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Jools Watsham: Nintendo market isn’t healthy enough; explains move to mobile

T

Tom Nook Sawyer

Member
Edit: It's been brought to my attention that Jools may have been referring to the market in general, and not specifically Nintendo.

Jools Watsham of Renegade Kid wrote a really great article over on Gamasutra that discusses why he decided to make his latest game, Totes the Goat, freemium and for mobile platforms. As part of this, he discussed why he didn't make it for a Nintendo platform, unlike his previous games.

What has changed? Well, my love for Nintendo hasn’t changed. But, the market isn’t quite as healthy as it once was for us. I think it began with the launch of Moon Chronicles for the 3DS in May 2014, and was cemented with the release of Xeodrifter for the 3DS in December 2014. Naturally, everyone has their own opinion regarding creative works, so I accept that not everyone will agree with mine. From my perspective, Moon Chronicles and Xeodrifter are both great quality games that were released into a healthy market – a combination for success, right?

Neither game has sold very well, unfortunately. This is not based on my perception of what I think is a good number of units to sell. It is based on the revenue needed to fund a team of four with reasonable salaries and no office space overhead – basic return on investment (ROI). Sure, there are 100 reasons why these games may have not sold more, but the inescapable reality is that the tremendous effort required to create those games versus the reward did not add up in the end. It wasn’t for lack of trying on our part. It wasn’t for lack of support from Nintendo, either. It just didn’t work out.
Click to expand...

The article covers a lot more than that, including how he decided on making it a Freemium game, the process of getting the game featured on the App Store, as well as confirmation that he'll be returning to work on Treasurenauts!

Source: http://gamasutra.com/blogs/JoolsWatsham/20151210/261527/Dreaming_of_Voxel_Goats.php
 
Eteric Rice

Eteric Rice

Member
Honestly I think Moon bombed because of what it was. An FPS game on DS was kind of an oddity. I'd like to track down a copy some day, though.

I wish him well in his future games, though. Maybe one day Nintendo's market will be healthy enough for them to return?
 
W

watershed

Banned
I have no doubt that the 3ds eshop market in particular are not as healthy now as they have been in years past. Fewer people are picking up the system, probably many people have stopped playing, and in general all signs point to Nintendo moving on very soon.

At the same time Moon Remastered or whatever it's called just isn't a very good game. It's an up-port of a ds fps that was only interesting the first time because there were so few ds fps games. Xenodrifter looks cool but repetitive and (I heard) frustratingly difficult. I think Renegade Kid just hasn't done well this gen outside of Mutant Mudds.
 
O

OrbitalBeard

Member
I don't really think their lack of success has much to do with NIntendo's digital market. I don't think they would have fared much better in the Sony or MS ecosystem either.

I don't mean to come across as harsh. I like RK and most of their output.
 
L

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
Xenodrifter is a cool little game that also came to Sony's platforms. Moon Chronicles would have bombed anywhere.
 
J

Jigorath

Banned
OrbitalBeard said:
I'm wondering how well their titles will do in the mobile market. I'm not too hopeful.
Click to expand...

In less than one week, Totes the Goat has been installed over 170,000 times and there are over 105,000 entries on the Game Center leader board (as of Dec. 10, 2015). It has a 4.5 star rating from 104 reviews on the App Store. To me, these numbers are great. A ton of people have played it, and they like it! That is half the battle.

So, all in all, not a ton of cash has been made from video ads / in-app purchases yet, but it is off to a good start for a small game that did not cost a lot to develop.
Click to expand...

It's had a decent start I guess.
 
A

Ansatz

Member
The developer grabbed my attention after I played Mutant Mudds and even though I love metroidvanias I haven't bought Xeodrifter yet. It looks great and I plan on getting it but it hasn't happened yet because there's so much out there that takes up my time. I also really want Dillon 2, Mighty Switch Force 2, Pushmo "4" and many more... I played all the originals, I guess because there were massive holes in Nintendo's release schedule and none of the big online games that soak up game time were out then.

This year has been all about the big guns; Splatoon took up all my summer gaming time (I retired from playing MK8 actively for this), in autumn we had Mario Maker and now the massive world of Xenoblade X. I also had to squeeze Tri Force Heroes into the schedule even though I wasn't planning to get it. I got it because I thought the activity would be at its max near launch and the best period of an online game is the time when everyone is figuring things out.

Not to mention my backlog; To finish Woolly World 100%, start playing Mario & Luigi Dream Team, etc.

So yeah, even though I basically only play games on Nintendo's current systems and I love metroidvanias, I still haven't had time/energy for Xeodrifter. I feel kinda bad because I ask for more of these games. It all has to do with priority, like an EAD/Retro made Metroid would be an instant buy for example.
 
A

atbigelow

Member
I bought both Xeodrifter and Moon Chronicles. Enjoyed Xeodrifter, but Moon Chronicles controls just did not do it for me. Gonna pick up Dementium in the near future; hope it's improved over MC.

Pretty sure if you're gonna do a first-person game on the 3DS, it cannot be a dual analog like setup. Even with the n3DS, it just is not comfortable enough to pull off.
 
S

sörine

Banned
Xeodrifter did around 20k on Steam according to Steamspy. Mutant Mudds did around 80k going by Steamspy, and Jools previously confirmed it did better on Wii U than Steam, and better on 3DS than both. I don't think we've gotten insight on anything else sales wise.
 
6

69wpm

Member
Yeah, well, the bigger the competition gets, the harder it is to get noticed. Their games are fairly niche from my point of view so it doesn't matter if they are high quality. It's simply not everyones cup of tea. Releasing a high quality game simply isn't enough these days.
 
L

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
atbigelow said:
I bought both Xeodrifter and Moon Chronicles. Enjoyed Xeodrifter, but Moon Chronicles controls just did not do it for me. Gonna pick up Dementium in the near future; hope it's improved over MC.

Pretty sure if you're gonna do a first-person game on the 3DS, it cannot be a dual analog like setup. Even with the n3DS, it just is not comfortable enough to pull off.
Click to expand...

I'm playing Dementium atm on the n3DS XL and it controls very good. Much better than Moon C. and even Ironfall. They nailed the default sensitivity imo.

sörine;188793299 said:
Xeodrifter did around 20k on Steam according to Steamspy. Mutant Mudds did around 80k going by Steamspy, and Jools previously confirmed it did better on Wii U than Steam, and better on 3DS than both. I don't think we've gotten insight on anything else sales wise.
Click to expand...

Wasn't Mutant Mudds a success, though?
 
NOLA_Gaffer

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
Being a Nintendo fan is rough these days, because stuck in the middle of the two popular platforms. I don't care for Mobile games and I don't want to invest in a Playstation 4 or Xbox One. Nothing but doom and gloom for those of us in the middle.
 
O

OrbitalBeard

Member
NOLA_Gaffer said:
Being a Nintendo fan is rough these days, because stuck in the middle of the two popular platforms. I don't care for Mobile games and I don't want to invest in a Playstation 4 or Xbox One. Nothing but doom and gloom for those of us in the middle.
Click to expand...

Just enjoy the games. Xenoblade X came out last week. FAST and Stemworld Heist launched today. There's plenty to play if you own both a Wii U and 3DS. And next year, the floodgames open with NX.
 
NOLA_Gaffer

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
OrbitalBeard said:
Just enjoy the games. Xenoblade X came out last week. FAST and Stemworld Heist launched today. There's plenty to play if you own both a Wii U and 3DS. And next year, the floodgames open with NX.
Click to expand...

Of course. Between the games on my shelf and the games on stores shelves that I want that I've yet to buy, I will never run out of software to play.

But still, it's rough being told on a near daily basis that what you enjoy isn't a sustainable product.
 
O

OrbitalBeard

Member
NOLA_Gaffer said:
Of course. Between the games on my shelf and the games on stores shelves that I want that I've yet to buy, I will never run out of software to play.

But still, it's rough being told on a near daily basis that what you enjoy isn't a sustainable product.
Click to expand...

Well, 3DS and Wii U really aren't sustainable ecosystems for much longer, but Nintendo is more aware of this than anyone, so I'm sure they have lots of plans in place for 2016 and beyond.
 
J

Jamix012

Member
Honestly Renegade Kid had like one hit, right? That one 2d platformer with 3D planes. It was novel and at a time when there weren't many indies on the 3DS it was something people ate up. Inevitably the user base has, in general terms, moved over to bigger budget titles and the indie market has saturated somewhat on the 3DS meaning grasses are no longer as green.
 
L

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
Jamix012 said:
Honestly Renegade Kid had like one hit, right? That one 2d platformer with 3D planes. It was novel and at a time when there weren't many indies on the 3DS it was something people ate up. Inevitably the user base has, in general terms, moved over to bigger budget titles and the indie market has saturated somewhat on the 3DS meaning grasses are no longer as green.
Click to expand...

I still recommend Xeodrifter to any metroidvania genre fans, though.
 
R

ryseing

Member
Eteric Rice said:
Honestly I think Moon bombed because of what it was. An FPS game on DS was kind of an oddity. I'd like to track down a copy some day, though.

I wish him well in his future games, though. Maybe one day Nintendo's market will be healthy enough for them to return?
Click to expand...

It was in the Nintendo Humble Bundle. I liked it for what it was. I didn't like the parts where you have to control the drone.
 
@

@MUWANdo

Banned
"Nintendo market isn't healthy enough FOR US". Total clickbait.

I can tell you why Moon Chronicles underperformed: it was an episodic game with a first episode that was way overpriced for what it offered and didn't offer anything compelling to make people come back for later episodes.
 
T

Tom Nook Sawyer

Member
@MUWANdo said:
"Nintendo market isn't heavily enough FOR US". Total clickbait.
Click to expand...

What else would he be referring to? I was trying to be concise--but not misleading--because of the character limit (which my original headlines were too long for). I didn't think the context was unclear by virtue of it being said by Jools himself in an article that describes his transition to mobile, as also described in the headline.
 
I

Infinite Stars

Member
I can't speak for the developers, but I have noticed that the eShop is different. Mutant Mudds launched in January 2012. Back then, the 3DS had fuck all for eShop Titles and Mutant Mudds was able to sell because it was a cool new idea for a starved platform.

Moon Chronicles launched May 2014. The eShop was no longer as starved for content as it had been 2 years ago. Add that the eShop interface on 3DS is still absolute bollocks and it's not hard to see how a newer niche game like Moon Chronicles would fail(As a 70% on Metacritic in May 2014) vs Mutant Mudds(An 80% in January 2012.)

As platforms tend to grow, the best of the best tends to become super reccomended at the expense of the lesser stuff. It's why there's LTTP threads and such, because when you buy into a system at 3 years in there's a different idea of what's good. 3DS at the start of 2012 in had stuff like Ocarina of Time 3D, Street Fighter 4 3D, etc as the "Games to get". Maybe even Mutant Mudds was on those types of lists. In 2014 a large portion of that list has been revised as the good games become lesser compared to better games.

Kind of wish they hadn't made Moon's pricing system be the way it was though, that probably didn't help things.
 
F

fernoca

Member
Title is misleading though.

He's not saying the Nintendo market is not healthy, he said the market (in general) is not healthy and changed.

The following paragraph he talks about visiting the app stores and noticing the recent trend of games, which lead to the creation of Totes and his new focus...while still making 3DS games.

Is why he assumes those 2 games, aside the critiscm, underperformed. Things didn't worked out, because the market (again in general) moved onto different things.

Never he blamed Nintendo, and his title in the article is actually about Totes (Dreaming With Voxel Goats). Heck, the entire article is to explain what lead to the new focus and the creation of Totes.

Just saying, because many sites tend to pick news from titles in here. And Jools still has a great and working relationship with Nintendo and is releasing a few games on Nintendo hardware next year (plus just released Dementium a few weeks ago).
 
@

@MUWANdo

Banned
Tom Nook Sawyer said:
What else would he be referring to? I was trying to be concise--but not misleading--because of the character limit (which my original headlines were too long for). I didn't think the context was unclear by virtue of it being said by Jools himself in an article that describes his transition to mobile, as also described in the headline.
Click to expand...

They're not "moving to mobile", for one; Renegade Kid has released on mobile before, and the game discussed in this blog post is a separate venture from RK anyhow.

"The market isn't healthy enough" implies a general downturn that's affecting everyone, which isn't implied in the blog and would be very hard to prove. "We had a fluke hit that we weren't ever able to recreate" seems more apt.
 
T

Tom Nook Sawyer

Member
fernoca said:
He's not saying the Nintendo market is not healthy, he said the market (in general) is not healthy and changed.
Click to expand...

Actually, this does make sense. I think I may have misinterpreted his statement as applying more to Nintendo than the market in general given the context. Thanks for explaining.

@MUWANdo said:
They're not "moving to mobile", for one; Renegade Kid has released on mobile before, and the game discussed in this blog post is a separate venture from RK anyhow.

"The market isn't healthy enough" implies a general downturn that's affecting everyone, which isn't implied in the blog and would be very hard to prove. "We had a fluke hit that we weren't ever able to recreate" seems more apt.
Click to expand...

Glad you elaborated; this was a lot better than the accusation of intentional clickbait.
 
C

Colonel Mustard

Banned
peanutbutterlatte said:
Honestly I've never played an RK game that was standout; maybe that itself is the problem. We'll see how Steamworld Heist does I guess.
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Heist is Image and Form. Judging by the scores and success of the first game, I think Heist will do fine. SRPGs do well on Nintendo platforms anyway.

Mutant Mudds Super Challenge will be the big test. I think being part of the Nindies@Home thing, having special launch price and being a crossbuy title will help with it's adoption. Pushing it to January is also a pretty good idea.
 
V

vagabondarts

Member
When mobile fails will any healthy markets remain?

I bought two 3DS games from this company and hated both of them. Anecdotal, sure, but I've avoided everything else they've released since then.
 
T

TheGreatMightyPoo

Banned
I have no doubt the indie market on non-mobile is tough but Renegade Kid needs to step up their game as well. Mudds is awesome but everything else is kind of blah. I once thought they were the pinnacle of an indie developer on Nintendo consoles, then played a bunch of their games.
 
J

JoeM86

Member
vagabondarts said:
When mobile fails will any healthy markets remain?

I bought two 3DS games from this company and hated both of them. Anecdotal, sure, but I've avoided everything else they've released since then.
Click to expand...

I fear for the mobile market.

This morning, we got word that a THIRD Pokémon app since November is to end support, with less than a year of being active.

Japanese developers/publishers are having to kill support of their titles like crazy, such as Game Freak with Solitiba.

Something is amiss
 
F

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
I think a few factors played into this, one, this might be my opinion, but i believe indie titles have stronger successes on the WiiU than the 3DS, thats just the type of crowd that would buy more indie titles that arent platformers. and two, well believe moon atleast, was a FPS on a handheld, and a handheld not known for its FPS controls.
 
I

Infinite Stars

Member
JoeM86 said:
I fear for the mobile market.

This morning, we got word that a THIRD Pokémon app since November is to end support, with less than a year of being active.

Japanese developers/publishers are having to kill support of their titles like crazy, such as Game Freak with Solitiba.

Something is amiss
Click to expand...

Wait, which apps have ended support since November?

I think the issue with mobile is that a lot of the views on mobile being this big open market are wrong. I've noticed with my friends that they tend to play only one or two mobile games. It's not like Wii, DS, 3DS, PC, PS4, Xbox One, etc, where the attach rate is high. The big wide audience seem to play one or two games(Clash of Clans and Candy Crush) but play them to an almost insane degree.
 
J

Jon Carter

Member
I don't think they could have handled Moon Chronicles any worse than they did. I got the first episode on sale and I still felt ripped off. Seriously it's one hour long and they had promised much longer than that. Why did the game have to be so freaking expensive? The DS game was already made and there's nothing very impressive about the updated graphics. Shame the project was handled so poorly because I would have liked to play the full game but notlikethis.gif

About Xeodrifter, at least at first glance there is not much that sets this game apart from all the other retro-style indie Metroidvanias.

They need to be smarter about the games they develop. I've noticed that Nintendo gamers generally don't care about having two of something similar on the same platform. Gunman Clive 2 disappointed, for example, because no matter how great it is, people already had Gunman Clive 1 and they didn't particularly need another. You have to provide something new and fresh to interest them.
 
ArtHands

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Jamix012 said:
Honestly Renegade Kid had like one hit, right? That one 2d platformer with 3D planes. It was novel and at a time when there weren't many indies on the 3DS it was something people ate up. Inevitably the user base has, in general terms, moved over to bigger budget titles and the indie market has saturated somewhat on the 3DS meaning grasses are no longer as green.
Click to expand...

His games are mostly good. Xeodrifter is actually very fun but its a little short.
 
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