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GDC : How Arc System achieved the cell shading in Guilty Gear Xrd

dosh

Member
2286021-ggxsign01_68064_screen.jpg

Video here.

It's a really interesting conference about the challenges Arc System Works faced while trying to make a 3D game look like a 2D one, and the tricks they used in order to achieve that result.

Some of these aren't that surprising (inverted model to get the exterior outline, stuff like that), but the normals orientation bit is really cool.

they also show one tiny image of a canned project that set the basics for GG Xrd look
 

playXray

Member
It looks so ace, I can't wait to pick this up when it gets an EU release next week.

I really wish Street Fighter IV / V looked like this.
 
It truly is very impressive. So much detail goes into it that Arc said that it wasn't any easier making the characters as 3D models as they would have stuck with pixel art. It takes four months for them to make each character.
 

Terrell

Member
It truly is very impressive. So much detail goes into it that Arc said that it wasn't any easier making the characters as 3D models as they would have stuck with pixel art.

Except some of the work is re-usable now and the experience with it will likely make things move more quickly in the future. This was the first game to use it, I would bet it takes time to get how they want when they're literally carving out new territory in cel shading techniques.
 

JordanN

Banned
Well, now that they've let the secret out, perhaps we will see more games use this technique.

It needs to happen soon given how many developers are left that specialize in this stuff anymore?

The West has barely made any AAA cartoon/non-photorealistic games for next gen and Japan is declining.
 
Except some of the work is re-usable now and the experience with it will likely make things move more quickly in the future. This was the first game to use it, I would bet it takes time to get how they want when they're literally carving out new territory in cel shading techniques.

While true, what likely makes things take so long is that they essentially treat the 3D models like sprites. They hand animate everything bit by bit while fixing the shading, lighting, and what not along the way. This is oppose to most 3D games which do as much as possible to take shortcuts.
 

RexNovis

Banned
Answer: BLACK MAGIC

EwApujO.gif


Seriously though the 3D modeling in the game blows me away every time. It's stunning. Truly mind boggling stuff. I just wish I was better at the game...
 

enigmatic_alex44

Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Xrd is absolutely stunning on the PS4 (not sure how the PS3 version turned out). The closest we've come to seeing an anime artstyle successfully translated into 3D, but still looking 2D.

On the downside, the roster was reduced significantly since it takes so long to make each character from scratch (thankfully my fave Millia made the cut) but I'm hoping Xrd sold well enough to greenlight a sequel so a couple of characters can be added per update Blazblue style. I also wouldn't be surprised if Blazblue adopts this engine once that series is next-gen only (not counting the cross-gen Chronophantasma Extend). Then we can get GG Vs. BB!
 

low-G

Member
It hurt the most when they showed that they had made made full smooth animations, but cut it down to 15fps animations to get the traditional look

https://youtu.be/yhGjCzxJV3E?t=1755

Remember, those smooth animations were only computer generated. All the same information/art exists in the actual Xrd game, but instead of a computer interpolating it, your brain does.

Anyways I love the work they did. The controlling of the lighting threshold & normals made me finally understand how they managed to make the first great cel shading.
 

Lafazar

Member
Thanks for the link, that was pretty interesting.

Their set of techniques is very clever, but I fear the amount of work that is necessary for the artists to make characters in this style is prohibitive to make anything else than fighting games. I would really love to see more games of different genres in this style.
 

dosh

Member
Remember, those smooth animations were only computer generated. All the same information/art exists in the actual Xrd game, but instead of a computer interpolating it, your brain does.
That said, it's purely an artistic choice. But I love that they decided to go full 2D style, all the way to their rig, with a ton of deformations and stretches. It's quite interesting to see this video right after the excellent article by Blake Reynolds.

Anyways I love the work they did. The controlling of the lighting threshold & normals made me finally understand how they managed to make the first great cel shading.
I'm currently working on the early stages of development on a cell-shaded 3D animated series for a tv network, and some of the ideas in this video (the uv layout and the vertex normal orientation) are going to be extremely helpful.
 
I'd love for more advanced software to facilitate ultra-smooth 3D-to-2D animation and really blur that line. Perhaps programs that can slightly alter each frame to make it look hand-drawn with advanced scaling that was mentioned in the video.
 
I would like to see more cel shaded games this gen. I think it makes sense if you don't want to blow your budget trying to make everything hyper-realistic.
 

NastyBook

Member
Just got to the video demos. Hahaha, that's fucking legit. Much respect to ASW for going that route. I don't think I much like that Sol on the right.
 

Peltz

Member
Truly, this was one of the most graphically innovative games of recent times. Let's hope more developers take a cue from this game to try other art styles.
 

eso76

Member
The tech, or rather, the creative use of tech behind this is amazing, I just think it's a bit underutilized here.

I mean, if it weren't for the occasional camera rotation you wouldn't even know the game uses 3D models, not sure it was worth all the trouble for them. I appreciate it though !
 

Neoxon

Junior Member
I'm still in disbelief that they were able to make Xrd look like it does. Props to them.
Please patch Lab Zero's driver into the PS4 version so I can use my PS3 stick.
 

Klossen

Banned
"Photorealism is great, but it's not the only way"

Closing words this industry needs to learn from. I'd argue photorealism is in most cases a futile endeavour and tends to age much worse than stylistic art.
 

Gundy2010

Member
Now I hope Telltale follow Arc's steps and spend more time with its engine tech, instead of mass producing new titles that look god awful.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
This was a really great watch, and I hope these techniques gain some traction in the industry even though I know that's a hopeless optimism.

If the industry as a whole were willing to sink the time into fine tuning animations like this they wouldn't have shifted away from 2D in the first place.
 

orioto

Good Art™
There is a step where he explains how they removed frames from the animations to make them more 2D, while less smooth.. They should go for "third strike 2D" next time!

Also now their secrets are revealed, i hope SNK and Capcom are listening.
 
I'd argue photorealism is in most cases a futile endeavour and tends to age much worse than stylistic art.

Only if the bar for photo realism moves over time. Also what period of time are we looking at that the game still has to look good despite it's age?

Still looks good for something that's more than 7 years old now.

crysis642013-01-0617-nzb9o.png
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Lost, stop, you're on the wrong side of this!
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Truly excellent visuals. On PS4 at 1080p, the assets are at their absolute best.

Only Naruto Ultimate NInja Storm series and Dragonball Burst Limit comes close to making a 3D anime style

I can't wait to see CC2's next project
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
It doesn't matter that the 'secret' is out there when most developers don't care about going for this art style in the first place.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
Still hope that for the next story mode, since these are 3D models, they can basically just make it a movie. Rather than the Game/VN style they did. It's jarring seeing the characters still when you know they can do more than that.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Still hope that for the next story mode, since these are 3D models, they can basically just make it a movie. Rather than the Game/VN style they did. It's jarring seeing the characters still when you know they can do more than that.

A lot of that is for budgetary and developmental reasons i think....to make an entire full scale movie like MKX with all the assets required would mean a different level of production i think
 
Still hope that for the next story mode, since these are 3D models, they can basically just make it a movie. Rather than the Game/VN style they did. It's jarring seeing the characters still when you know they can do more than that.
No they can't. The amount of detail they put into the animation and look of these models isn't that much different than dealing with 2D. Each frame is as handcrafted as much as possible.
 

Chev

Member
Still hope that for the next story mode, since these are 3D models, they can basically just make it a movie. Rather than the Game/VN style they did. It's jarring seeing the characters still when you know they can do more than that.
Length is a problem. To give you an idea, all the animations for a given character amount to roughly two minutes, excluding intros/outros and instant kills. But story mode is 6 hours! it's a completely different magnitude and they simply couldn't handle it without using such shortcuts.
 

"D"

I'm extremely insecure with how much f2p mobile games are encroaching on Nintendo
And all this time I thought they used magic.
 
It's amazing and at the same time self-obvious (after the fact) that this all was achieved simply by tweaking the normal vectors. It shouldn't be that much work (relatively speaking) even doing it manually, and the results are nothing short of incredible. I expect cel-shaded games to all use this in a few years, the ones that don't will simply look terrible next to the ones that do. This is nothing short of revolutionary.

Edit: OK, I see there was a lot more sorcery involved, but editing normals is genius in its simplicity and the effect it can have.
 
It's amazing and at the same time self-obvious (after the fact) that this all was achieved simply by tweaking the normal vectors. It shouldn't be that much work (relatively speaking) even doing it manually, and the results are nothing short of incredible. I expect cel-shaded games to all use this in a few years, the ones that don't will simply look terrible next to the ones that do. This is nothing short of revolutionary.
It is a lot of work. More or less as much as making high res sprites. The video goes into detail.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
A lot of that is for budgetary and developmental reasons i think....to make an entire full scale movie like MKX with all the assets required would mean a different level of production i think

No they can't. The amount of detail they put into the animation and look of these models isn't that much different than dealing with 2D. Each frame is as handcrafted as much as possible.

Length is a problem. To give you an idea, all the animations for a given character amount to roughly two minutes, excluding intros/outros and instant kills. But story mode is 6 hours! it's a completely different magnitude and they simply couldn't handle it without using such shortcuts.

Well at least there's a reason it is the way it is. Still wish they could do a movie style though. Oh well. It was still good for what it was.
 
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