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PA Report - The Xbox One will kill used games, that's good

So basically, when this thing comes out and the software sales are shit, you'll claim it wasn't a controlled experiment because the results don't match your presumptions.

Got it.

I'm saying that if you run an experiment, you need to account for major factors that influence the system in order to have a good control.

You know, science.
 
2nd Bold - You pointed out why the information wasn't complete or 100% representation of what happens, but that is why I called it evidence. We have nothing that proves the contrary and you didnt point out "critical flaws", that would mean the data he had was wrong. The industry just refuse to show us all the numbers to prove the assertion(which in itself should be quite telling).

Without the missing data, all the other data is meaningless.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
I don't think that's really true... digital surpassed retail in unit sales in 2010, and afaik Steam was already doing substantial sales at that time. And that was unit sales, box copies were still more than half the market in total revenue.

In 2012, physical copies were still 40% of the PC market's revenue. And that number probably skews much higher for AAA games. And Steam (and Amazon/Gamersgate/GMG) had long been doing deep sales by this point.

Digital sales on PC have almost nothing to do with not having to capitulate to retail, and much more to do with Steam finding a successful business model and other digital distributors following suit.

Where is your data coming from? The World or the US? The only way I can see 40% PC still being boxed is pretty much Blizzard titles... you can't even find retail boxed in stores anymore outside of a few titles. They must also not be including quite a few of the DD outlets.. retail for the PC hardly exists at all.. at least in the US.

So you think everyone should just go out and buy in to this on the off chance that maybe MS & friends will lower the price of software?

It's not strange to think that history would prove that what happened in the PC market would also happen on consoles when retail is basically eliminated as a necessary evil. You start transferring the sales we see in retail now to digital.


If Sony &/or Microsoft gets rid of the ability to sell, trade, or buy used games, then what would be the point of buying either of their consoles when PC, more or less, is exactly the same thing (in which you can buy most stuff digitally)? And does everything better than consoles? We might as well build ourselves good gaming PC's for that.

That's one of the reasons why console gaming is very popular, because of used games.

Huh? No.. it's because of convenience. Of course, seeing the backlash.. maybe you are right... people seem to like the idea of used games more than actually playing games.
 
When it comes to used games, if you want one rather than a new game, they are available 100% of the time. There are enough new game purchases and trade-ins that there is never a shortage of used games priced at a discount relative to new games.

This applies quite literally to every reusable packaged good in the world. Go to Amazon or eBay, look up any consumer good, from books to toys to MP3 players to tablets to handbags to sporting equipment to musical instruments to microwaves. There will be a couple new sellers (if available) and a long line of used sellers selling it for a discounted price because, you know, it's used but still perfectly functional. This is completely expected as time goes on and the original product either decreases in availability or ends its print run and more people who owned it stop having a use for it, and it happens to everything. So why have none of those other industries collapsed? Why do you think it's significant at all that video games have a healthy used ecosystem just like every other fucking good on the planet? What makes gaming so special that you think it's OK to carve out a special exemption for the way packaged goods have been distributed since the beginning of barter systems and limit the ability of people to recoup some of their original investment like they can with every other single reusable thing in their household?
 
This applies quite literally to every reusable packaged good in the world. Go to Amazon or eBay, look up any consumer good, from books to toys to MP3 players to tablets to handbags to sporting equipment to musical instruments to microwaves. There will be a couple new sellers (if available) and a long line of used sellers selling it for a discounted price because, you know, it's used but still perfectly functional. This is completely expected as time goes on and the original product either decreases in availability or ends its print run and more people who owned it stop having a use for it, and it happens to everything. So why have none of those other industries collapsed? Why do you think it's significant at all that video games have a healthy used ecosystem just like every other fucking good on the planet? What makes gaming so special that you think it's OK to carve out a special exemption for the way packaged goods have been distributed since the beginning of barter systems and limit the ability of people to recoup some of their original investment like they can with every other single reusable thing in their household?

Used games don't degrade with time, under normal circumstances. They are for all intents and purposes identical to a new game. What other packaged goods can claim the same?
 

Dead Man

Member
Used games don't degrade with time, under normal circumstances. They are for all intents and purposes identical to a new game. What other packaged goods can claim the same?

Lots of things are functionally perfect for a long time after purchase. Demonstrater and ex lease cars, books, audio speakers, furniture, dvd's, cd's, consumer electronics, game consoles, all these are resold all the time in perfect working condition. Eventually some of them deteriorate, books probably quickest, or may become outdated if they are electronics, but that is no different to games.
 
Lots of things are functionally perfect for a long time after purchase. Demonstrater and ex lease cars, books, audio speakers, furniture, dvd's, cd's, consumer electronics, game consoles, all these are resold all the time in perfect working condition. Eventually some of them deteriorate, books probably quickest, or may become outdated if they are electronics, but that is no different to games.

What? No. DVDs and CDs, yes, but they are consumed differently from games, and are cheaper, thus creating less margin for arbitrage. Which is why used DVDs/CDs aren't 33% of the total market, and used games have become a huge business. High end audio - yes, which is why it holds its value, minus the expiring warranty. Anything with moving parts - no. Any electronics that are designed to run hot - no.

Games do not become functionally obsolete except with generation transitions and online server shutdowns.
 

Dead Man

Member
What? No. DVDs and CDs, yes, but they are consumed differently from games, and are cheaper, thus creating less margin for arbitrage. Which is why used DVDs/CDs aren't 33% of the total market, and used games have become a huge business. High end audio - yes, which is why it holds its value, minus the expiring warranty. Anything with moving parts - no. Any electronics that are designed to run hot - no.

Games do not become functionally obsolete except with generation transitions and online server shutdowns.

LOL
 

Artorias

Banned
What? No. DVDs and CDs, yes, but they are consumed differently from games, and are cheaper, thus creating less margin for arbitrage. Which is why used DVDs/CDs aren't 33% of the total market, and used games have become a huge business. High end audio - yes, which is why it holds its value, minus the expiring warranty. Anything with moving parts - no. Any electronics that are designed to run hot - no.

Games do not become functionally obsolete except with generation transitions and online server shutdowns.

Since none of those items being sold used are a problem with you, can you name something else that deserves the same " resale protection" as games? Are games just a special case?
 

conman

Member
Used games don't degrade with time, under normal circumstances. They are for all intents and purposes identical to a new game. What other packaged goods can claim the same?
What? There are many. And what's more, there are even quite a few packaged goods that actually increase in value over time without becoming functionally different (jewelry, paintings, etc.). There are any number of "investment" goods to which this applies.

And as others have mentioned, games do have a natural process of deterioration. The data itself may not age, but the technology certainly does. Technology, like "value" itself, is a relative measure that is subject to wide fluctuations in function and relevance.

The whole debate over used games is a distraction tactic from bloated publishers. The reason developers are hungry for the cash "lost" from used game sales is because the industry as a whole has become less stable. Publishers keep growing in size (more execs, administrators, producers, suits of all stripes), while developers bear all the financial risk. But blaming consumers for the industry's financial losses is misguided. The real problem is a busted publishing system.
 

MasLegio

Banned
Used games don't degrade with time, under normal circumstances. They are for all intents and purposes identical to a new game. What other packaged goods can claim the same?

I have books that are around and over 100 years old that are in good condition.

At our cabin we have tools and machinery that are at least one hundred years old that are still working.
I have clothing that is over 30 years old that is still looking good and usable.

I have CDs from the 80ies that are still working as well as LPs from the 50ies and forward
 
Since none of those items being sold used are a problem with you, can you name something else that deserves the same " resale protection" as games? Are games just a special case?

The resale of software that is designed for a limited period of consumption rather than productivity presents unique problems, yes.

I'm honestly quite surprised that people are unable to grasp this notion and instead compare it to jewelry.

And then they think that the game companies are the stupid ones.
 
I have books that are around and over 100 years old that are in good condition.

At our cabin we have tools and machinery that are at least one hundred years old that are still working.
I have clothing that is over 30 years old that is still looking good and usable.

I have CDs from the 80ies that is still working as well as LPs from the 50ies and forward

So your examples are the general rule, right? Which is what we are concerned about, as business models don't revolve around anecdotes and exceptions.
 

Cynar

Member
What? No. DVDs and CDs, yes, but they are consumed differently from games, and are cheaper, thus creating less margin for arbitrage. Which is why used DVDs/CDs aren't 33% of the total market, and used games have become a huge business. High end audio - yes, which is why it holds its value, minus the expiring warranty. Anything with moving parts - no. Any electronics that are designed to run hot - no.

Games do not become functionally obsolete except with generation transitions and online server shutdowns.
I can't believe what I just read, wow.
 

Artorias

Banned
The resale of software that is designed for a limited period consumption rather than productivity presents unique problems, yes.

I'm honestly quite surprised that people are unable to grasp this notion and instead compare it to jewelry.

And then they think that the game companies are the stupid ones.

But you don't find a problem with CD or DVD resale, right? I'm just asking for another example. You seem to have strayed off into debating with someone you didn't bother to name.
 
What? There are many. And what's more, there are even quite a few packaged goods that actually increase in value over time without becoming functionally different (jewelry, paintings, etc.). There are any number of "investment" goods to which this applies.

And as others have mentioned, games do have a natural process of deterioration. The data itself may not age, but the technology certainly does. Technology, like "value" itself, is a relative measure that is subject to wide fluctuations in function and relevance.

The whole debate over used games is a distraction tactic from bloated publishers. The reason developers are hungry for the cash "lost" from used game sales is because the industry as a whole has become less stable. Publishers keep growing in size (more execs, administrators, producers, suits of all stripes), while developers bear all the financial risk. But blaming consumers for the industry's financial losses is misguided. The real problem is a busted publishing system.

Jewelry? Pantings? Name me one painting one piece of jewelry that, like games, contains zero valuable materials and is mass-produced such that each of a million+ copies are identical to one another, that holds its value over time.

The "deterioration" of used games does not occur within the primary purchase cycle of used games and is thus irrelevant. For 99.9% (probably even more than that) of used game purchases, the consumer is getting a game that functions exactly like a new game.

Your diatribe on publishers is more or less just ignorant, the rantings of someone who has little actual knowledge of how or why the industry works the way it does. Developers bear all the financial risk? What? Blaming consumers? No one is doing that. They are simply following economic incentives, just as "bloated publishers" are. It's the system by which games are delivered, consumed, and recycled into the system that is a problem.
 
What happens when some 10 yo cracks the activation checks and removes them? ?? While it may end up being the most security focused console it could end up being the quickest to get cracked as the practices employed are all universally hated by hackers.

WIll ms go sony like and try to sue eveyone??
 

Yagharek

Member
Used games don't degrade with time, under normal circumstances. They are for all intents and purposes identical to a new game. What other packaged goods can claim the same?

You're kidding right? Discs get scratched, manuals get lost or torn, cases damaged and parts of the game become unplayable thanks to disc rot or batteries dying on the cart, or servers switched off.

Also, I won't use it to make a point about your argument, but your username is incredibly ironic.
 
But you don't find a problem with CD or DVD resale, right? I'm just asking for another example. You seem to have strayed off into debating with someone you didn't bother to name.

Not so much. And here's why.
1) CD resale shops are dead. Physical media for music is more or less dead. Used CD sales are certainly not 33% of the market as they are with console games. And guess what? People are fine with the ownership model that iTunes provides, which does not allow resale.
2) The same is happening with movies, but more slowly.
3) The prices on CDs and DVDs leave little room for arbitrage. Gamestop can make $20+ a unit on arbitrage of used games. The margin on CDs and DVDs is significantly smaller and thus does not create so ripe a market.
4) Music, and to a lesser extent, movies, are consumed differently than video games are. The average person will listen to a single CD with very little diminishing marginal returns in terms of enjoyment. And people who buy movies will often watch them multiple times over the life of the DVD. On the other hand, games are often consumed for a limited period of time, after which they hold little worth to the player, increasing the incentive for the player to trade it in towards a new experience.
 
You're kidding right? Discs get scratched, manuals get lost or torn, cases damaged and parts of the game become unplayable thanks to disc rot or batteries dying on the cart, or servers switched off.

Also, I won't use it to make a point about your argument, but your username is incredibly ironic.

Yes, damage occurs, but it does not disproportionately occur to used games vs new games. If I buy a new game, I don't have less of a chance of it being damaged during my period of ownership than if I buy a used one, especially within the limited timeframes of a console generation (or, more relevantly, within the 1-2 years after the game's release, during which the most revenue is being lost)
 

Artorias

Banned
Not so much. And here's why.
1) CD resale shops are dead. Physical media for music is more or less dead. Used CD sales are certainly not 33% of the market as they are with console games. And guess what? People are fine with the ownership model that iTunes provides, which does not allow resale.
2) The same is happening with movies, but more slowly.
3) The prices on CDs and DVDs leave little room for arbitrage. Gamestop can make $20+ a unit on arbitrage of used games. The margin on CDs and DVDs is significantly smaller and thus does not create so ripe a market.
4) Music, and to a lesser extent, movies, are consumed differently than video games are. The average person will listen to a single CD with very little diminishing marginal returns in terms of enjoyment. And people who buy movies will often watch them multiple times over the life of the DVD. On the other hand, games are often consumed for a limited period of time, after which they hold little worth to the player, increasing the incentive for the player to trade it in towards a new experience.

So to be clear, games really are the one single item that you feel deserves this protection, despite them costing significantly more than a CD or DVD for the first sale?
 

Yagharek

Member
Yes, damage occurs, but it does not disproportionately occur to used games vs new games. If I buy a new game, I don't have less of a chance of it being damaged during my period of ownership than if I buy a used one, especially within the limited timeframes of a console generation (or, more relevantly, within the 1-2 years after the game's release, during which the most revenue is being lost)

By virtue of a physical disc or game card being older, by definition it is more likely to become damaged as the materials degrade or become brittle, or get sabotaged by young children or a faulty disc drive.

A game is not immune to degradation through reasonable use, so lower prices for second hand sales should result in recognition of the increased risk.
 

eosos

Banned
I just don't understand how the gaming industry can't handled used games, while every other industry in existence seems to deal with used products perfectly fine. It's a fact of business that things will be traded, etc.. Also, has piracy ever even been a huge thing on consoles?? I have met one person in my entire life that pirates games for consoles. I mean, it's already a really involved process with burning games onto blu rays and whatnot. This whole thing just seems like an obvious money grab for sony and microsoft.
 
So to be clear, games really are the one single item that you feel deserves this protection, despite them costing significantly more than a CD or DVD for the first sale?

Of those ones brought up so far, yes. If used CDs or DVDs were 33% of their respective markets, I'd think it true of them as well. Creators should be paid for their work.
 
By virtue of a physical disc or game card being older, by definition it is more likely to become damaged as the materials degrade or become brittle, or get sabotaged by young children or a faulty disc drive.

A game is not immune to degradation through reasonable use, so lower prices for second hand sales should result in recognition of the increased risk.

The delta in risk related to disc degradation is so small during the relevant period that it can be considered zero.

Risks associated with young children and faulty disc drives are completely independent of whether the game was purchased used or new.
 
I just don't understand how the gaming industry can't handled used games, while every other industry in existence seems to deal with used products perfectly fine. It's a fact of business that things will be traded, etc.. Also, has piracy ever even been a huge thing on consoles?? I have met one person in my entire life that pirates games for consoles. I mean, it's already a really involved process with burning games onto blu rays and whatnot. This whole thing just seems like an obvious money grab for sony and microsoft.

Music, movie, and book industries have all dealt with it by moving to a digital model in which used sales are not possible. And those customers have largely been satisfied with it, rather than screaming bloody murder.
 
It'll be interesting to see what the fallout is from the hardline DRM stance will be given the statements Gamestop has made in the past about that the vast majority of trade-ins being used to purchase new releases. Once used games are eliminated, or at least made more unfavourable a thing for consumers to engage in, the publishers and platform holders will have nothing left but the faults of their own business model to deal with and blame. Well, I guess there's always the boogeyman of piracy to point the finger at.

Still by eliminating used games, and consumer liquidity to purchase more games than they'd likely be able to otherwise, publishers and platform holders are kind of cutting their nose off despite their face. It will be interesting to see how large a hit the sales of new games take.
 

Syrionus

Neo Member
My question is, was piracy really a big thing on the consoles? I didn't think it was a huge issue. So, either this is some made up BS or my head was too far into PC gaming...you know, where piracy is a major problem.
 
Last I checked when I bought a bluray or DVD movie it did not require my player to connect to the internet anytime iI wanted to watch it. I also don't recall each mp3 I bought and downloaded needing to connect to the internet each time i wanted to hear it either.
 

eosos

Banned
Music, movie, and book industries have all dealt with it by moving to a digital model in which used sales are not possible. And those customers have largely been satisfied with it, rather than screaming bloody murder.

Yeah, they have that part of their business too. But they still sell physical media that can be freely traded and exchanged.
 

jetjevons

Bish loves my games!
I just don't understand how the gaming industry can't handled used games, while every other industry in existence seems to deal with used products perfectly fine. It's a fact of business that things will be traded, etc.. Also, has piracy ever even been a huge thing on consoles?? I have met one person in my entire life that pirates games for consoles. I mean, it's already a really involved process with burning games onto blu rays and whatnot. This whole thing just seems like an obvious money grab for sony and microsoft.

I don't think the first parties are the sole driving force behind this. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a feature that 3rd party publishers requested.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
My question is, was piracy really a big thing on the consoles? I didn't think it was a huge issue. So, either this is some made up BS or my head was too far into PC gaming...you know, where piracy is a major problem.

It really wasn't as far as I can tell, it's never really been brought up in the console space before now.
 

MasLegio

Banned
What happens when some 10 yo cracks the activation checks and removes them? ?? While it may end up being the most security focused console it could end up being the quickest to get cracked as the practices employed are all universally hated by hackers.

WIll ms go sony like and try to sue eveyone??

Im not ten years old but the only reason for me to buy the Xbox One is when it has been hacked and allows me to use it fairly
 

saunderez

Member
Last I checked when I bought a bluray or DVD movie it did not require my player to connect to the internet anytime iI wanted to watch it. I also don't recall each mp3 I bought and downloaded needing to connect to the internet each time i wanted to hear it either.

The things they think we'll just put up with that we don't have to put up with when it comes to any other form of media is ludicrous.
 

MasLegio

Banned
Of those ones brought up so far, yes. If used CDs or DVDs were 33% of their respective markets, I'd think it true of them as well. Creators should be paid for their work.

they are already paid for their work when people buy their fucking products!!

they should not be paid again when someone sells something they own, and has already paid for, and has a legal fucking right to sell to whoever they fucking want
 

Calvarok

Banned
I'm not going to read the rest of this thread, but I'd just like to say that no, PA, that's not good at all, and I hope that no company actually has that as their goal. If you can make a DRM solution that allows people to easily sell games and buy used ones without paying an activation fee or connecting to the internet every 24 hours, then that's fine.
 
they are already paid for their work when people buy their fucking products!!

they should not be paid again when someone sells something they own, and has already paid for, and has a legal fucking right to sell to whoever they fucking want

I can't sell my iTunes collection.

And yes, they should be paid when people pay money to enjoy their creation.

Now, whether prices should be lower (or at least discounted more quickly) is another issue (I think they should).
 
Last I checked when I bought a bluray or DVD movie it did not require my player to connect to the internet anytime iI wanted to watch it. I also don't recall each mp3 I bought and downloaded needing to connect to the internet each time i wanted to hear it either.

That's DRM, not used games. A somewhat separate issue, and one I mostly agree with you on, although every 24 hours is not "every time", and internet is much more reasonable to require on a home console than on a tablet, phone, mp3 player, etc.
 

Artorias

Banned
Of those ones brought up so far, yes. If used CDs or DVDs were 33% of their respective markets, I'd think it true of them as well. Creators should be paid for their work.

I'm trying to ask if there is ANY product you feel deserves the same protection, but I can see that would probably take another 5+ questions to get an answer to since you don't seem interested in answering anything directly.

It's interesting that you think the percentage of new vs used sales is important when deciding if a used market is detrimental. Kind of defeats your argument. I get that you care about games and not all that other stuff, but it's an interesting bias to try to defend.
 
I'm trying to ask if there is ANY product you feel deserves the same protection, but I can see that would probably take another 5+ questions to get an answer to since you don't seem interested in answering anything directly.

It's interesting that you think the percentage of new vs used sales is important when deciding if its a used market is detrimental. Kind of defeats your argument. I get that you care about games and not all that other stuff, but it's an interesting bias to try to defend.

If the secondhand market is not having a major detrimental effect on the primary market, then why would it need to be addressed?

If it were the case for movies and games, then yes, I'd favor similar measures by music/movie industries to protect themselves against it.

Can you name me another market of goods designed for consumption where this is the case, where the new goods have no benefit over used goods, and where used goods are universally priced at a discount to new goods?
 
In this industry, do buyers of new cars get no benefits for the extra money they spend, as with used games?

That wasn't his question.

Wrong, I have never walked into a dealer and been steered to the used cars unless I asked.

Not every country is the same in that regard.

Also, the used cars are the first thing if you walk into a lot of dealers, because they are parked outside.

The whole car analogy doesn't really fit though.
 

Xenon

Member
Not every country is the same in that regard.

Also, the used cars are the first thing if you walk into a lot of dealers, because they are parked outside.


You can't be serious... there is a huge difference with having cars parked in front and training your employees to push used over new sales.
 
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