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Video game developers confess their hidden tricks at last

L

LordOfLore

Banned
Polygon link. Thread.

Jennifer Scheurle opened up a can of game-design whoopass on Thursday.

Scheurle, a designer with Opaque Space (whose current project is the virtual reality game Earthlight) tossed out an open question on Twitter that will make you question what really is underneath the hood of your favorite game.

Given the chance to confess their sins of rubber-banding, regenerating boss health or worse, many developers took it.
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My favorite:
The Xenomorph in Alien: Isolation has two brains one that always knows where you are and gives hints to the second that controls the body :D
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Shifty

Shifty

Member
Conciliator said:
I think "coyote time" should definitely be an official thing and I love games with coyote time
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That one's my favourite. I've always thought that platformers should just give you the jump regardless of fall distance when you fall off a ledge.
 
C

Cartho

Member
That one about FEAR's AI dialogue was interesting. I believe Half Life's Marines did stuff like that. Like they would yell "he's over there, flank him!" even though the AI couldn't actually do it. They said it to increase tension and keep the player on their toes.
 
D

DiipuSurotu

Banned
elJzdk7.jpg


97% my ass
 
J

Jangowuzhere

Banned
Professor Lexicovermis said:
The Xenomorph "double AI" is genius; keeps it smart enough to be a legitimate threat while preventing it from being omniscient!
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Except it kinda wasn't.

A lot of the criticisms thrown at Isolation had to do with the AI obviously knowing where you are at times. You can definitely feel the gears turning in the background. The double AI thing doesn't feel very hidden.
 
C

correojon

Member
Shifty. said:
That one's my favourite. I've always thought that platformers should just give yfou the jump regardless of fall distance when you fall off a ledge.
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I don't remember how they call it, but this is something every decent 2D platformer implements, back to the first Mario. There are actually a lot of tricks like this, like pulling the player up if he barely misses landing on a platform, or pushing him to the side when he's barely colliding with a block when jumping. These are things you may not see but when they are missing the game feelss incredibly clunky. Just take a look at the Sonic Mania OT and see how many people are complaining about getting crushed by one or two pixels and how wrongit feels.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
That bit about the Xenomorph in Alien Isolation having two different "brains" is pretty damn clever and actually something I'd been thinking of in relation to AI in games. Its often described as one of the tougher aspects to design well, let alone in a working state that is fun to play against. I always thought designing AI in games would be cool if they had different "focuses" or "drives" like one AI controlling them is constantly trying to keep them safe by staying far away, staying in cover, keeping with the group and so on.

On the the other hand there is another AI that acts as the aggressor and is constantly trying to get at you once they're aware you're there and conflicts with the survival AI as it tries to get shots off, advance and so on. You could even give it that ability to know exactly where you are on the map to add to this. Obviously far more easier said than done but I think it could create for some interesting AI reactions and gameplay.
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
Professor Lexicovermis said:
The Xenomorph "double AI" is genius; keeps it smart enough to be a legitimate threat while preventing it from being omniscient!
Click to expand...

Enemies in games don't detect things the way humans do. There's no real analog to deriving visual information from a 2D projection of a game world and then contextualizing it, the way people see things on a computer monitor and then react to it.

In other words, AI generally directly pulls player state information (position, etc) then decides what to do with it. Or, in other words, enemies in games are generally all omniscient to begin with, and then crippled in various ways by their algorithms. (e.g. is a player entity in LOS, etc)

Granted, something like a singular, more significant enemy like in Alien Isolation probably has more complex routines than cannon fodder, but yeah.
 
T

Turin Turambar

Member
The Xenomorph in Alien: Isolation has two brains one that always knows where you are and gives hints to the second that controls the body :D
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That's a very weird way to type 'the alien always knows your approximate location (like you are in a X meters radius). In fact, playing the game it was obvious. Even more, X is very dependent of your difficulty setting. In Hard mode it was a pain in the ass because even if you played perfectly he always would be 3-4 rooms away, tops.
 
T

Turin Turambar

Member
Jackpot said:
My whole life is a lie.
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It reminds me of how people believe FEAR AI is super good, even if they explained how it worked years ago. Basically the key were the maps themselves, they were pretty linear, usually they were only 2 paths to traverse. The AI sent a pair of of soldiers in each path until they bumped into the player, and naturally it would seem one of the groups was being smart flanking the player.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Turin Turambar said:
It reminds me of how people believe FEAR AI is super good, even if they explained how it worked years ago. Basically the key were the maps themselves, they were pretty linear, usually they were only 2 paths to traverse. The AI sent a pair of of soldiers in each path until they bumped into the player, and naturally it would seem one of the groups was being smart flanking the player.
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I actually thought the stealth ninja characters were the most impressive even if what they're were actually doing wasn't probably all that complex or crazy. I just remember fighting them then losing track of one and it would basically just stake out a random room, go invisible and then stick to a wall for a seemingly random amount of time. Sometimes you found them by chance and sometimes you didn't but it made fighting them a really tense scenario.
 
Z

Zojirushi

Member
Turin Turambar said:
It reminds me of how people believe FEAR AI is super good, even if they explained how it worked years ago. Basically the key were the maps themselves, they were pretty linear, usually they were only 2 paths to traverse. The AI sent a pair of of soldiers in each path until they bumped into the player, and naturally it would seem one of the groups was being smart flanking the player.
Click to expand...

Well if it's that easy why does every shooter no matter how linear still feel kinda shit compared to FEAR?
 
E

EmCeeGramr

Member
I'm sure someone has a link with the exact details, but IIRC in the modern XCOM games they handle difficulty by basically cheating in or against the player's favor depending on what level you set it on. On most levels, you actually have a higher % chance to hit than is displayed and it makes sure the player can't miss too many times in a row, and compensates the aliens' aim lower if your squad is hurt/undersized.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Zojirushi said:
Well if it's that easy why does every shooter no matter how linear still feel kinda shit compared to FEAR?
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The enemies had a lot of moves available to them that were so simple but effective at making them seem "smart". Just the fact random soldiers would grab pieces of furniture and pull them around to create makeshift barricades to hide behind was always cool. That and they'd do things like leap over railings to get at you quicker than running down the stairwell as designed. Nothing truly impressive by itself but combine all these aspects and it made for legitimately fun enemies to fight.
 
P

Phrozenflame500

Member
EmCeeGramr said:
I'm sure someone has a link with the exact details, but IIRC in the modern XCOM games they handle difficulty by basically cheating in or against the player's favor depending on what level you set it on. On most levels, you actually have a higher % chance to hit than is displayed and it makes sure the player can't miss too many times in a row, and compensates the aliens' aim lower if your squad is hurt/undersized.
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Yup, both XCOM 1 and XCOM 2 do this at lower difficulties. Which coincidentally made "unfair RNG" complaints all the more fun since they were technically true. Some more details were found by dataminers here.
Also, some really smart solutions in that twitter thread. Love the "coyote time" as well as Levine's first-shot solutions.
 
T

TheBowen

Sat alone in a boggy marsh
I like the gears of war statistic that 90% of players who didn't get a kill there first match would not play a second.

Pretty staggering and not surprising considering gears is pretty fucking difficult.

Some of these are really interesting, I love the whole ' enemies scream commands' to make you think they are doing them. It's like some weird placebo effect
 
S

Stormblessed

Member
The "barely surviving" stuff regarding low health situations I actually kind of wish they hadn't revealed, as it sort of undermines those moments.
 
S

Silvergun-Blue

Member
MMarston said:
Son of a
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I remember years ago reading about how during playtesting for the original Borderlands, one of the complaints was that the characters moved too slowly. What they ended up doing was adding more graphical objects and textures to the open areas like small rocks and vegetation so to give a better visual feeling of movement as they scroll towards and past the player character.
They gave the game back to the playtesters and they claimed it was much better!
 
B

Brannon

Member
Most of the projectiles in Titanfall 2 have hitboxes that expand as they travel, so it's slightly easier to hit fast targets at range.
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My skill is a lie. MY SKILL IS A LIE.


(makes sense when you think about it)
 
S

show me your skeleton

Member
so here's something that is tangentially related. fighting games could/are able to read every input a player makes right, therefor being able to counter any command? so in theory is 'good AI' in a fighting game is actually adding in weaknesses to the AI?
 
M

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Falk said:
Enemies in games don't detect things the way humans do. There's no real analog to deriving visual information from a 2D projection of a game world and then contextualizing it, the way people see things on a computer monitor and then react to it.

In other words, AI generally directly pulls player state information (position, etc) then decides what to do with it. Or, in other words, enemies in games are generally all omniscient to begin with, and then crippled in various ways by their algorithms. (e.g. is a player entity in LOS, etc)

Granted, something like a singular, more significant enemy like in Alien Isolation probably has more complex routines than cannon fodder, but yeah.
Click to expand...

For the time I always liked the AI in Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. Especially the bots in Perfect Dark. Low level ones acted like they didn't know where you are while the last two difficulties would go right for you immediately as you spawned. The only thing they never really adjusted for in any difficulty was their ability to use melee/some secondary effects which they just couldn't handle and their near god like use of the lowly grenade launcher. Even the scrubbiest AI knew exactly how to bounce shots to get you every time.
 
TissueBox

TissueBox

Member
show me your skeleton said:
so here's something that is tangentially related. fighting games could/are able to read every input a player makes right, therefor being able to counter any command? so in theory is 'good AI' in a fighting game is actually adding in weaknesses to the AI?
Click to expand...

Speaking not just for fighting games but any genre with realtime, allegedly 'intelligent' enemies, making AI a realistic challenge is always a caveat. Balance is a result of complex checks and balances that are easily compromised. That's why most games have enemies that are either too smart or too stupid -- meeting halfway is like sculpting. Destroying and just leaving the slab alone is technically much easier, but getting the perfect shape is based on numerous multi-step processes beyond just AI but level design, combat systems, and difficulty curves.
 
M

More_Badass

Member
Turin Turambar said:
It reminds me of how people believe FEAR AI is super good, even if they explained how it worked years ago. Basically the key were the maps themselves, they were pretty linear, usually they were only 2 paths to traverse. The AI sent a pair of of soldiers in each path until they bumped into the player, and naturally it would seem one of the groups was being smart flanking the player.
Click to expand...
Yeah this had been known for a while. FEAR's AI is great at pretending to seem dynamic and intelligent rather than acutally being dynamic and reactive. It's clever path finding + fluid transitions between animations + levels designed to play to the strengths of the AI + smoke and mirrors with the enemy chatter to make them seem like they're working together and reacting to the player
 
T

Takuhi

Member
Ooh, this one's hot!

"The Suikoden's world map is made to not frustrate players. If players walk in a straight line, less enemies will appear, bc they're clearly Trying to go SOMEWHERE and don't want to waste time. If players zig-zag around, more enemies will attack, to help them grind."
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
Takuhi said:
Ooh, this one's hot!

"The Suikoden's world map is made to not frustrate players. If players walk in a straight line, less enemies will appear, bc they're clearly Trying to go SOMEWHERE and don't want to waste time. If players zig-zag around, more enemies will attack, to help them grind."
Click to expand...

Now that's just smart. Its like theyre sticking to the roads or something.
 
W

Wolf Akela

Member
Lots of neat tricks to make the player feel better.

Reminds me of DMC3 where enemies never start an attack offscreen, so no cheap shots. Or how you're invulnerable until the peak of your jump it roll, to give you the feeling of barely escaping.
 
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