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Zalusithix · Oct 27, 2016

Head.spawn said:
How well does this "inside-out" tracking work?

Nobody knows as nobody has used one. Hololens tracking is supposedly spot on (though I have no idea how well it handles low/no light situations). There's no way these sets are using a sensor array as advanced as that though with the price points being targeted.

Even with flawless tracking of the head, there's no guarantee the same tech can be applied to controllers. The position and orientation of controllers can change much faster and is far less predictable than the head. Meanwhile controllers are also smaller and don't always face "out" to empty space so are more easily obscured. I think it's rather telling that while multiple companies have demonstrated markerless inside out tracking of headsets, not one has shown a controller do the same.

Positionally tracked headsets without tracked controllers can potentially get by with hand tracking for general use cases where all interaction happens in a limited field in front of you. This is inadequate for gaming or more advanced interaction with the virtual world though. In those cases your hands can be out of your field of vision, or indeed without any line of sight to the headset in general.

Neuromancer · Oct 27, 2016

Collingwood said:
Ok, reading through this thread, does everyone not realise these are 3rd party headsets?

These aren't Microsoft's.

I mean, it's in the thread title.

I would imagine MS had a role in the general design concept.

theindieboy · Oct 27, 2016

Intresting, but damn are they ugly compared to major Gaming or mobile VR, well we will have to see could be intresting to open up the vr PC market to more competetion as will lead to more evolution and push the medium foward.

Nzyme32 · Oct 27, 2016

theindieboy said:
Intresting, but damn are they ugly compared to major Gaming or mobile VR, well we will have to see could be intresting to open up the vr PC market to more competetion as will lead to more evolution and push the medium foward.

It's not like there wasn't going to be competition without MS. OpenVR already has that set out, but even then it seems a certainty that there are more headsets to come

Alx · Oct 27, 2016

Head.spawn said:
How well does this "inside-out" tracking work?

There's no way to be sure until they give more information, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was related to their object scanning technology (see the sandcastle demo). In that demo the video feed from the camera is analyzed to estimate at the same time the geometry of the object (assuming its shape doesn't change) and the camera motion. Once that geometry is known, you can use the same analysis to estimate the camera position relatively to that object.
Inside out tracking would be similar, replacing the sand castle with pieces of furniture around you and the phone with a camera embedded in the headset.

The math isn't really new, it's mostly a matter of performance (to avoid lag) and reliability.

theindieboy · Oct 27, 2016

Nzyme32 said:
It's not like there wasn't going to be competition without MS. OpenVR already has that set out, but even then it seems a certainty that there are more headsets to come

Yeah but not really from big name manufactures more china imports from what i have seen (tbh these will be made in china) and not getting the press these will imo.

bj00rn_ · Oct 27, 2016

Thread is a clusterfuck . HMDs aren't from MS, the announcement was about Windows 10 content creation. Where did the notion that these HMDs don't have pos tracking come from btw?

TrojanBlade · Oct 27, 2016

This looks like an attempt from MS to have the 'VR? yeah we got that' checkbox checked.

Maintenance · Oct 27, 2016

Can't wait until they officially announce VR for Scorpio and many people that hated VR because of console warz change their tune. Gonna get that wall of shame higher than Trump's wall.

nampad · Oct 27, 2016

Just market it as cheap VR porn solution and it will sell.

Zalusithix · Oct 27, 2016

nampad said:
Just market it as cheap VR porn solution and it will sell.

Cardboard and dozens of other similar cellphone solutions already exist for that. 360 (180 in the case of porn) stereoscopic movies are feasible on any garbage tier VR solution.

Aasir Osu · Dec 9, 2016

Resurrecting this thread, as it will apparently be years before I can start one

, with a wee-bit of info. A video link to Microsoft's WinHEC event yesterday (or the day before).

While most of the news from that event has been dominated by Windows on ARM talk, there was also demonstrations and videos of the Windows Holographic API running on non-hololens devices. The inside-out tracking was mentioned, and the implication (though it's still not totally confirmed) is that I-O would be standard (so maybe even the cheapest devices would have it?). A 360-degree video was also demonstrated on a Chinese VR device that's apparently well known (3Glasses).

Video is here: WinHEC 2016

BeforeU · Dec 9, 2016

TrojanBlade said:
This looks like an attempt from MS to have the 'VR? yeah we got that' checkbox checked.

you do know that not everything revolves around gaming and small petty fights lol

Competing with Sony is least of their worry.

They are trying to make Windows more appealing compare to Android and iOS.

Wollan · Jan 4, 2017

First hands-on with the Lenovo's headset... but without the VR functionality working/active. Everyone is waiting to see if Microsoft is able to deliver on a non-glitchy inside-out tracking for 2017.

http://www.roadtovr.com/lenovos-new...er-price-weight-rift-vive/?platform=hootsuite

Durante · Jan 4, 2017

It's a bit disappointing that they apparently still don't have any working prototype to show off, given it's supposed to release this year.

All of Rift, Vive and PSVR were demonstrated more than a year before their release.

gamz · Jan 4, 2017

TrojanBlade said:
This looks like an attempt from MS to have the 'VR? yeah we got that' checkbox checked.

MS? They just provide the platform. Their OEM's are making the product. What are you talking about?

Zalusithix · Jan 4, 2017

Durante said:
It's a bit disappointing that they apparently still don't have any working prototype to show off, given it's supposed to release this year.

All of Rift, Vive and PSVR were demonstrated more than a year before their release.

What they did show isn't even impressive IMO. No physical IPD setting, headphone jack on the bottom, and the design seems to give no fucks about glasses wearers.

LukasTaves · Jan 4, 2017

Wollan said:
First hands-on with the Lenovo's... but without the VR functionality working/active. Everyone is waiting to see if Microsoft is able to deliver on a non-glitchy inside-out tracking for 2017.

http://www.roadtovr.com/lenovos-new...er-price-weight-rift-vive/?platform=hootsuite

How's the tracking on HoloLens? I think it's safe to say it will be at least the same, right?

Wollan · Jan 4, 2017

LukasTaves said:
How's the tracking on HoloLens? I think it's safe to say it will be at least the same, right?

Sure. There's a significant difference though:
If AR screws up tracking for a split second the overlayed objects shift a bit... so what.
If VR screws up tracking for a split second the whole virtual world mismatches with your brain and you upend your stomach.

Zalusithix · Jan 4, 2017

LukasTaves said:
How's the tracking on HoloLens? I think it's safe to say it will be at least the same, right?

At least the same? More like at best the same; Hololens is using a far more advanced sensor array.

Alx · Jan 4, 2017

LukasTaves said:
How's the tracking on HoloLens? I think it's safe to say it will be at least the same, right?

Isn't HoloLens using depth sensors ? Those would help making the tracking more reliable compared to regular cameras.
Anyway in the end I suppose the reliability will also depend on available processing resources on the host PC, and the nature of the user environment.

Durante · Jan 4, 2017

I'm still exceedingly skeptical of optical inside-out tracking.
My VR room has 3 white walls.

LukasTaves · Jan 4, 2017

Wollan said:
Sure. There's a significant difference though:
If AR screws up tracking for a split second the overlayed objects shift a bit... so what.
If VR screws up tracking for a split second the whole virtual world mismatches with your brain and you upend your stomach.

Fair enough, the stakes are indeed a lot higher for VR.

Zalusithix said:
At least the same? More like at best the same; Hololens is using a far more advanced sensor array.

Oh, I thought it was using the same, or perhaps a next generation of the same setup. What's the difference between them?

Izuna · Jan 4, 2017

BTW, Rift does not work with Glasses at all.

I can use Gear VR because you can change the focus. I'm hoping these offer the same solution or have more space.

Wollan · Jan 4, 2017

Durante said:
I'm still exceedingly skeptical of optical inside-out tracking.
My VR room has 3 white walls.

Frankly I think it will become a requirement to put up a few markers if the room is white-washed for the foreseeable future. Like, the system will inform you if your room is too vague and that to put up provided markers or some decoration is needed (not the end of the world imo).

The Oculus prototype has upwards and downwards facing cameras however which might just do the trick (even in white-washed rooms).

gamz · Jan 4, 2017

Neuromancer said:
I would imagine MS had a role in the general design concept.

Why would you imagine that?

Zalusithix · Jan 4, 2017

LukasTaves said:
Oh, I thought it was using the same, or perhaps a next generation of the same setup. What's the difference between them?

That's the Hololens sensor array. Four cameras (two pairs to each side) + depth sensing camera + additional high resolution camera.

That's basically what we've seen from all the Holographic HMD sensor arrays: stereoscopic cameras. Very much a cut down solution to bring the cost to reasonable levels, and totally a wildcard when it comes to performance. You wouldn't be getting value HMDs with something like the Hololens array.

Even if it does work well (and that's a big if), there's still the issue of controllers and their tracking capabilities to make any sort of compelling package.

Gestault · Jan 4, 2017

Durante said:
It's a bit disappointing that they apparently still don't have any working prototype to show off, given it's supposed to release this year.

All of Rift, Vive and PSVR were demonstrated more than a year before their release.

I recently refreshed my gaming PC, so I've been trying to scope out a VR solution for less than $300 (ha-ha, I know), but the signs around these aren't exactly encouraging. I want to be impressed, but aside from some product photos, there's not a lot to actually go on. Which is often a bad sign in my experience.

Izuna · Jan 4, 2017

I think for tracking, the solutions are there. The problem is cost.

Xbudz · Jan 4, 2017

Seems like the eye tracking FOVE headset will be at CES.

If I remember correctly, Microsoft invested heavily in this tech. I think the idea behind FOVE is that it can focus rendering performance based on what you're looking at.

https://youtu.be/NjQTJHKL56s

M3d10n · Jan 4, 2017

There are two cameras, but they don't tell if they are depth-sensing or not. Inside-out tracking can work with Kinect-like tech, combined with a accelerometers. I imagine the optical tracking is used to correct the drift from the accelerometers, much like a magnetometer is used to correct the drift from gyroscopes.

BTW, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to use the upcoming Windows VR interface with existing VR headsets.

Zalusithix · Jan 4, 2017

M3d10n said:
There are two cameras, but they don't tell if they are depth-sensing or not. Inside-out tracking can work with Kinect-like tech, combined with a accelerometers. I imagine the optical tracking is used to correct the drift from the accelerometers, much like a magnetometer is used to correct the drift from gyroscopes.

BTW, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to use the upcoming Windows VR interface with existing VR headsets.

Depth sensing cameras like what's in Kinect (time of flight) require an IR emitter. There's no visible emitters in what we can see of the unit, so I'm going to say no, they're just standard cameras. Depth can be calculated by the stereoscopic nature of the two cameras, but that's a rather different thing.

JaggedSac · Jan 4, 2017

Izuna said:
BTW, Rift does not work with Glasses at all.

I can use Gear VR because you can change the focus. I'm hoping these offer the same solution or have more space.

I used a Rift in Best Buy a couple weeks ago with glasses on and it was fine.

Trup1aya · Jan 4, 2017

Damn, i saw this thread revived and thought we'd see some inside out tracking at work.

Alx · Jan 4, 2017

M3d10n said:
There are two cameras, but they don't tell if they are depth-sensing or not. Inside-out tracking can work with Kinect-like tech, combined with a accelerometers. I imagine the optical tracking is used to correct the drift from the accelerometers, much like a magnetometer is used to correct the drift from gyroscopes.

BTW, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to use the upcoming Windows VR interface with existing VR headsets.

I'm sure the optical tracking can be reliable enough if you're just using it to correct drifting in general, and assuming that the user's head is always at the same spot. It would be sufficient for simple desktop scenarios, without much motion except for head rotation.
Tracking the head in the XYZ space is possible in theory (with scale ambiguity), but that's where any tracking issue could be uncomfortable for the user.

Zalusithix said:
Depth can be calculated by the stereoscopic nature of the two cameras, but that's a rather different thing.

I'm not even sure those cameras are supposed to do stereoscopy ; you would need some overlap of their field of views to do that, and they seem to be looking away from each other. They're probably using both cameras to generate a wide field of view for better tracking, but not for depth measurement.

MaxiLive · Jan 4, 2017

Xbudz said:
Seems like the eye tracking FOVE headset will be at CES.

If I remember correctly, Microsoft invested heavily in this tech. I think the idea behind FOVE is that it can focus rendering performance based on what you're looking at.

https://youtu.be/NjQTJHKL56s

Whoa that video, what happened to the second half of it?! Looks like someone forgot to cut the video properly

Izuna · Jan 4, 2017

JaggedSac said:
I used a Rift in Best Buy a couple weeks ago with glasses on and it was fine.

I tried to use it and it was IMPOSSIBLE.

Thankfully my glasses are broken so I could pull off the sides and have the lenses sit inside. Even then it hurt my face.

Durante · Jan 4, 2017

Rift is possible to use with smaller frames, but not all that comfortable. Vive has space for larger frames and the potential to move the lenses/screens back in order to free up more depth (though I haven't found that to be necessary). I use it with glasses quite often.

Ghost · Jan 4, 2017

I think they are being just about as honest as you can expect any major corporation to be with this stuff, by which I mean you have to read between the lines here to see that they aren't putting it up against the Rift or Vive in terms of price and they aren't saying it will run the same kind of experiences, this is for VR desktops, VR learning applications, medical software, and a whole bunch of stuff they haven't thought of yet.

I think it's a completely different kind of device to Vive & Rift, and not a particularly interesting one in my opinion, seems like a half step no one is really asking for. I'm sure stereoscopic cameras will work but I very much doubt it has the same level of fidelity and reliability the IR solutions have and more importantly without a way to interact in 3d the software applications are going to be severely limited.

Zalusithix · Jan 4, 2017

Alx said:
I'm not even sure those cameras are supposed to do stereoscopy ; you would need some overlap of their field of views to do that, and they seem to be looking away from each other. They're probably using both cameras to generate a wide field of view for better tracking, but not for depth measurement.

The cameras are tilted outward from center, but not so much that the center of the vision wouldn't be caught by both. This way the tracking system could simultaneously have a wide FoV of the general world, while at the same time having depth perception in a narrow forward facing chunk of it. In effect it could learn the absolute distance of elements within the room as you look at them (within reason) via stereo vision, and then keep track of them with the wide FoV and use relative scale to maintain a semblance of distance tracking.

LukasTaves · Jan 4, 2017

Zalusithix said:
That's the Hololens sensor array. Four cameras (two pairs to each side) + depth sensing camera + additional high resolution camera.

That's basically what we've seen from all the Holographic HMD sensor arrays: stereoscopic cameras. Very much a cut down solution to bring the cost to reasonable levels, and totally a wildcard when it comes to performance. You wouldn't be getting value HMDs with something like the Hololens array.

Even if it does work well (and that's a big if), there's still the issue of controllers and their tracking capabilities to make any sort of compelling package.

Well then. Not even a depth camera is very strange when they have been using it for ages for precisely this kinda of situations.

Zalusithix · Jan 6, 2017

Pics of other manufacturers headsets. All visibly the same tracking, which isn't surprising.
Acer:

Dell:

3Glasses:

HP:

Durante · Jan 6, 2017

Holy crap, a lot of those are vile. Especially that Acer thing.

Any of them actually functional?

GhostTrick · Jan 6, 2017

Could be interesting for someone like me who just want a headset and no tracking thing.

Dynasty · Jan 6, 2017

Durante said:
Holy crap, a lot of those are vile. Especially that Acer thing.

Any of them actually functional?

Yh they look horrible but waiting for impressions.
Dell one looks ok though.

GhostTrick · Jan 6, 2017

Durante said:
Holy crap, a lot of those are vile. Especially that Acer thing.

Any of them actually functional?

I kinda like the dell one.

Zalusithix · Jan 6, 2017

Durante said:
Holy crap, a lot of those are vile. Especially that Acer thing.

Any of them actually functional?

Not according to the article:

None of the headsets were plugged in and ready to go Windows Holographic is still a work in progress and most were unfortunately encased in glass boxes away from our heads (with the exception of the Lenovo which we got to go face-on with earlier). Nor did we have any details on pricing or availability. But across the line what we saw was a wide range of design choices, from cheap and techy by 3Glasses downright utopian futuristic from Dell.

Durante · Jan 6, 2017

GhostTrick said:
Could be interesting for someone like me who just want a headset and no tracking thing.

You know, I think it's usually silly to try to tell people what they want. But in this particular case, I'll make an exception.

Why?
Because personally, I was in a similar situation. As someone who had used VR since the DK1 days, I thought that all the hype about tracked controllers was just that - hype. But the moment I first got to really try a Vive in a large variety of games built for full interaction I realized that I had been dead wrong. 360° tracking and interaction using positionally tracked controllers completes the VR medium. It's not just a small bonus on top of it -- it's a crucial part of the experience.

It doesn't even fully capture the difference, but think of it like playing a FPS with a mouse and a keyboard instead of just a keyboard. Only a lot more so.

GhostTrick said:
I kinda like the dell one.

Aesthetically, it's easily the most appealing (or least appalling

), yeah.

GhostTrick · Jan 6, 2017

Durante said:
You know, I think it's usually silly to try to tell people what they want. But in this particular case, I'll make an exception.

Why?
Because personally, I was in a similar situation. As someone who had used VR since the DK1 days, I thought that all the hype about tracked controllers was just that - hype. But the moment I first got to really try a Vive in a large variety of games built for full interaction I realized that I had been dead wrong. 360° tracking and interaction using positionally tracked controllers completes the VR medium. It's not just a small bonus on top of it -- it's a crucial part of the experience.

It doesn't even fully capture the difference, but think of it like playing a FPS with a mouse and a keyboard instead of just a keyboard. Only a lot more so.

Aesthetically, it's easily the most appealing (or least appalling ), yeah.

Dont misunderstand me, I'm quite hyped for the tracking, but as of now, it's quite expensive and I'd be fine with just 3D gaming. Althought what I wonder the most about these devices is the refresh rate.

Zalusithix · Jan 6, 2017

Durante said:
Aesthetically, it's easily the most appealing (or least appalling ), yeah.

But also one of the worst for people that wear glasses. (I added pics of the headsets' insides.) No cut out for frames in the padding, and the internal area doesn't look big to begin with.

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