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Official HBM2 memory standard posted.

S

ScepticMatt

Member
jedec2yhror.png


For use in upcoming GPU like Polaris/Pascal and Zen-based APUs that could be used in next-gen consoles.


Key specs:
1, 2 or 4 stacks.
1024 bit interface width per stack
up to 8 layers per stack (up from 4) in dual channel mode
up to 1 GB per layer (up from 256 MB)
1 GHz clock (up from 500 MHz)

Scaleable from 1 to 32 GB and 256 GB/s to 1 TB/s.

chipogsyz.png

multichip7jqfm.png
Click to expand...
Press release:

ARLINGTON, Va., USA – JANUARY 12, 2016 – JEDEC Solid State Technology Association, the global leader in the development of standards for the microelectronics industry, today announced the publication of an update to JESD235 High Bandwidth Memory (HBM) DRAM standard. HBM DRAM is used in Graphics, High Performance Computing, Server, Networking and Client applications where peak bandwidth, bandwidth per watt, and capacity per area are valued metrics to a solution’s success in the market. The standard was developed and updated with support from leading GPU and CPU developers to extend the system bandwidth growth curve beyond levels supported by traditional discrete packaged memory. JESD235A is available for free download from the JEDEC website.

JESD235A leverages Wide I/O and TSV technologies to support up to 8 GB per device at speeds up to 256 GB/s. This bandwidth is delivered across a 1024-bit wide device interface that is divided into 8 independent channels on each DRAM stack. The standard supports 2-high, 4-high and 8-high TSV stacks of DRAM at full bandwidth to allow systems flexibility on capacity requirements from 1 GB – 8 GB per stack.

Additional improvements in the recent update include a new pseudo channel architecture to improve effective bandwidth, and clarifications and enhancements to the test features. JESD235A also defines a new feature to alert controllers when DRAM temperatures have exceeded a level considered acceptable for reliable operation so that the controller can take appropriate steps to return the system to normal operation.

“GPUs and CPUs continue to drive demand for more memory bandwidth and capacity, amid increasing display resolutions and the growth in computing datasets. HBM provides a compelling solution to reduce the IO power and memory footprint for our most demanding applications,” said Barry Wagner, JEDEC HBM Task Group Chairman.
Click to expand...

https://www.jedec.org/news/pressrel...ndbreaking-high-bandwidth-memory-hbm-standard
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
i-7 level Zen CPU with 16GB HBM at 756GB/s and 8TLOP AMD GPU packed into an APU for PS5, calling it now
 
M

MrChocolate

Member
Inuhanyou said:
i-7 level Zen CPU with 16GB HBM at 756GB/s and 8TLOP AMD GPU packed into an APU for PS5, calling it now
Click to expand...

I remember when people were predicting a huge 2GB for PS4/ONE back in 2012... Funny days.

Next gen will be quite something with something like HBM2...
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
MrChocolate said:
I remember when people were predicting a huge 2GB for PS4/ONE back in 2012... Funny days.

Next gen will be quite something with something like HBM2...
Click to expand...

Well the stacks only come in 1 (8GB max) 2(16GB max) or 4(32GB max) anyway.

Until HBM3 or whatever comes around, middle of the road is what i'm going with.

More than the amount of RAM, i think the bandwidth upgrade will matter more going into the next generation. I think that the days of RAM upgrade sizes from console to console being 5, 6, 7 or even 8 times is unfeasible even 3 years from now.

i-7 level zen CPU, 16GB HBM at 756GB/s and 8TLOP AMD GPU packed into a 14(or maybe even 10?) nm process APU is my final verdict for the PS5. The CPU is gonna be a huge revelation compared to the Jaguar
 
D

Darkstorne

Member
DerZuhälter;192063968 said:
Heed my advice people. Upgrade next year not this year.
I give the same advice every year.
Click to expand...

Given that I have a 970, I'll be heeding that advice this year =)

I don't like upgrading parts unless I'm at least doubling performance. Guessing that will be the 1170, not the 1070.
 
C

Canis lupus

Member
Inuhanyou said:
i-7 level Zen CPU with 16GB HBM at 756GB/s and 8TLOP AMD GPU packed into an APU for PS5, calling it now
Click to expand...

Octacore 2.9Ghz AMD Zen2 CPU, 32GB HBM3 at 1TB/s, 10TFLOP GPU from R9 600 series + extra low power cpu and slower 4GB ram for standby/background tasks.

Basically specs from mid/late 2018 for a late 2019 console.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Canis lupus said:
Octacore 2.9Ghz AMD Zen2 CPU, 32GB HBM3 at 1TB/s, 10TFLOP GPU from R9 600 series + extra low power cpu and slower 4GB ram for standby/background tasks.

Basically specs from mid/late 2018 for a late 2019 console.
Click to expand...

I don't think that would be feasible in an APU though...unless i am underestimating the progress of tech?
 
T

ThoseDeafMutes

Member
MrChocolate said:
I remember when people were predicting a huge 2GB for PS4/ONE back in 2012... Funny days.

Next gen will be quite something with something like HBM2...
Click to expand...

We almost got 4GB PS4, it was quite late in the game they switched to 8 because the technology turned out to make it affordable in time.

If you think the PS4 is going to be on the market as long as the X360 was without a replacement (8 years) then sure, we can talk about crazy ram speculation and stuff. But if PS5 is coming out in 2018 as part of a 5 year cycle, we're not going to wind up with the same kind of jump in power.

The X360/PS3 -> XB1/PS4 was about a normal jump in GPU power, but in an abnormally long cycle. It was also an abnormally low CPU improvement. In a normal space of time, 5 years, we should thus not expect a greater improvement than we got from an 8 year gap last time. Not unless they want to return to consoles with higher power draws and higher price tags.

16GB HBM (2GB OS reserve) might actually be a reasonable amount depending on how high the performance of the GPU is. Something like 24 might be fine, 32 seems too high for the timeframe.
 
S

Saintruski

Unconfirmed Member
DerZuhälter;192063968 said:
Heed my advice people. Upgrade next year not this year.
I give the same advice every year.
Click to expand...

If you do that every year that means never upgrade...or is that the joke.
 
D

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
ThoseDeafMutes said:
We almost got 4GB PS4, it was quite late in the game they switched to 8 because the technology turned out to make it affordable in time.

If you think the PS4 is going to be on the market as long as the X360 was without a replacement (8 years) then sure, we can talk about crazy ram speculation and stuff. But if PS5 is coming out in 2018 as part of a 5 year cycle, we're not going to wind up with the same kind of jump in power.
Click to expand...

Next gen RAM was mostly at least 8x current gen RAM.

Xbox 64 MB
Xbox 360 512 MB
Xbox One 8 GB

PS1 2 MB + 1 MB
PS2 32 MB + 4 MB
PS3 512 MB
PS4 8 GB

Nintendo 64 4 MB
Gamecube 40 MB
Wii 88 MB
WiiU 2 GB

Going by that we can easily expect 64 GB Ram in next gen consoles.
 
0

00ich

Member
Is HBM a clear improvement for discrete CPUs? Is there any Intel or AMD roadmap indicating any use of HBM for discrete (=not APUs) desktop CPUs?
 
S

Saintruski

Unconfirmed Member
darkinstinct said:
Next gen RAM was mostly at least 8x current gen RAM.

Xbox 64 MB
Xbox 360 512 MB
Xbox One 8 GB

PS1 2 MB + 1 MB
PS2 32 MB + 4 MB
PS3 512 MB
PS4 8 GB

Nintendo 64 4 MB
Gamecube 40 MB
Wii 88 MB
WiiU 2 GB

Going by that we can easily expect 64 GB Ram in next gen consoles.
Click to expand...

Ps5 and Xbox 2 priced at 800 dollars confirmed?
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I expect the generation to move to PS5 in 2019...with this in mind, what realistic standard would fit in an APU at 130-150w power on a 16nm finfet process?

We have to look at it carefully.

GPU requirements are going down power wise but they are still gonna be somewhat high.

I don't think high end GPU power is going to be as big a priority next gen considering that the hold ups for the current gen are CPU's below i3's in power, and we've been getting great visuals already with what we have.

Hence my 8tflop number. But i'd even go lower, 6tflops is my minimum expectation.

HBM ram...just based on the fact that we're just now moving to this new standard, its gonna take some time to ramp up. 16GB would be perfectly adequate for the jump in GPU power, with hopefully around the same OS reservation(2 to 4 GB). If its lower, that would be great though. This comes with the need for bandwidth to use all that RAM, which is where the strength of HBM comes in. 756GB/s is going to give us significant increases, even if its not the absolute highest.

I base that on the fact that the PS4 had 176GB/s even though at the time of launch, the highest was around 300GB/s or so, about half.

The main part of the unit will be the CPU, and that's where the Zen cores come in. Its absolutely imperative that AMD is working on a CPU standard that can compete with modern day i5's and i7's in a reasonable form factor and power draw, because that is where the PS5 and XB1 are going to see their biggest jumps from last generation in terms of pure capability. I still expect 8 cores, the same as jaguar, but significantly more powerful ones, although they may be clocked about the same level for power draw purposes
 
W

WolvenOne

Member
Inuhanyou said:
Well the stacks only come in 1 (8GB max) 2(16GB max) or 4(32GB max) anyway.

Until HBM3 or whatever comes around, middle of the road is what i'm going with.

More than the amount of RAM, i think the bandwidth upgrade will matter more going into the next generation. I think that the days of RAM upgrade sizes from console to console being 5, 6, 7 or even 8 times is unfeasible even 3 years from now.

i-7 level zen CPU, 16GB HBM at 756GB/s and 8TLOP AMD GPU packed into a 14(or maybe even 10?) nm process APU is my final verdict for the PS5. The CPU is gonna be a huge revelation compared to the Jaguar
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with this. Eventually even RAM gets into the arena of diminishing returns. That's not to say that double or even triple the RAM for the PS5 isn't feasible, but there does come a point where the cost is going to outweigh the benefit.

Besides, you're right. With better bandwidth we should be able to stretch RAM a bit further.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
darkinstinct said:
Next gen RAM was mostly at least 8x current gen RAM.

Xbox 64 MB
Xbox 360 512 MB
Xbox One 8 GB

PS1 2 MB + 1 MB
PS2 32 MB + 4 MB
PS3 512 MB
PS4 8 GB

Nintendo 64 4 MB
Gamecube 40 MB
Wii 88 MB
WiiU 2 GB

Going by that we can easily expect 64 GB Ram in next gen consoles.
Click to expand...

You can't go by that because advances aren't moving that fast in order to allow 64GB in an APU configuration.

We don't really need so much ram to start with, this gen's 8GB was overkill already to the point where they knocked off a big portion for OS tasks just because the bandwidth allocation could not properly siphon it all for gaming anyway(I think the limit was like 5.72 something for rendering on a scene?)

HBM's big thing is huge bandwidth increases, that will properly be utilized next gen to great effect, to the point where 16GB would sing all it could.
 
T

ThoseDeafMutes

Member
darkinstinct said:
Next gen RAM was mostly at least 8x current gen RAM.

...

Going by that we can easily expect 64 GB Ram in next gen consoles.
Click to expand...

Yes, trends continue until they suddenly don't. Every generation until the last one had seen a dramatic increase in clock speed. Instead, we saw a decline in clockspeed and a shift to 8 (low power) cores. Every generation until the last one saw a new media format that dramatically increased the storage space available to games. Dual layer BD stuck around. Unless we're shifting to 200GB discs there's no need for such a dramatic amount of system memory, and I pity global data caps for the day 1 updates to those games. 8GB of PC ram was a fairly common thing by the time PS4 came out, 16GB is somewhat common now, 32 is possible but extremely rare. In 2 years time, 24-32 will be somewaht common for high end gaming rigs. It might be possible to see such figures in a PS5 @ 2018, but I would not say 64GB is a smart bet.

It's also not true that memory increases have seen linear 8x increases every interval, because the 360 -> PS4 was an abnormally long generation. 8 years, 1.6 generations long! So a mere normal 8x increase is actually a lower increase compared to previous time intervals.
 
S

Saintruski

Unconfirmed Member
Inuhanyou said:
You can't go by that because advances aren't moving that fast in order to allow 64GB in an APU configuration.

We don't really need so much ram to start with, this gen's 8GB was overkill already to the point where they knocked off a big portion for OS tasks just because the bandwidth allocation could not properly siphon it all for gaming anyway.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head Console gamers should really be looking for better CPUs and GPUs and stop want more ram, that's not what's holding them back. The ps4 has plenty.

They are really just dreaming of expensive consoles :p
 
S

Saintruski

Unconfirmed Member
BramVD said:
not really because by the time they will come out, it'll be affordable to put 32-64GB of ram in it
Click to expand...

DDR3 took a new ram standard to drop to a cheap price for that much ram. Consoles don't need ram when they can invest it in places they need it more.
 
L

LeleSocho

Banned
I'm totally ok with a 8GB vram and 256GB/s bandwidth card... come on Nvidia/AMD give me a card with the performance of a gtx970 with this memory at ~300€
 
D

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
Inuhanyou said:
You can't go by that because advances aren't moving that fast in order to allow 64GB in an APU configuration.

We don't really need so much ram to start with, this gen's 8GB was overkill already to the point where they knocked off a big portion for OS tasks just because the bandwidth allocation could not properly siphon it all for gaming anyway(I think the limit was like 5.72 something for rendering on a scene?)

HBM's big thing is huge bandwidth increases, that will properly be utilized next gen to great effect, to the point where 16GB would sing all it could.
Click to expand...

Memory density doesn't follow a plan. We thought we'd be stuck at 2 GB Ram for this gen for a reason. And then they managed to double memory density and did it again in rapid succession. Just because it's not possible now doesn't mean it's not possible in three years.

This gens loading times say we need more Ram. And devs will say they want 4x the bandwidth and 8x the amount. There is never too much Ram for a developer.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
darkinstinct said:
Memory density doesn't follow a plan. We thought we'd be stuck at 2 GB Ram for this gen for a reason. And then they managed to double memory density and did it again in rapid succession. Just because it's not possible now doesn't mean it's not possible in three years.

This gens loading times say we need more Ram. And devs will say they want 4x the bandwidth and 8x the amount. There is never too much Ram for a developer.
Click to expand...

Loading times this gen have more to do with HDD speeds and bandwidth amount than the RAM.

And also devs say everything, they aren't always going to get what they want. CliffyB and Epic wanted 2.5 TFLOPS in PS4 and XB1, but that was never in the plan. Game console makers have to be smart and pragmatic about their approaches to cost and viability.
 
C

Canis lupus

Member
Inuhanyou said:
I don't think that would be feasible in an APU though...unless i am underestimating the progress of tech?
Click to expand...

Why would it not?

"Octacore 2.9Ghz AMD Zen2 CPU, 32GB HBM3 at 1TB/s, 10TFLOP GPU from R9 600 series + extra low power cpu and slower 4GB ram for standby/background tasks."

Might seem overwhelming right now, but what about 3 and a half years in the future? Those specs are mid to high range, except for the ram. The AMD equivalent(R9 380X/390) that would be in a PS5 if it came out late next year is already a 4/5TFLOP console, and we're about to witness a grand leap forward in the upcoming years thanks to FinFET and HBM.

Not to mention both platform holders will have reasons to get the highest specs as possible next round. MS is still hurting from the weak console perception, Sony will want better hardware to accommodate VR if that's still a thing by then.
 
T

ThoseDeafMutes

Member
Canis lupus said:
The AMD equivalent(R9 380X/390) that would be in a PS5 if it came out late next year is already a 4/5TFLOP console, and we're about to witness a grand leap forward in the upcoming years thanks to FinFET and HBM.
Click to expand...

The 980ti is like 7TFlops (the specs ITT called for 10) and sips 250w alone. Maxwell is a pretty power efficient architecture. The timeframe being discussed is 2 years away, the timing is wrong for a GPU that powerful at an affordable price.
 
Q

qa_engineer

Member
Inuhanyou said:
Well the stacks only come in 1 (8GB max) 2(16GB max) or 4(32GB max) anyway.

Until HBM3 or whatever comes around, middle of the road is what i'm going with.

More than the amount of RAM, i think the bandwidth upgrade will matter more going into the next generation. I think that the days of RAM upgrade sizes from console to console being 5, 6, 7 or even 8 times is unfeasible even 3 years from now.

i-7 level zen CPU, 16GB HBM at 756GB/s and 8TLOP AMD GPU packed into a 14(or maybe even 10?) nm process APU is my final verdict for the PS5. The CPU is gonna be a huge revelation compared to the Jaguar
Click to expand...


Don't forget they're moving to finfet as well which means even more computational power in a smaller and power efficinet package.
 
C

Canis lupus

Member
ThoseDeafMutes said:
The 980ti is like 7TFlops (the specs ITT called for 10) and sips 250w alone. Maxwell is a pretty power efficient architecture. The timeframe being discussed is 2 years away, the timing is wrong for a GPU that powerful at an affordable price.
Click to expand...

Do you expect PS5 to arrive in 2018? MS might have a 5 year cycle to get the year head start again but I don't see why Sony would cut the life of PS4 short. AMD reports 30-40% more performance with 60% power saving with Polaris, and that's just gen 1. It might not reach 10TFLOP but it's gonna be in the ballpark and certainly higher than the 980ti.
 
C

copelandmaster

Member
Guys, don't comape AMD and NVIDIA flops, compare red to red and green to green. Otherwise, the numbers don't mean anything.

Inuhanyou said:
i-7 level Zen CPU with 16GB HBM at 756GB/s and 8TLOP AMD GPU packed into an APU for PS5, calling it now
Click to expand...

This is a pretty good ballpark. But at the same time, that GPU is below Fury X spec in terms of AMD FLOPS.

Granted, they'll be able to do more with better software/hardware "extra sauce" in a few years, plus a comparatively better CPU, RAM and bus speeds.

But...Fury X power lvl in 2018/2019...4x-5x power increase vs PS4...when we'll be moving to 4k...

Not looking forward to effectively midrange hardware again :/
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
copelandmaster said:
This is a pretty good ballpark. But at the same time, that GPU is below Fury X spec in terms of AMD FLOPS.

Granted, they'll be able to do more with better software/hardware "extra sauce" in a few years, plus a comparatively better CPU, RAM and bus speeds.

But...Fury X power lvl in 2018/2019...4x-5x power increase vs PS4...when we'll be moving to 4k...

Not looking forward to effectively midrange hardware again :/
Click to expand...

That's why i intentionally aimed down to midrange hardware. I'm going on the assumption that Sony want to repeat the PS4's success and go for functionality and efficiency both power/wattage and cost wise above just putting powerful components in the box.

8tflops right now is far beyond what is necessary to run something like Infiltrator in an actual game in real time(which ran on a 680 mind you in the tech demo version)

I think that is still quite a jump and largely satisfactory for GPU power.

Also, not every game is gonna be 4k compatible, i don't even think many will be outside of smaller less demanding titles or PS4 remasters. We have to remember that we are piling on next gen rendering in addition to 4 times the pixels unnecessarily, which is probably going to eat up a lot of the GPU time alone just rendering at that res. I'd take 1080p with great IQ again and far better visuals myself.

But the ability to scale everything to 4k in the menus is a must.

What you say about 4-5 power increase also is puzzling to me. Are you not taking into account the HBM? The bandwidth and RAM alone will give a huge boost, and the CPU, if they do get Zen working how we'd hope, will be a beast monster compared to Jaguar.

There's far more to the power of the overall console than just the GPU, as we are abundantly made clear this gen

Mitsurugi said:
What are the chances Nintendo uses HBM2 in the NX console?
Click to expand...

0. Maybe GDDR5, if they took notes. HBM is too supply constrained right now to worry about console vendors.

I'd assume though that they will go for DDR3 again, just much higher bandwidth, and more EDRAM.
 
M

Mitsurugi

Neo Member
Well, I'll be disappointed if they don't use it. It seems like they'd really benefit from it. I was wondering if some small but fast quantity of it could be used as a substitute for EDRAM.
 
P

pooptest

Member
ThoseDeafMutes said:
The 980ti is like 7TFlops (the specs ITT called for 10) and sips 250w alone. Maxwell is a pretty power efficient architecture. The timeframe being discussed is 2 years away, the timing is wrong for a GPU that powerful at an affordable price.
Click to expand...
I doubt nvidia will ever find themselves in a console ever again. Of their own doing, of course.

Side note: can't wait for Zen FX and HBM GPU to upgrade!
 
T

ThoseDeafMutes

Member
Canis lupus said:
Do you expect PS5 to arrive in 2018? MS might have a 5 year cycle to get the year head start again but I don't see why Sony would cut the life of PS4 short. AMD reports 30-40% more performance with 60% power saving with Polaris, and that's just gen 1. It might not reach 10TFLOP but it's gonna be in the ballpark and certainly higher than the 980ti.
Click to expand...

I do expect it to be 2018, or perhaps 2019. They won't want to give a year head start to Microsoft if they can avoid it, and the PS4 was profitable or near-profitable from the start with no massive loss to recoup. Microsoft has the incentive to start the next gen race as soon as possible.

Also, regarding claims of power savings and performance increases, everyone exaggerates or selectively picks data. If it was 40% more powerful than Fury X while using 40% of the power (60% reduction as you say) that would be the largest increase in perf / watt since probably the 1990s. We will see what it winds up actually being.

Mitsurugi said:
Well, I'll be disappointed if they don't use it. It seems like they'd really benefit from it. I was wondering if some small but fast quantity of it could be used as a substitute for EDRAM.
Click to expand...

The obvious middle ground is using an XBO style setup, but with a moderately larger pool of the superfast memory, and using DDR4 instead of DDR3 to attain much higher clockspeeds on the main pool. This would allow a large pool of "cheaper" ram (16gb DDR4 vs 16gb GDDR5, for example) that is still better than the XBO's setup in bandwidth terms.
 
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