways worse than the PSP? You shouldn't expect anything better than the Vita in terms of general power or resolution.
 

finalflame

Gold Member
giphy.gif


Vita drives a "540p" screen and has perfectly fine battery life, while keeping a really nice, slim form factor. The device is 4 years old.

At the end of the day, with progress in energy-efficienct APUs as well as smaller and smaller manufacturing processes, it should be possible for Nintendo to release a console that has 6-8 hour battery life with a 720p scree and a generational leap in handheld IQ.

Now, that's not to say I think they will do it. It does not really fall in line with Nintendo's recent business philosophy to release devices that are even close to the edge of tech. So, yah, if I had to guess I think we'll get a 480p or 540p device.
 

AngryMoth

Member
Does pixel density really effect power consumption? Why would you need more power to light them, it's still the same surface area, right?

I think it's reasonable to expect 720p but lower wouldn't surprise me.
 

Griss

Member
This is some "I'm an expert" level shit lol, well played.

Like it or not, Apple has taught an entire generation that the resolution of a screen matters with their retina screen stuff that prompted an entire industry to go screen crazy for five years. Shit, even my parents ask if the new iPad is 'properly' retina, and they don't know what they're talking about. Casual consumers care about screens now. They won't notice the difference between 720p and 1080p, but try selling them 420p or something two years from now and they're going to glance at the phone in their pocket, back at your new device's screen and wonder 'what the fuck am i spending money on here?'
 

The End

Member
No one is asking for a 5" 1440p screen.

I'm not buying another nintendo device with a sub-480p screen though, i just won't.
 
I'll be happy with something close to the Vita.

This, they should just copy the Vita with some slight alterations (no proprietary memory cards, ditch the dual camera's, ditch rear touch pad) and sell it for $99.

It's a huge upgrade over the 3DS and it's super cheap.
 

Peru

Member
100% guaranteed to be at least 720. There's zero doubt and zero possibility it will be below that. There's a bigger chance that they'll start making xbox exclusive games than it being sub 720. Zero.
 

Tempy

don't ask me for codes
I don't think anyone is realistically expecting anything above 540p. I mean, they released a 240p-esque screen in 2011.

Ah, but what about the millions of people with unrealistic expectations! They want their 1080p screens with fancy menus and seem content with simplistic or static games.

Thing is, they could go with 1080p and just throttle everything to get decent battery life. I'd rather they sacrifice resolution (480p-720p) to have enough power for more gameplay-relevant processes.
 

finalflame

Gold Member
This, they should just copy the Vita with some slight alterations (no proprietary memory cards, ditch the dual camera's, ditch rear touch pad) and sell it for $99.

It's a huge upgrade over the 3DS and it's super cheap.

I'd prefer to pay $199 and have a device that's more capable and feature-complete than the Vita. The $99 price point does not make the device more attractive to me at all.
 
It seems to me that 720p is the sweet spot resolution wise. Image quality will be good and battery life should be decent while still being fairly cheap to manufacture.
 

sörine

Banned
I have no idea about Ys but Uncharted was built on ND's Uncharted engine.
Nope, Bend developed the engine themselves. They even commented on it being a shame that it only ended up being used for a single game given the work they sunk into it.

Ys Celceta uses the PhyreEngine.
 

Anth0ny

Member
That's... a pretty big jump.

An expensive screen doesn't sell handhelds, games do.

A cheaper handheld with a worse screen and games with mass appeal will outsell an expensive handheld with a great screen and unappealing games every time.

Nintendo is always going to try and keep costs down with their handhelds, and a shitty screen is one way of doing that. Sales will only decrease if they bump up the price by $50 in order to get a 720p screen on there. Jane Walmart just wants to buy Mario and Pikachu for little Jimmy.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
Ideally I'd take 720p - 1080p is a pipe dream for an affordable handheld that's pushing the tech the limit at all times - but frankly 480/540p with amazing battery life would also be great. Talking DS Lite level of course, but it's doubtful we'll see that in a handheld ever again.
 
I feel like every argument against a high res screen decides to ignore that the Vita exists and has the same battery life as the 3ds as well as being higher quality in every hardware/technical area despite coming out for the same or nearly the same price as the original 3ds (weren't they both 250?) nearly immediately afterwards.

It'd be dirt cheap to make a nintendo handheld today that was as powerful and had as high res screen as the Vita. Hell, it might be cheaper to make one with a 720 screen, considering the costs of production of older and oudated poor quality screens.
 

Stevey

Member
My phone is a 6" 1080/60 screen.
Your argument is invalid.
LOL Nintendo :V

But seriously it should be at least 720, it's 2015

And it's a high res, not an high res :p
 
this is why:

$$$$$$$$$

no one cares about high res, expensive screens for game devices, or else the vita would be killing it.

I predict 4DS will have a higher res screen than the 3DS, but not as good as the Vita.

The vitas screen was highly praised, it's more the lack of developer interest and the expensive memory cards that killed it.

But in an age where you could have a 1280×800 tablet for <200 in 2012, putting a sub HD screen out these days for what will be what, at least a $170 to 250 handheld is just asinine.

When every smart phone, tablet, and portable device is pushing hd resolutions, another sub hd screen from nintendo just won't cut it.
 
Screen resolution in itself is pretty low on the list of things I'd expect from their next handheld. Screen quality (ie color range, contrast) is a way bigger offender right now IMO. I'd rather they made a screen on which games look good with decent IQ. I'd rather avoid a Vita situation where there's a constant trade off between native resolution and performance.

So yeah, in the grand scheme of things, I agree it's a pipe dream to run after a 1080p resolution for a handheld as feasability doesn't sound too hot and it's not necessarily the be all end all metric of display quality.

The one thing Nintendo must change is that fucking analog volume slider. Now that is really ridiculously backwards.
 

Caramello

Member
I feel like every argument against a high res screen decides to ignore that the Vita exists and has the same battery life as the 3ds as well as being higher quality in every hardware/technical area despite coming out for the same or nearly the same price as the original 3ds (weren't they both 250?) nearly immediately afterwards.

It'd be dirt cheap to make a nintendo handheld today that was as powerful and had as high res screen as the Vita. Hell, it might be cheaper to make one with a 720 screen, considering the costs of production of older and oudated poor quality screens.

This is an argument against a high resolution screen.

Edit: you're right though in relation to the 3ds successor likely being similar to Vita in terms of specs.
 
I think mobile VR will be the next hot thing and releasing a traditional handheld device with low-res screens in 2016+ is financial suicide.
 
The vitas screen was highly praised, it's more the lack of developer interest and the expensive memory cards that killed it.

But in an age where you could have a 1280×800 tablet for <200 in 2012, putting a sub HD screen out these days for what will be what, at least a $170 to 250 handheld is just asinine.

When every smart phone, tablet, and portable device is pushing hd resolutions, another sub hd screen from nintendo just won't cut it.

I think it would be foolish for Nintendo to launch a handheld at those prices. $99 should be their goal, and $199 for their console.

The 3DS and Wii U put Nintendo in the red, there were many reasons for this but the main one was that they were 100-150 dollars more expensive than they should have been.
 

co1onel

Member
sörine;151084757 said:
Nope, Bend developed the engine themselves. They even commented on it being a shame that it only ended up being used for a single game given the work they sunk into it.

Ys Celceta uses the PhyreEngine.

I'm pretty sure the engine was used for Unit 13 and another game that I'm forgetting. It was only used once by sony bend.
 
An expensive screen doesn't sell handhelds, games do.

A cheaper handheld with a worse screen and games with mass appeal will outsell an expensive handheld with a great screen and unappealing games every time.

Nintendo is always going to try and keep costs down with their handhelds, and a shitty screen is one way of doing that. Sales will only decrease if they bump up the price by $50 in order to get a 720p screen on there. Jane Walmart just wants to buy Mario and Pikachu for little Jimmy.

Whoa, okay. You can change what you said and make an argument from that, but you said:

Anth0ny said:
no one cares about high res, expensive screens for game devices, or else the vita would be killing it.

You didn't say anything about the game library (and I disagree with you on that). You said "obviously no one cares about screens or the Vita would be doing well." My thought was "There's a lot of reasons the Vita didn't fare well, you can't say there wasn't interest in decent screens because the Vita isn't selling."
 

Mr Swine

Banned
As I have said in other threads, I would gladly take a single 480p/540p screen with much better graphics than Vita rather than the opposite
 
Top Bottom