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AMD Confirms Sony PlayStation Neo Based on 14nm CPU and Polaris?

Cyriades

Member
During AMD’s 2016 Investor Day, the company disclosed its growth strategy. Many of the focal points are in motion already, or even public. For example, AMD sealed the deal with THATIC, Chinese government owned investment fund – which will see their x86 processors enter Chinese enterprise and government sectors in a big way. Second part of the strategy was to finally become a fabless semiconductor, with all the risks and rewards involved with that move. The company spun off its packaging facility, making a total cash intake in excess of $664 million – plus all the unannounced grants that the company is bidding for.

Still, perhaps one of the biggest future announcement was carefully hidden on the slide below:

AMD_Growth_Strategy.jpg


We wondered what the “new semi-custom business in 2H 2016” statement mean. Our baseline was that it’s probably a placeholder for the Nintendo NX console, which should be announced during Tokyo Game Show 2016. However, according to sources in the know, this placeholder has another existing customer, whose name is SONY.

During a recent interview, Roy Taylor – AMD / RTG’s head executive for Alliances, Content and VR went to defend the decision to only launch mainstream and performance products based on the Polaris architecture. “The reason Polaris is a big deal, is because I believe we will be able to grow that TAM [total addressable market] significantly.”

With Nvidia launching the GeForce GTX 1070 and 1080 for the Enthusiast market, and preparing its third Pascal chip – the GP106 – to fight Polaris 10/11, such approach might be a costly mistake. if the Radeon would be the only product family where the Polaris GPU architecture would make an appearance. In the same interview, Roy said something interesting: “We’re going on the record right now to say Polaris will expand the TAM. Full stop.”

AMD_Roadmap_RTG_GPU.jpg


At the same time, we managed to learn that SONY ran into a roadblock with their original PlayStation 4 plans. Just like all the previous consoles (PSX to PSOne, PS2, PS3), the plan was to re-do the silicon with a ‘simple’ die shrink, moving its APU and GPU combination from 28nm to 14nm. While this move was ‘easy’ in the past – you pay for the tapeout and NRE (Non-Recurring Engineering), neither Microsoft nor Sony were ready to pay for the cost of moving from a planar transistor (28nm) to a FinFET transistor design (14nm).

This ‘die-shrink’ requires to re-develop the same chip again, with a cost measured in excess of a hundred million dollars (est. $120-220 million). With Sony PlayStation VR retail packaging being a mess of cables and what appears to be a second video processing console, in the spring of 2014 SONY pulled the trigger and informed AMD that they would like to adopt AMD’s upcoming 14nm FinFET product line, based on successor of low-power Puma (16h) CPU and Polaris GPU processor architecture.

SONY_PlayStation_VR_RetailContents.jpg


The only mandate the company received was to keep the hardware changes invisible to the game developers, but that was also changed when Polaris 10 delivered a substantial performance improvement over the original hardware. The new 14nm FinFET APU consists out of eight x86 LP cores at 2.1 GHz (they’re not Zen nor Jaguar) and a Polaris GPU, operating on 15-20% faster clock than the original PS4.

According to sources in the know, the Polaris for PlayStation Neo is clocked at 911 MHz, up from 800 MHz on the PS4. The number of units should increase from the current 1152. Apparently, we might see a number higher than 1500, and lower than 2560 cores which are physically packed inside the Polaris 10 GPU i.e. Radeon R9 400 Series. Still, the number of units is larger than Polaris 11 (Radeon R7 400 Series), and the memory controller is 256-bit wide, with GDDR5 memory running higher than the current 1.38 GHz QDR. Given the recent developments with 20nm GDDR5 modules, we should see a 1.75 GHz QDR, 7 Gbps clock – resulting in 224 GB/s, almost a 20% boost.

Internally known as PlayStation Neo, the console should make its debut at the Tokyo Game Show, with availability coming as soon as Holiday Season 2016 – in time for the PlayStation VR headset.

http://vrworld.com/2016/05/11/amd-confirms-sony-playstation-neo-based-zen-polaris/
 

Guess Who

Banned
This makes it sound like Neo exists mainly because just doing a new SoC ended up being a financially smarter move than a die shrink of the existing one.
 

chadskin

Member
With Sony PlayStation VR retail packaging being a mess of cables and what appears to be a second video processing console, in the spring of 2014 SONY pulled the trigger and informed AMD that they would like to adopt AMD’s upcoming 14nm FinFET product line, based on successor of low-power Puma (16h) CPU and Polaris GPU processor architecture.

Weird wording. What's the connection between the PSVR retail packaging "being a mess of cables and what appears to be a second video processing console" and Sony pulling the trigger on upgraded console components?
 

Thraktor

Member
Thread title's a bit misleading. AMD haven't really confirmed anything here, they've just re-iterated their statement that new semi-custom business will ramp in the second half of this year (which doesn't necessarily mean a commercial product launch in the second half of this year, just that they're starting chip production then). The rest is rumours and assumptions from the author of the article.
 
I'd be surprised if it was polaris. I'd have thought AMD would want to have a discrete shipment under their belt before they did semi custom polaris. Unless it's still a ways out.
 
Weird wording. What's the connection between the PSVR retail packaging "being a mess of cables and what appears to be a second video processing console" and Sony pulling the trigger on upgraded console components?
I think the author tried to get across that PS VR seems to be kind of hacked together to get it working with vanilla PS4s and that a PS4K that is designed with VR in mind would get this stuff done more elegantly (which, of course, probably isn't the case).
 

SerTapTap

Member
Weird wording. What's the connection between the PSVR retail packaging "being a mess of cables and what appears to be a second video processing console" and Sony pulling the trigger on upgraded console components?

That one extra length of wire and converter box really get people up in a tizzy, it's absurd. PEople still believe it's some magic box that adds VR juice to make games the PS4 isn't capable of.
 
At the same time, we managed to learn that SONY ran into a roadblock with their original PlayStation 4 plans. Just like all the previous consoles (PSX to PSOne, PS2, PS3), the plan was to re-do the silicon with a ‘simple’ die shrink, moving its APU and GPU combination from 28nm to 14nm....neither Microsoft nor Sony were ready to pay for the cost of moving from a planar transistor (28nm) to a FinFET transistor design (14nm)....with a cost measured in excess of a hundred million dollars (est. $120-220 million)

With Sony PlayStation VR retail packaging being a mess of cables and what appears to be a second video processing console, in the spring of 2014 SONY pulled the trigger and informed AMD that they would like to adopt AMD’s upcoming 14nm FinFET product line, based on successor of low-power Puma (16h) CPU and Polaris GPU processor architecture.

The only mandate the company received was to keep the hardware changes invisible to the game developers, but that was also changed when Polaris 10 delivered a substantial performance improvement over the original hardware.

So what I gather from this story (whether true or not), is that potentially, Sony originally wanted a die shrink pre-launch, but it was too expensive. However, when PSVR came onto the scene, they said screw it, and pulled the trigger in the spring of 2014 to get said die shrink, whilst keeping the hardware the same. However, they then changed their mind again and said screw it one last time, and decided to go all out with a die shrink and a performance boost (i.e. more substantial hardware change) to boot, which is what we essentially know now as 'Neo'.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
chadskin said:
What's the connection between the PSVR retail packaging and Sony pulling the trigger on upgraded console components?
None - but consider that the author thinks there's an extra GPU in PSVR.
 

Caayn

Member
I don't see AMD confirming anything in that article. All I see is a writer making a lot of assumptions.
 
bahaha, sony trying to catch up with what is already in the xbox one.

Microsoft hasn't even activated the 2nd and 3rd graphics cores that are 2tflops each.

Polaris is based on the xbox one!

sorry, have been visiting misterxmedia.com and parasite76 on twitter lol
 
Polaris 10 is interesting. On paper it would seem twice the power but in reality all that is going to mean is 1080p30 Medium detail on OG PS4 vs 1080p30/60 High/Ultra detail on Neo upscaled to 4k?
 

Kayant

Member
This is a poor article full with too many assumptions and zero new information from what AMD released previously.
 
That's just one slide, we still don't know if its Polaris or not. [most likely it is]

Well, I could believe that they went through an extensive trade study weighing the benefits of porting the existing design to 14nm vs. adopting a new one. That's not just on AMD, though. They have to ask their own internal software and driver developers if they could make the necessary tools work seamlessly with a change in GPU and/or CPU architecture.

Sony would have had a grasp on the costs associated with porting the design to 14nm well ahead of time. AMD would have been able to provide an estimate given 14nm was in development at the time, and the trend of the cost per transistor stagnating was well documented. So I don't at all buy that this would have been a late discovery on their part. At worst, it would have been an open trade that they were leaving contingent on a lot of factors - PS4 market performance, 14nm yield evolution and cost, benefits of architecture that were also contingent on VR success.


It was never satisfactorily made clear that this would be the PS4K rather than the NX.
 
Basically sounds like it would have taken almost the same amount of work to port the current APU as it would to release an APU based on Polaris so they decided to upgrade things and keep it backwards compatible with existing SDK's.
 

Rodin

Member
According to sources in the know, the Polaris for PlayStation Neo is clocked at 911 MHz, up from 800 MHz on the PS4. The number of units should increase from the current 1152. Apparently, we might see a number higher than 1500, and lower than 2560 cores which are physically packed inside the Polaris 10 GPU i.e. Radeon R9 400 Series.

AMD didn't confirm anything, but if this is true, the Neo might end up being pretty far from the 4.2tflops number we've heard so far. It can still reach that of course (with 2304 stream processors), but given a clockspeed of 911MHZ, the 1152 figure would "only" put it at 2.1tflops. Increasing it to 1536 ALUs (the closest number to 1500 that makes sense) would put it at 2.8tflops. 2048 would mean 3.7tflops and 2560 gives us 4.7tflops.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
The slide ('AMD' of the thread title) confirms nothing about any relationship between Polaris and that new semi-custom business in H2. That bullet point is separate and distinct from the preceding point that mentions Polaris.

So that just leaves us with a rumour the site says it heard. Nothing from AMD or AMD material. Further, the site's spec info contradicts the previous leaks substantially. The previous spec was much more believable from a CPU point of view.
 
This makes it sound like Neo exists mainly because just doing a new SoC ended up being a financially smarter move than a die shrink of the existing one.

seems like a logical conclusion. Also means that this is not as much a change in direction, more an experiement. The PS5 could quite possibly still follow the traditional model.
 

ZoyosJD

Member
Is this the report which says the CPU cores are neither Zen or PS4's Jaguar?

Because I'm predicting they may have went with Puma+.

They can call it whatever they want, the shift to 14 nm makes the difference between Jaguar and Puma+ negligible (it was mostly transistor efficiency). It retains an extremely high level of compatibility for devs regardless which of those members of the cat family they use.
 

Vena

Member
I don't quite get this....

Article (well the source) and title don't match as I don't see even the slightest of AMD mention of Polaris, but then the other information on clockspeed and ALUs puts this at... ~2.8TF which is a far cry from the suppose ~4TF previously rumored?
 

MuchoMalo

Banned
It was never satisfactorily made clear that this would be the PS4K rather than the NX.

Not sure if serious.

Either way, it's for neither. It's just an engineering sample.

Skipping E3 huh? I guess they ain't ready to cut the price and/or reveal PS4 slim just yet.

And Nintendo allegedly delayed the NX announcement to September to avoid sharing the spotlight with Sony and MS. That's rich!
 

JaggedSac

Member
This makes it sound like Neo exists mainly because just doing a new SoC ended up being a financially smarter move than a die shrink of the existing one.

Since there is a rumored Bone slim, MS must have ponied up the dough for a die shrink of their existing chip even if it wasn't financially sound. Interesting.
 

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
This article reveals an interesting thing: If it was too expensive for Sony to just do a die shrink it sure is too expensive for Microsoft as well who barely sell 50 % of PS4's numbers. And AMD said they have three new hardware contracts. So will Microsoft release better hardware as well? Maybe just use it for system stuff and keep the power available to games the same? I don't expect Neo this year but Microsoft's new console. Wasn't there a rumour that it was already in production and releasing as soon as August?
 
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