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Corpsepyre · May 17, 2016

Ok, so maybe PC enthusiast GAF can help me here. I was playing Uncharted 4 at a friend's place recently, and it blew my mind as to how smooth the game was, at 30 fps no less. It didn't feel like it was running at that Framerate at all. It's been a while since I've played a console title too, so maybe it's that, but I came home and tried locking some of my games on PC to 30 to see how they would feel. There are some games I have that fluctuate wildly, but are always above 30 such as Ryse, Crysis 3 and some more. I don't have the beefiest PC or anything, so I wanted to lock these few titles to 30 for a more stable experience.

It just didn't feel the same. The games would look and feel choppier and not smooth at all. It would feel as if they were playing way below 30 even. I remember games like Dead Space would be smooth on my PS3 back in the day, at 30 fps, but when I tried locking the same game on PC, it would feel terrible.

Is this normal? Are PC games just not meant to be experienced at 30, or maybe I need to mess with some settings to get that stable Uncharted-like experience on the PC?

Hoping someone can chime in.

BakkaGames · May 17, 2016

Mouse input doesn't feel right at 30fps. If you're playing with a controller it's not that bad.

Enter the Dragon Punch · May 17, 2016

How are you locking it? Use RTSS and cap the framerate at 30 so you get consistent frametimes. Anything after is likely placebo

Dictator93 · May 17, 2016

Framerate lock
vs not

also object motion blur

Danny Dudekisser · May 17, 2016

I honestly don't know what it is. Like, I've tried playing Way of the Samurai 4 and Divinity 2 on the PC, which were both built as 30fps games, and I just found them completely unplayable. Yet I have no issue with a 30fps-locked console game.

Even g-sync and using RTSS to lock the frame rate didn't help.

orochi91 · May 17, 2016

I had the exact same thing happen to me.

If I recall correctly, you have to manually set the refresh rate to adaptive "1/2 refresh rate" through NVIDIA's Inspector app or through a 3rd-party app for AMD cards.

bargeparty said:
The only way I got a smooth 30fps was using nvidiainspector to lock it to 30 and use adaptive refresh at half refresh rate.

I use that setup to play Rise of the Tomb Raider on my TV and it works very well.

+1

Salsa · May 17, 2016

its just placebo

play them side by side

other than that, just silly variables

- your computer is running at a smoother framerate RIGHT before you launch the game, so you instantly see the refresh rate halved
- youre sitting closer to a monitor
- maybe you're playing with a mouse and keyboard which is more precise
- motion blur
- etc

DoublePayje · May 17, 2016

Also: How was the light? The more light in the room, the worse fps feel. Thats why cinemas can do 24fps movies, because its totally dark. Would feel choppy in bright daylight.

StMeph · May 17, 2016

Enter the Dragon Punch said:
Use RTSS and cap the framerate at 30 so you get consistent frametimes. Anything after is likely placebo

Are you really suggesting that people can't distinguish between 30fps and 60fps?

Edit: on rereading, I suppose you mean that any difference in the comparison after locking is placebo

Corpsepyre · May 17, 2016

orochi91 said:
I had the exact same thing happen to me.

If I recall correctly, you have to manually set the refresh rate "1/2 refresh rate" through NVIDIA's Inspector app or through a 3rd-party app for AMD cards.

Hmm, interesting. I wonder if it has something to do with gaming on a monitor and a TV.

LCGeek · May 17, 2016

They are different due to API, OS, and hardware differences. Ideally though 30fps on a pc that is purposefully been tweaked for 30fps will shit on consoles granted the engine of the game isn't crap itself. I avoid every limiting my fps or hz to 30 on pc displays most aren't made for that for anymore and I don't always trust 3rd party progrms to do it right or fix bad frame pacing.

People also mentioned inputs being different as well, pc inputs can have a much higher polling rate mic alone up too 1000mhz or 1ms. This will make 30fps seem quite sluggish in certain titles.

Maztorre · May 17, 2016

OP, download Riva Tuner Statistics Server and use the settings there to lock the framerate to your preference. You won't look back I promise, there is a night and day difference comparing Witcher 3's in-game frame limiter to using RTSS in combination with vsync through nvidia inspector.

bargeparty · May 17, 2016

The only way I got a smooth 30fps was using nvidiainspector to lock it to 30 and use adaptive refresh at half refresh rate.

I use that setup to play Rise of the Tomb Raider on my TV and it works very well.

Lister · May 17, 2016

1 - Mouse and keyboard input does not feel at all responsive at 30 FPS. Use a game pad.

2 - Turn on blur effects that you might have turned off. It helps smooth out animations.

But basically it's the same thing. It may very well be a placebo effect of you knowing your PC game should not be running like ass. Also sitting near a monitor means you can see more detail, and you might notice the absence of the more detailed 60 FPS output (your eyes/visual cortex is absorbing and processing more detail at 60 FPS than at 30) that you are used to.

EpicBox · May 17, 2016

Is there some difference between the fluidity of TV versus monitor?

AcceptableGhost · May 17, 2016

Some games seem to have poor 30 FPS frame limiters on PC. I have found "Adaptive Half Refresh Rate Vsync" feature on Nvidia cards to work pretty well (I used it for Dark Souls 3). RTSS works good too.

Edit: Also yeah 30 FPS mouselook feels pretty awful.

Salsa · May 17, 2016

I really stand by the refresh rate on PC right before thing, and I barely see it being brought up

on a TV you're looking at almost everything at 24fps, then you launch a game at 30fps "omg smooth"

on a PC you're looking at everything in the desktop at at least double the refresh rate you get when you then launch a game at a lower framerate, so it's jarring in the opposite way it is on a TV

I really do think it's mostly that.

Jangowuzhere · May 17, 2016

The motion blur definitely makes the framerate feel much smoother.

LCGeek · May 17, 2016

EpicBox said:
Is there some difference between the fluidity of TV versus monitor?

Quite a bit if you pay for it and the game properly supports gsync or light boost which offers fluidity you can basically only get on crt/plasma like screen vs typical lcds. Higher rerefreshrate due to pixel persistence will offer a smoother image even if the FPS is the same because the refresh state is much quicker now.

Console gamers should use real displays and not tvs if they want good picture quality or motion. All you gotta do is make sure the TV accepts the signal or get a decent transcoder which the market is flooded with these days.

You're not off the mark Salsa.

Mohasus · May 17, 2016

That's because you know how these games run at 60 fps.
It takes a while to get used to 30fps, but after you do, it seems smooth enough.

I had no problems playing FF Type-0 (30 fps lock) on PC.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-the-case-for-30fps-pc-gaming

slash000 · May 17, 2016

In my personal opinion I think you're less likely to notice framerate on a TV, sitting back quite a way (even on large TV's) as compared to sitting up close to a computer monitor.

Uncharted probably feels smooth because it was designed as the type of game for that and work just fine. It's fined tuned for that, in gameplay, design, and in controls. It's not like a fast paced first person shooter controlled with a mouse. Throw in good image quality and some motion blur and some cinematic shenanigans and yeah 30 fps on a console on a TV can look and feel amazing.

But take just any ol' pc game and lock it to 30 and you'll get mixed results depending on your preference.

Froz3n · May 17, 2016

It's to do with frame times. If you're not capping it properly, you can have uneven frametimes, and it will feel like it's stuttering slightly. Using some programs give better frametimes than others. Usually, RTSS is the best option on PC. (rivatuner statistics server).

Anon67 · May 17, 2016

Enter the Dragon Punch said:
How are you locking it? Use RTSS and cap the framerate at 30 so you get consistent frametimes.

Basically this. I use this method to get smooth frametimes at 30 FPS in Dark Souls 3. Worked great for the Witcher 3 as well. If you are using a controller, using V-Sync may help (and will also eliminate screen tearing).

vanty · May 17, 2016

The TV may have had some motion settings turned on which makes everything look like some freaky high frame rate.

Hasney · May 17, 2016

Likely a placebo, or your friends TV had things like team insertion turned on.

Corpsepyre · May 17, 2016

taahahmed said:
Basically this. I use this method to get smooth frametimes at 30 FPS in Dark Souls 3. Worked great for the Witcher 3 as well. If you are using a controller, using V-Sync may help (and will also eliminate screen tearing).

So, you're suggesting I turn Vsync on along with capping the Framerate at 30 using RTSS? Interesting. I never switched Vsync on while capping the fps.

Lord Error · May 17, 2016

It helps that Uncharted 4 has the absolute best motion blur I've seen in a game yet. It's freaking magic. Most other console games don't feel that good running at 30FPS. But with PC, the big issue is properly locking the frame pacing, and worse still, the mouse feedback is really bad at 30FPS - it's below that threshold of 1:1 response that you expect from the mouse, where the controller feedback is much more lax.

levious · May 17, 2016

Salsa said:
I really stand by the refresh rate on PC right before thing, and I barely see it being brought up

on a TV you're looking at almost everything at 24fps, then you launch a game at 30fps "omg smooth"

on a PC you're looking at everything in the desktop at at least double the refresh rate you get when you then launch a game at a lower framerate, so it's jarring in the opposite way it is on a TV

I really do think it's mostly that.

Doesn't the ps4 os run at 60hz/fps?

1.21Gigawatts · May 17, 2016

I read that a lot. I don't feel like Uncharted 4 is particularly smooth for a 30FPS game. I mean, its just a very solid 30FPS with proper per object motion blur, and thats exactly how it feels to me.
Maybe some people are so used to games constantly dropping below 30 that they now experience a solid 30FPS as particularly smooth.

I'm sure when I go back to a few rounds of Battlefront and then back to Uncharted I will notice that its noticably less smooth.

Guess Who · May 17, 2016

levious said:
Doesn't the ps4 os run at 60hz/fps?

Moreover, while films are 24Hz, lots of TV shows are 30 or even 60 (for sports broadcasts, soap operas, and some others).

Corpsepyre · May 17, 2016

Lord Error said:
It helps that Uncharted 4 has the absolute best motion blur I've seen in a game yet. It's freaking magic. Most other console games don't feel that good running at 30FPS. But with PC, the big issue is properly locking the frame pacing, and worse still, the mouse feedback is really bad at 30FPS - it's below that threshold of 1:1 response that you expect from the mouse, where the controller feedback is much more lax.

I have seen motion blur mentioned several times here. I have it switched off mostly in my games. It would give me a headache :/ will look into turning it on and checking that way. Some games have both blur and motion blur. Should I turn both on?

jellies_two · May 17, 2016

I think UC4 30fps is the best implementation of 30fps on PS4. The anti-aliasing, and whatever they do when you move the camera is very convincing.

If you play UC4 multiplayer at 60fps then go back to single player there is just a moment where you register that it isn't quite the same but within seconds it just feels normal.

Honestly I think this is pretty good news because in some quarters there is this "60fps or bust" campaign being rammed down our throats but actually unless you need twitch aiming - which is normally some intense competitive title - then UC4 30fps in other games is just fine and would rather they put double the power into the rest of the game: resolution, geometry, AI, physics.

Dictator93 · May 17, 2016

Corpsepyre said:
I have seen motion blur mentioned several times here. I have it switched off mostly in my games. It would give me a headache :/ will look into turning it on and checking that way. Some games have both blur and motion blur. Should I turn both on?

Uncharted uses per-object and screen (camera) motion blur.

Most games do not separate the settings. So leave "motion blur" on, blur probably refers to depth of field.

Lord Error · May 17, 2016

Corpsepyre said:
I have seen motion blur mentioned several times here. I have it switched off mostly in my games. It would give me a headache :/ will look into turning it on and checking that way. Some games have both blur and motion blur. Should I turn both on?

There's an in-game motion blur, and there's the TV interpolation called Motion-Flow (etc, depends on TV manufacturer). You want TV interpolation off for sure, as it introduces insane amount of input lag. In-game motion blur really depends on how quality the implementation is. In most games it's nothing to write home about. In UC4... well you've seen it yourself at your friend's, thus this thread you made.

Zackat · May 17, 2016

UC4 is made by wizards. It's the only way I can explain how good that game looks on a PS4.

Gbraga · May 17, 2016

+1 for the "use half refresh rate + RTSS" team. It changes everything.

EDIT: Borderless Fullscreen + RTSS might be enough for some games, too.

Salsa · May 17, 2016

levious said:
Doesn't the ps4 os run at 60hz/fps?

you barely do anything on the PS4 OS before launching a game compared to using a desktop PC, besides the fact that using a mouse is much more accurate than surfing through menues with a dpad

Guess Who said:
Moreover, while films are 24Hz, lots of TV shows are 30 or even 60 (for sports broadcasts, soap operas, and some others).

eh, I still stand by it, you mostly watch stuff shot at 24fps

Zojirushi · May 17, 2016

Well, what the others have said regarding tools on PC plus it also depends on the game, like there are certain ways of making 30 fps feel way smoother.

I was playing Forza Horizon 2 on XBone and those 30fps feel amazing.

Then I was going back to PC trying to lock some stuff to 30 and it just wasn't the same.

Then I had the same thought you had and tried some other games on console but nope, a lot of them still felt bad (before getting used to it of course) at 30 fps.

Right now I'm playing AC Syndicate on PC locked to 30 and honestly it's pretty good, my guess is it's because the game looks pretty soft by default so the 30 fps blur when turning the camera isn't that jarring.

So yeah, there's no inherent difference between PC and console 30 fps. It's just a mix of using the right tools on PC, getting used to dat 30 fps feel in the first place and game dependent graphics stuff that make it feel more fluid.

Also make sure to check your framtimes in Afterburner after playing for a while, if you get constant spikes above 33,33ms you got your explanation for the choppiness.

UnrealEck · May 17, 2016

Corpsepyre said:
Ok, so maybe PC enthusiast GAF can help me here. I was playing Uncharted 4 at a friend's place recently, and it blew my mind as to how smooth the game was, at 30 fps no less. It didn't feel like it was running at that Framerate at all.

Feels like 30 FPS to me.
In fact I could even tell exactly when it was dipping frame rate because the control response was dropping.

For the most part it's good but I definitely have been noticing drops here and there. I don't think this means it's dropping way below 30 necessarily. I've found that when you cap frame rate and GPU usage reaches to 98-99% I start to notice controls becoming less responsive. Even if the frame rate is at the cap (obviously just barely).

I think I know what you mean though comparing 30 FPS on console with 30 FPS on PC. I've found things like motion blur (amount, not necessarily quality) being maxed and pre-rendered frames to the lowest brings a closer-to-console experience.

Someone also mentioned the TV you use. I think that's also a part of it. Which monitoring device you use.

crazysapertonight · May 17, 2016

there could be promblems with framepacing.

Use rivatuner to lock fps

Anon67 · May 17, 2016

Corpsepyre said:
So, you're suggesting I turn Vsync on along with capping the Framerate at 30 using RTSS? Interesting. I never switched Vsync on while capping the fps.

Tbh I mainly use Vsync to get rid of tearing. I'm pretty sure Vsync helps to create stable frametimes to a degree BUT if you don't want the extra input delay (the extent varies from game to game) from it, only use RTSS since it's generally good by itself.

LCGeek · May 17, 2016

Zackat said:
UC4 is made by wizards. It's the only way I can explain how good that game looks on a PS4.

Or accept the PS4 is a pretty potent system in the history of consoles. Besides having one of the best apis you can use the hardware was no real slouch at launch except the cpu.

goodfella · May 17, 2016

RTSS does help, though the frame pacing is not perfect, it is better than I have managed to get through any other methods.
Also, this is a real issue, please don't dismiss it as being placebo or to do with the difference between a monitor and TV.
The gist of it seems to be that console games that are designed for 30fps make sure that the framepacing is perfect. (Apart from a few outliers such as bloodbourne)

EDIT: BTW, to everyone using RTSS (+half refresh), do you cap at 30 or 31? I have seem to find that the ideal cap varies from game to game.

In fact I even noticed that having my external monitor active while playing the witcher 3 caused issues. That took me a long time to troubleshoot, it was not fun at all.

nOoblet16 · May 17, 2016

-Proper Framepacing
-Object motion blur (if this is not implemented properly it can give games a choppy look, like how 30FPS TLoU Remastered feels choppier than PS3 version which ran at an unstable framerate, because the object motion blur was not optimised for 30FPS in the PS4 version)
-Framerate capper
-Controllers work better at low framerate than 1:1 input like the mouse

In that order...not having any one of these will make your game feel choppier in comparison to something like UC4. It's not UC4 doesn't feel like 30FPS and feels like its more, it's just that you've had bad 30FPS experience in comparison.

OverturePT · May 17, 2016

I feel like using the half refresh rate trick helps but it still feels like crap to be played with the mouse, I feel like a controller is a must for 30fps gaming and it doesn't really feel different from a console if played from the same distance.

mephixto · May 17, 2016

Playing at 30 fps on consoles always feels like moving a tank with the controller.

Wagram · May 17, 2016

I'm a PC and console gamer and I honesty don't care if it's 30 or 60. It just needs to be stable on either setting.

mcrommert · May 17, 2016

DoublePayje said:
Also: How was the light? The more light in the room, the worse fps feel. Thats why cinemas can do 24fps movies, because its totally dark. Would feel choppy in bright daylight.

That's not a thing...movies work at 24hz because it captures an aesthetic that is pleasing...games are about controlling well so 60+ is always superior. Also games actually render at their framerate...movies for obvious reasons are captures of much higher framerates

Gbraga · May 17, 2016

Pixel Warrior said:
I feel like using the half refresh rate trick helps but it still feels like crap to be played with the mouse, I feel like a controller is a must for 30fps gaming and it doesn't really feel different from a console if played from the same distance.

Oh yeah, 30fps on mouse is complete trash.

goodfella said:
The gist of it seems to be that console games that are designed for 30fps make sure that the framepacing is perfect. (Apart from a few outliers such as bloodbourne)

Yeah, definitely. The problem is that even games that are capped at 30 or have a 30fps lock option still have shitty pacing on PC. They just don't give a shit. It's insane to me that using RTSS to lock a 30fps game to 30fps usually gives better results.

Danny Dudekisser · May 18, 2016

mcrommert said:
That's not a thing...movies work at 24hz because it captures an aesthetic that is pleasing...games are about controlling well so 60+ is always superior. Also games actually render at their framerate...movies for obvious reasons are captures of much higher framerates

Movie theaters also aren't totally dark -- they use bias lighting to improve perceived color accuracy and to reduce eye strain. Soo... he was wrong on several points, I guess.

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