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Minecraft VR poisoning the well (Polygon, Toms Hardware etc)

Man

Member
Minecraft VR will mean a lot for the medium this year and the press went hands-on with it two weeks ago. The game offers two modes for VR:

A virtual cinema mode in which the game shows in 3D stereoscopic in front of you on a huge cinema screen. Apparently you can control some selection with your gaze as well. This mode supposedly works really well for what it is.

With a touch of a button however you enter full-immersion mode where you control the character in traditional FPS style. This comes as a no shock to most who follow VR developments but traditional FPS traversal is poison in VR. Minecraft has instant and fast motions in all directions with big drops, jumps etc. Users become sweaty and motion-sickness develop rapidly.

Lo-and-behold various impressions on twitter following the event, culminating in hands-on videos like this by Polygon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDhlEwXvdZU and Tom's hardware: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/minecraft-vr-oculus-rift-nausea,31309.html
Tom's hardware said:
The Nausea

On my first playthrough of the game, I briefly played in the virtual living room before hopping into the actual Minecraft world. However, the feeling of nausea came around after a few seconds in the unique VR view. Throughout the demo, I had to be cautious about the speed of my head turns and my character’s overall movement. When combined, those two actions can result in a dizzying experience.

Eventually, the nausea somewhat subsided near the end of the demo. However, there were issues with the game recording software, so video footage wasn’t available. I had a slightly better experience on my second run through of the game (which is the video included in this story), but my dizziness lingered as I made my way through the map.

Nausea has not been an issue for me in most of the VR games I’ve played. Even EVE: Valkyrie, with its fast-paced space flight action, didn’t make me feel sick, but Minecraft, a simple game of creativity and survival, gave me an uncomfortable experience in VR. It seems, then, that the virtual living room was created for those who might have issues playing the game in a true VR mode.

Ultimately Oculus (ironically) are on the verge of poisoning the VR-well in a spectacular fashion right now in their reach for a huge-get with the Minecraft IP. Microsoft... I don't think they really care one way or the other (see: Hololens bs marketing etc). Everyone will want to try this in VR with huge expectations. If the first-impressions are bad (with grown-ups and younger audiences alike) it could turn a huge amount of people off VR.

The solution is thankfully really simple: Just drop the full-immersion mode completely!
Other suggestions is to replace it with: Teleportation ala Budget Cuts or Tunneling.

The cinema mode isn't a full VR experience but Oculus and Microsoft *really shouldn't* shoehorn this non-VR game into full-immersion mode with the current design. It is not designed for VR at all as-is.
 

Nikodemos

Member
I'm pretty certain Sony will not allow full-immersion mode on PSVR, if the problems are widespread. They've demonstrated Nintendo-like fervor in eliminating any potential health issues when it comes to their product.
 
I don't think it's a "small percentage" of people who get motion sick in VR, I think it's just that some games are really not suited for it and never will be. Some things just don't feel right. Source: I have a DK2 and most of the games I've tried on it (admittedly with tacked on or hacked in support on games that it wasn't designed for - example Minecraft) were nausea inducing. I need to try some games that are designed from the ground up for it.

That's why I'm super interested to see how ADR1FT pulls it off as that gives the player full motion I believe.
 

BeforeU

Oft hope is born when all is forlorn.
Wouldn't higher fps solve this? human eyes can see more than 120fps as far as I know, and if you make the VR world look believable just like real life, you shouldn't have any problem
 
The solution is thankfully really simple: Just drop the full-immersion mode completely!

The cinema mode isn't a full VR experience but Oculus and Microsoft *really shouldn't* shoehorn this non-VR game into full-immersion mode with the current design. It is not designed for VR at all as-is.

I have zero problems playing a fast paced game like Quake in VR. Why should people like me be denied the option of playing it from a first person perspective?

This is a perfect middle ground. It lets people who can't handle first person stuff yet (because at least some people will adjust... I know some won't) still enjoy the game, but it doesn't hamstring it for people like me that don't get sim sick so easily.
 

Man

Member
Is this something that can be fixed or will a percentage of people just always have motion sickness in VR?
It has to do with locomotion and design. Generally speaking:
This concerns on-foot FPS experiences mostly. If your virtual character is walking but your real-body is sitting still then you will become motion-sick.
If the virtual body is standing still however (driving a car, piloting a mech) then it proves no problem and no-motion sickness is developed.

The only VR on-foot FPS experiences that work are the ones where you walk with your real-life physical body (see Vive room-scale VR).

This is a perfect middle ground. It lets people who can't handle first person stuff yet (because at least some people will adjust... I know some won't) still enjoy the game, but it doesn't hamstring it for people like me that don't get sim sick so easily.
There are always exceptions. I think the option should be hidden behind walls of warnings and obfuscations for the general public if to be included at all. VR-sickness is really damaging and a lasting feeling.
 

Scrawnton

Member
I don't see any problem, the 3DS can blind people.
/s
I remember the articles about the 3D making people sick at the 3DS launch though.
No joke, I had to go to an eye doctor and start wearing glasses a few months after getting the 3ds. I have a stigmatism. Could be completely unrelated to the 3ds, but I can't look at the 3d on that system without my eyes hurting. Not touching VR with a ten foot pole.
 

FGMPR

Banned
Would Mirror's Edge VR kill me?

It would be the worst. Not only for the constant movement at high speed, but also the heights factor, not too mention the in-game cut-scenes that take control away from the player--those in particular are serious barf material.
 

Nikodemos

Member
From what I remember posted on this forum, linear motion is fine, as is, to a certain amount, rotation. The action which causes the most issues is what's generally referred to as strafing. Also, taking camera control away from the player is instantaneously nausea-inducing.
 
It has to do with locomotion and design. Generally speaking:
This concerns on-foot FPS experiences mostly. If your virtual character is walking but your real-body is sitting still then you will become motion-sick.
If the virtual body is standing still however (driving a car, piloting a mech) then it proves no problem and no-motion sickness is developed.

The only VR on-foot FPS experiences that work are the ones where you walk with your real-life physical body (see Vive room-scale VR).

I don't know the percentages, so I'm not going to use words like 'most'. But please, stop this. There are definitely a lot of us who don't get sim sick from traditional FPS games. It isn't a given. It isn't everyone. I finished Doom 3 and Half Life 2 in VR. I've played a bunch of Quake on my Gear VR and DK2. I loved those experiences.

Do they make a lot of people motion sick? Yep! They do. But they don't make everyone sick. That's why options are good. Because trust me, if it doesn't make you motion sick, you're going to want to play something like Minecraft in immersion mode. I know I do.

I have zero interest in buying the game if it's just a virtual theater.

From what I remember posted on this forum, linear motion is fine, as is, to a certain amount, rotation. The action which causes the most issues is what's generally referred to as strafing.

No, for the people that it effects, the problem is more turning with a thumb stick. That's why games offer comfort modes that snap turn in 45 degree increments.
 

Orbis

Member
Minecraft works fine in first person VR, provided you don't use the mouse or right stick to move the view. Using my head resulted in little to zero nausea. But that does limit how you can play the game. Apart from that it was one of the most immersive experiences.

This was a third person mod for Oculus two years ago but I can't see how they'd get around it.
 
It has to do with locomotion and design. Generally speaking:
This concerns on-foot FPS experiences mostly. If your virtual character is walking but your real-body is sitting still then you will become motion-sick.
If the virtual body is standing still however (driving a car, piloting a mech) then it proves no problem and no-motion sickness is developed.

The only VR on-foot FPS experiences that work are the ones where you walk with your real-life physical body (see Vive room-scale VR).


There are always exceptions. I think the option should be hidden behind walls of warnings and obfuscations for the general public if to be included at all. VR-sickness is really damaging and a lasting feeling.

So they should wait for the full immersion mode until they can do room-scale on the oculus then?

That doesn't seem TOO bad - if people are going to make room for any room-scale thing in their house it will be Minecraft.

EDIT - can they get around it by having a brief fade to black every time you do a turn via a stick? and make the turns much bigger so you do 45 degree movements via the stick and anything less by using your head and walking?
 

simonski

Member
A Budget Cuts teleport movement system would get rid of any sickness, but y'know, would change the gameplay quite a bit.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I'd like to know how this official version of minecraft differs in implementation to Minecrift, the unofficial mod that has been around for ages now. Is one less prone to induce nausea?

Is comfort mode not enough if you make constant changes in direction like you would in minecraft? From the video it looks like the turn snaps are really low angle - way less than 45 degrees at a time.

Maybe some kind of tilt mechanism for strafing, like golem uses would be useful?
 

Kysen

Member
Xbox controller plus VR = waste of time. Just isn't well equipped enough to handle the task at hand. Gaze control is just a band aid to avoid having to use analogue sticks for viewport control.
 
It has to do with locomotion and design. Generally speaking:
This concerns on-foot FPS experiences mostly. If your virtual character is walking but your real-body is sitting still then you will become motion-sick.

Can become motion-sick. Not will. I played plenty of things on an Oculus DK1, including Minecraft, which didn't make me motion sick.
But I agree that there's should be warning about this. I don't see why those of us who don't suffer from motion-sickness should be denied experiences like this because of people who can't handle them though.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
the guy in the video said it felt uncomfortable any time he was moving. Maybe there is something fundamentally odd/wrong with how minecraft handles motion generally. He says it feels digital - full speed or stop - which should be ok (no acceleration). So whats up with it?

This is really disconcerting because minecraft in VR is something I was super looking forward to - minecrift on DK1 gave me a tantalisting taste of how amazing it might be
 

Man

Member
Can become motion-sick. Not will. I played plenty of things on an Oculus DK1, including Minecraft, which didn't make me motion sick.
The majority will become motion sick. I've been demoing VR experiences on stands many times now over the last two years and FPS experiences creates that result in the majority. Even if it produced motion sickness in 'only' 10% that's a way too high number. Offer an obfuscated mode hidden behind security messages for people like yourself but don't (significantly) damage the majority.
 

orava

Member
I'm pretty certain Sony will not allow full-immersion mode on PSVR, if the problems are widespread. They've demonstrated Nintendo-like fervor in eliminating any potential health issues when it comes to their product.

It also makes the whole "sony experience" feel really sanitized and bland.
 
The majority will become motion sick. I've been demoing VR experiences on stands many times now over the last two years and FPS experiences creates that result in the majority. Even if it produced motion sickness in 'only' 10% that's a way too high number.

Way too high for what? To justify not including something that 90% would be fine with?
I totally agree that it should have warnings to make sure people aren't going to go in unaware of the potential issues, but people should have the option.
There also a difference between a 10 minute demo and being able to adjust to something in your own home. This could be something people get over with enough time and some adjustments to the game.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
The cinema mode isn't a full VR experience but Oculus and Microsoft *really shouldn't* shoehorn this non-VR game into full-immersion mode with the current design. It is not designed for VR at all as-is.

I think that argument is more aimed at games that regularly take control of the game camera etc. Minecraft should be fairly well suited to VR as you are always in control of the camera.

If minecraft cannot be well adapted to VR, what does that mean for any game that requires you to be exploring an open world environment? These problems need to be solved


This also makes me wary of Oculus if they really are giving this a pass due to the value of the brand. Are they also going to do the same with Elite Dangerous after they've stated clearly that any game on the oculus store should run well in VR with a GTX970 level card?
 

Man

Member
There also a difference between a 10 minute demo and being able to adjust to something in your own home. This could be something people get over with enough time and some adjustments to the game.
10 minutes is all it takes for someone to drop VR.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I'm pretty certain Sony will not allow full-immersion mode on PSVR, if the problems are widespread. They've demonstrated Nintendo-like fervor in eliminating any potential health issues when it comes to their product.

It also makes the whole "sony experience" feel really sanitized and bland.

Where on earth is this stuff coming from? You'd think PSVR was out or something.

the guy in the video said it felt uncomfortable any time he was moving. Maybe there is something fundamentally odd/wrong with how minecraft handles motion generally. He says it feels digital - full speed or stop - which should be ok (no acceleration). So whats up with it?

This is really disconcerting because minecraft in VR is something I was super looking forward to - minecrift on DK1 gave me a tantalisting taste of how amazing it might be

Minecraft is going to be THE example of why you can't just plop a game into VR and expect it to work. Minecraft's locomotion is another "gopro on ice" situation where you just glide about at max speed with the occasional lowrent headbob to try and make it a bit more realistic. Thats fine for the prehistoric world of 2D screens, but try and fool your body with it and VR and youre on a vomit comet.

If they wanted to do Minecraft VR right, a version where you play the part of an Enderman hybrid that uses teleportation tosses like Budget Cuts would be a better idea.
 

Man

Member
A Budget Cuts teleport movement system would get rid of any sickness, but y'know, would change the gameplay quite a bit.
This would be perfect. Dress it up as a 'crystal ball' magic feature or something.

You are naive if you don't think there will also be a lot of other bandwagon jumpers shoehorning VR modes into FPS games.
And so? This is Minecraft VR. Officially developed in cooperation between Oculus and Microsoft.
Nobody cares about a [Insert FPS] mod-job.
 
I think maybe Timesplitters 2 didn't have an on screen reticule at all times, which is something that can make people more likely to become motion sick.

Yeah, I think it's a mixture of that, the bobbing motion during movement (some games just seem spongy and trigger it) and the way in which the gun / reticule moves and then forces the camera to catch up with it. I've just watched some old footage and I still feel the same.

Really low FOV in FPS games does that for me.

I'd always assumed it was tied to the movement, but this could be playing a part for me too. I seem to recall The Witness has a pretty narrow FOV, so I'll have to try that and see if affects me.
 

artsi

Member
It's not the best VR experience, but we will have stuff like this for some time, while developers (and consumers) learn what's actually good VR.

It won't kill VR, just something to endure for a while.
 
The cinema mode isn't a full VR experience but Oculus and Microsoft *really shouldn't* shoehorn this non-VR game into full-immersion mode with the current design. It is not designed for VR at all as-is.
It's not the game's fault, but rather the tech which isn't there yet. When your in game body moves but your physical one doesn't it creates a disconnect. Supposedly Vive with its body tracking and room scale would be suited for that but I haven't tried myself.

I do agree however, they shouldn't be trying to shoehorn games into vr just cause they can. Vr has already a plethora of issues standing in the way of becoming a successful media, they really don't need a popular franchise that wasn't carefully designed with current tech limitations in mind making a bad impression. That kinda of thinking was imo, which killed motion controllers.
 

KJRS_1993

Member
No joke, I had to go to an eye doctor and start wearing glasses a few months after getting the 3ds. I have a stigmatism. Could be completely unrelated to the 3ds, but I can't look at the 3d on that system without my eyes hurting. Not touching VR with a ten foot pole.

I'm the very same, The regular 3DS gave me terrible headaches when I actually tried to use the 3D. I also couldn't see the 3D very well at all.

Wondering if VR will make me feel similarly ill.

It also makes the whole "sony experience" feel really sanitized and bland.

Wtf does that even mean.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Where on earth is this stuff coming from? You'd think PSVR was out or something.



Minecraft is going to be THE example of why you can't just plop a game into VR and expect it to work. Minecraft's locomotion is another "gopro on ice" situation where you just glide about at max speed with the occasional lowrent headbob to try and make it a bit more realistic. Thats fine for the prehistoric world of 2D screens, but try and fool your body with it and VR and youre on a vomit comet.

If they wanted to do Minecraft VR right, a version where you play the part of an Enderman hybrid that uses teleportation tosses like Budget Cuts would be a better idea.

there has to be some way to handle movement through a world that is more than just teleporting though. I don't know what is so fundamentally different with minecraft that'd make it do this, or it is just one of the first examples of walking around freely so it is surfacing issues other games will also have. If it is just the way you move - eg head bob or speed, then they could adapt that. I'd rather have minecraft with slower walking or different locomotion than based on teleportation

I know you design around the limitations of VR, but I really want some games where you can properly explore.

I don't want people to misuse the term 'shoehorn'. It doesn't mean no existing games can be adapted for VR. This game should be a good candidate if adapted properly.
 
It would be the worst. Not only for the constant movement at high speed, but also the heights factor, not too mention the in-game cut-scenes that take control away from the player--those in particular are serious barf material.

The original Mirror's Edge made me motion sick even without VR.
 

artsi

Member
It doesn't work. You need full 360º tracking for Budget Cuts teleport to work. Impossible in Rift now.

But Oculus Rift has 360º tracking for the HMD out of the box?

If you're talking about the controllers and occlusion, you could still aim the teleport sight with a gamepad, right?
 
Like I mentioned in the other thread they need to get it working with both controller and room scale eventually. Seems like it's best not to release it if it's not a good VR experience and doesn't adhere to best VR practices that have been agreed upon by the developer community.

Also, is there no way to simply disable right stick controls when using a standard controller in VR? It's going to cause a lot of problems.
 

Nikodemos

Member
Where on earth is this stuff coming from? You'd think PSVR was out or something.
They've repeatedly stated that if something can't be made to run perfectly on PSVR, it gets cut out. A health-issues-free experience is of paramount importance, which is why you see stuff like mandatory time-outs implemented in kid-friendly stuff like Golem.
 
Right now, VR is not mass market stuff. It's for enthusiasts, so it's probably fine if some (most?) games feel weird and uncomfortable. Developers are still learning how to work with this thing. One day, the prices will come down and the hardware will be less clunky: that's when Minecraft and other games need to feel perfect.
 
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