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The Rise Of Toxic Fandom

//ARCANUM

//ARCANUM

Member
I just came across this article: http://junkee.com/rick-and-morty-toxic-fandom/130622

I've never heard of this site before, and I wish the article had a bit more to say about a potential solution rather than just pointing out the problem, but the problem indeed exists.

There’s always going to be people who ruin something for everyone, but it increasingly feels like pop culture fandom has gone rotten. An aggressive type of entitled fan has become dominant and vocal in the past few decades. The arrogant confidence of these fans is out of control with the type of behaviour they think they can get away with.

These self-proclaimed ‘geeks’ claim to love something, but instead treat it like a competitive sport. And somehow, in the past two decades these geeks became the new jocks.
Click to expand...

Most fandoms were nothing like the juggernauts they are now. People gravitated toward like-minded fans in smaller communities. Fans were able to bond and be proud of what they liked. People still do this now but it’s a bit like a mosh pit; sometimes you’ll find people who have got your back, but there’s way more who are ready to trample you than ever before.

The small groups of the past found important confidence in numbers because of the way individuals were bullied in isolation. During this time — primarily in the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s — pop culture offered a refuge and fans knew the things they loved intimately.

It’s easier to find fellow fans now, but the sub-culture no longer exists in the way it did before. Geeky properties used to sit just below mainstream popularity and there were large sub-groups of fans of Star Trek, Dr. Who, Lord of the Rings, Monty Python, Dungeons and Dragons, anime, comic books and more. These kinds of pop culture now sit in the mainstream — they’re big business.
Click to expand...

The rot began to set in when female fans — showing up in big numbers — were branded as ‘fake geek girls’. A few men decided they’d be the judge of whether women had the geek cred to be accepted. Geek gatekeeping had begun to get a lot worse with fans starting to judge who was worthy and who was not. With more voices in the mix, pop culture fandom began to get louder and more abrasive.
Click to expand...

But why is this toxic behaviour spreading? It’s because fans are pining for the days when certain aspects of pop culture fandom were contained within the sub-culture. Fandom is not about what you love, but how you love it. The way you engage with other fans says more about you, than getting a Batman tattoo on your bicep. People are overcompensating for the sake of beating other people at loving something.
Click to expand...

I recommend checking out the full article, but it ultimately left me wanting to discuss this. So here I am! Looking for a discussion / to get other points of views and opinions.

I was born in the 80s and have lived my childhood into adult life during the time period this article points to - the explosion of nerd/geek/comic/whatever culture. And I have certainly witnessed and experienced the points brought up in the article. Geek gatekeeping, fan entitlement, fans feeling characters/stories belong to them. All the way to scalpers/re-sellers buying up limited geek items and creating difficulties / additional expenses for the people who actually want those items to get them.

There's a lot of nastiness going on in geek culture, and I really don't know what a solution to the problem is. I know how to be good to other people, how to respect fellow fans. But a lot of people don't know that. A lot of people are growing up entitled and demanding that their characters / stories be exactly how they demand they be.

Is there anything that can be done about toxic fandom? What do y'all think?
 
NoMoreTrolls

NoMoreTrolls

Banned
I'm pickle riiiiiiiick! You're just a Jerry if you didn't get your hands on some Szechuan sauce. Wubba lubba dub dub! Female writers are wrecking the show.

The internet made me like Rick and Morty way less as the show went on.
The Rick and Morty subreddit is the worst thing on the internet.
 
R

Ryouji Gunblade

Member
Disengage from the toxicity when you encounter it, and don't contribute to attacks on fans. Unmoderated areas are danger zones.

I realize how hypocritical this is when I consider my Halo posts. I'm trying to get better and less cynical.
 
//ARCANUM

//ARCANUM

Member
Ryouji Gunblade said:
Disengage from the toxicity when you encounter it, and don't contribute to attacks on fans. Unmoderated areas are danger zones.

I realize how hypocritical this is when I consider my Halo posts. I'm trying to get better and less cynical.
Click to expand...

I definitely have a policy of disengaging and I find that engagement has a success rate of about 0.0% when dealing with a rabid angry person.

That said, are we getting to the point where we let the crazies just say whatever the want by not engaging? At what point do the crazies take over? Have they?
 
Y

yanipheonu

Member
Rise? Fandoms always had problems.

Though I assume that the Internet exacerbated things.
More specifically the Internet Fuckwad Theory:

4fc.jpg
 
SiteSeer

SiteSeer

Member
NoMoreTrolls said:
I'm pickle riiiiiiiick! You're just a Jerry if you didn't get your hands on some Szechuan sauce. Wubba lubba dub dub! Female writers are wrecking the show.

The internet made me like Rick and Morty way less as the show went on.
The Rick and Morty subreddit is the worst thing on the internet.
Click to expand...

i just shake my head and move on. and i never wander too far on reddit. i enjoy rick and morty, but if you take step back it is a really offensive show and i'm not surprised it attracts or subtly promotes bad behavior.
 
old

old

Member
We gamers have long dealt with this problem.

Sony fanboys ruined PlayStation for me. Battlefield fanboys ruined Battlefield for me.

Many times I had to remind myself I don’t dislike Sony. I dislike their fans.
 
S

Spaced Harrier

Member
NoMoreTrolls said:
I'm pickle riiiiiiiick! You're just a Jerry if you didn't get your hands on some Szechuan sauce. Wubba lubba dub dub! Female writers are wrecking the show.

The internet made me like Rick and Morty way less as the show went on.
The Rick and Morty subreddit is the worst thing on the internet.
Click to expand...

Honestly I've I only seen one Rick and Morty thing that was bad (Asian guy jumping on counter in McDs) but the "Rick and Morty fans are the worst" I've seen countless times..

Anyway, geek culture, geek analysis it's just so fucking boring.

Once upon a time you'd be chatting to people online on a forun and someone would be talking about how they loved escape from New York. Some people had seen it others hadn't someone would post a cheesy screenshot... blah blah.


Now, you'll be linked to a 25 minute video about how the sequel "fundamentally misunderstood what made the original great", someone insisting "it was never good, like sonic the hedgehog, bagel bites and and your childhood crush" and the advert inbetween will be for a fuckin Snake Pliskin funko pop in a lootcrate it some shit.

It's like people on dating sites who just list things they like.
 
B

BlackDoomShadow

Member
Obviously there have always been toxic asshole men in fandom, but several factors in the last 10-15 years have converged to create the present situation:

1. Social media, allowing you to instantly and immediately interact with millions of other people, including the creators of the shows and films you enjoy (or don't enjoy)

2. The rise in popularity of unmoderated internet communities, fuelled by Silicon Valley's obsession with absolute free speech. GAF remains one of the last bastions of an older internet era where communities were strictly moderated to ensure a quality of discussion

3. The mainstreaming of fandom and the increasing numbers of visible women in fandom, as noted by the article
 
//ARCANUM

//ARCANUM

Member
SiteSeer said:
i just shake my head and move on. and i never wander too far on reddit. i enjoy rick and morty, but if you take step back it is a really offensive show and i'm not surprised it attracts or subtly promotes bad behavior.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen more than a couple of episodes myself, and I enjoyed those. A bunch of my friends, who are intelligent, non toxic people, all love the show. So that makes me think it has some merit regardless of its toxic fanbase. I generally don't have a problem with offensive content, I think art should be about whatever the artist wants to talk about. And I love Dan Harmon's previous show - Community.

To me, what I mentioned here: regardless of its toxic fanbase, is the part that sucks the most. I haven't seen enough of Rick and Morty to defend it, but I feel bad for the creators who put something out into the world, just for it to be taken by these nasty fans and distorted into something gross.
 
S

Snaku

Banned
NoMoreTrolls said:
I'm pickle riiiiiiiick! You're just a Jerry if you didn't get your hands on some Szechuan sauce. Wubba lubba dub dub! Female writers are wrecking the show.

The internet made me like Rick and Morty way less as the show went on.
The Rick and Morty subreddit is the worst thing on the internet.
Click to expand...

Ryouji Gunblade said:
Disengage from the toxicity when you encounter it, and don't contribute to attacks on fans.
Click to expand...

.
 
R

Ryouji Gunblade

Member
//ARCANUM said:
I definitely have a policy of disengaging and I find that engagement has a success rate of about 0.0% when dealing with a rabid angry person.

That said, are we getting to the point where we let the crazies just say whatever the want by not engaging? At what point do the crazies take over? Have they?
Click to expand...

I wanted to emphasize that moderators have their job, wherever they moderate. Without mods, I dunno if it's worth the effort to fight toxicity with kindness or otherwise.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
I feel another major factor in the rise of 'toxic fandom', as such, is the increased connectivity between said fandom and the creators of the works they love. Both in the sense of actually communicating with them - where once there was only writing letters, now there's conventions, social media, forums, specialised news outlets, so forth - but also the increased rise of business tactics that rely on currying favour with fandom. That's why we wait on things like NYCC and SDCC for big movie trailers; we laugh to ourselves when a meme and/or running gag from the fandom works its way into the show; we get hype for the promise implied by cameos and small references in each new Marvel film; a common line for almost any creative media outlet now is some variant of 'we listen to our fans'.

Fans together are in a greater position to justifiably feel they can express what they want from creators and get it, and unfortunately, more than a few can neither accept hearing 'no' (or rather, not hearing 'yes'), nor that what they want from a franchise isn't necessarily what others want. Further still, you have those whose obsession with fandom as part of their identity has probably reached something of a cult-like level, where it overrides other prerogatives of common sense or basic decency in the name of fulfilling fandom ritual - hence the szechaun sauce shit show or people throwing pizza at some poor old couple's house.

As to how you solve this... I'm not entirely sure. It's something at a scale that's just... so difficult to control.
 
M

mdubs

Banned
Fans have always been toxic. Go on tumblr or any other place where people obsess over things and you’ll see the same thing.
 
//ARCANUM

//ARCANUM

Member
Spaced Harrier said:
Honestly I've I only seen one Rick and Morty thing that was bad (Asian guy jumping on counter in McDs) but the "Rick and Morty fans are the worst" I've seen countless times..

Anyway, geek culture, geek analysis it's just so fucking boring.

Once upon a time you'd be chatting to people online on a forun and someone would be talking about how they loved escape from New York. Some people had seen it others hadn't someone would post a cheesy screenshot... blah blah.


Now, you'll be linked to a 25 minute video about how the sequel "fundamentally misunderstood what made the original great", someone insisting "it was never good, like sonic the hedgehog, bagel bites and and your childhood crush" and the advert inbetween will be for a fuckin Snake Pliskin funko pop in a lootcrate it some shit.

It's like people on dating sites who just list things they like.
Click to expand...

You make a really good point. I feel like nowadays, if you meet someone for the first time and ask them about themselves, there's a high likelihood of just receiving a list of the shows/movies/games/cultures they like...

I also really can't stand the constant need by people to use their opinion as fact to point out why something that someone else loves is "unloveable" / or was always "terrible and they had no idea."

BlackDoomShadow said:
Obviously there have always been toxic asshole men in fandom, but several factors in the last 10-15 years have converged to create the present situation:

1. Social media, allowing you to instantly and immediately interact with millions of other people, including the creators of the shows and films you enjoy (or don't enjoy)

2. The rise in popularity of unmoderated internet communities, fuelled by Silicon Valley's obsession with absolute free speech. GAF remains one of the last bastions of an older internet era where communities were strictly moderated to ensure a quality of discussion

3. The mainstreaming of fandom and the increasing numbers of visible women in fandom, as noted by the article
Click to expand...

Your #2 point is really interesting and something I don't think I consciously thought about before posting this, but has made me realize something. I didn't go to Facebook / twitter with this. I came to NeoGAF. Why? Because deep down, I wanted an intelligent conversation. I think the moderation in effect here is hugely important and creates for a place with intelligent and meaningful discussion.
 
S

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
It's always been there.

Internet just made it easy to connect with the thousands of others like themselves rather than the one or two around them.
 
H

Heroman

Banned
The rise of toxic fandom?
Yaw never turn on the radio and listen to some sports talk? Sports fandom has been awful since like forever.
 
S

StoneFox

Member
The original Star Trek series had a notoriously embarrassing fan base, to the point where the onslaught of female fans shipping characters together drove people away until the fan base calmed down. It was the fan base that invented Mary Sue fanfics after all.

Every fan base comes in waves. People are always the most reactionary to the height of a fandom's popularity. Look at My Little Pony. It's height was 2011-2013. Nowadays most of the haters and fans alike have moved on and Bronies are not the at the forefront of people's minds anymore. The fan base has calmed down and so the haters and the toxicity has too.

It's only when you have a completely niche property like Dwarf Fortress where the toxicity never really rises. The DF community is one of my favorites because you're more likely to find fans being supportive of each other and less outsiders hating on it just because it exists. Yeah, some people act elitist for playing DF, but those are a very small minority.

The combination of the internet going mainstream and social media has made the toxic people more vocal, but they are never the majority. The reason why fan bases go to shit is because the elitists invade. The kind of people who think you have to be smart to watch Rick and Morty, or you need to watch certain anime to be a true fan of anime, or you need to own a specific game console, etc. The elitists never care about the entertainment they claim to be fans of, they just like the attention and special snowflake status; and once they realize the thing they are flaunting about is losing popularity, they will move on the next big thing, and the fan bases they were ruining will go back to it's original, comfortable state.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
This isn't new. The cast and crew of Tiny Toon Adventures were harassed by fans enough that they included mocking references to them in the show, particularly one fan who was obsessed with Fifi (the skunk) and kept asking for her to get her own show.
 
Pagusas

Pagusas

Elden Member
I feel like the overall community of Gaf use to be one of the worst places on the internet for examples of this, but over the last year or 2 I feel like the community has gotten better overall.
 
E

Earthbound64

Banned
Sapiens said:
Fans acting like they invented or own the thing they love is never going to go away.
Click to expand...

You read all of the OP - and perhaps the article too - in 1 minute?
Including the parts which had nothing to do with "Fans acting like they invented and owned the thing they love"?


//ARCANUM said:
I feel like nowadays, if you meet someone for the first time and ask them about themselves, there's a high likelihood of just receiving a list of the shows/movies/games/cultures they like...
Click to expand...

That's been a thing for decades.
"So, what music/movies/shows/etc. do you like?" is such a cliché for "getting to know someone."
 
M

Mindwipe

Member
If the rose tinted glasses looking back at past fandoms here were any worse they'd be red housebricks.

The entire premise is crap.
 
D

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
I hear way more about how annoying Rick & Morty fans are than I encounter actual annoying Rick & Morty fans. Many people just have too hard a time disengaging from the echo chamber of the internet and online "communities" and develop a warped view of what things are really like.

daviyoung said:
don't underestimate the destructive power of bored white 30-somethings with an internet connection
Click to expand...
You are aware that the one video everyone keeps pointing to as an example of the "toxicity" of the R&M fanbase is of an Asian guy, right?
 
tkscz

tkscz

Member
What do they mean rise? Fandoms have been bad since always. Look at sports fandoms. They are horrible. Going as far as to assault people who root for the other team. The only difference now is that social media is a bigger thing, more people are showing their "love" for a fandom where others can see it. There is no rise, nor will there ever be a fall. A group of toxic people will be in a community no matter what. It's human nature.

daviyoung said:
don't underestimate the destructive power of bored white 30-somethings with an internet connection
Click to expand...

Talking like this only makes it worse. Steven Universe fans are made of a pretty diverse group and said group told an artist to go kill herself and harassed multiple of the crew.
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
StoneFox said:
The original Star Trek series had a notoriously embarrassing fan base, to the point where the onslaught of female fans shipping characters together drove people away until the fan base calmed down. It was the fan base that invented Mary Sue fanfics after all.

Every fan base comes in waves. People are always the most reactionary to the height of a fandom's popularity. Look at My Little Pony. It's height was 2011-2013. Nowadays most of the haters and fans alike have moved on and Bronies are not the at the forefront of people's minds anymore. The fan base has calmed down and so the haters and the toxicity has too.

It's only when you have a completely niche property like Dwarf Fortress where the toxicity never really rises. The DF community is one of my favorites because you're more likely to find fans being supportive of each other and less outsiders hating on it just because it exists. Yeah, some people act elitist for playing DF, but those are a very small minority.

The combination of the internet going mainstream and social media has made the toxic people more vocal, but they are never the majority. The reason why fan bases go to shit is because the elitists invade. The kind of people who think you have to be smart to watch Rick and Morty, or you need to watch certain anime to be a true fan of anime, or you need to own a specific game console, etc. The elitists never care about the entertainment they claim to be fans of, they just like the attention and special snowflake status; and once they realize the thing they are flaunting about is losing popularity, they will move on the next big thing, and the fan bases they were ruining will go back to it's original, comfortable state.
Click to expand...
It's always odd when there are class-like (capitalist?) hierarchies to fandoms, and the worst kind of fan who obsessed their life over the property or popstar are newsworthy and representatives of the fandom.
Me-mania.png

Satoshi Kon stays prescient as ever.
 
SiteSeer

SiteSeer

Member
//ARCANUM said:
I haven't seen more than a couple of episodes myself, and I enjoyed those. A bunch of my friends, who are intelligent, non toxic people, all love the show. So that makes me think it has some merit regardless of its toxic fanbase. I generally don't have a problem with offensive content, I think art should be about whatever the artist wants to talk about. And I love Dan Harmon's previous show - Community.

To me, what I mentioned here: regardless of its toxic fanbase, is the part that sucks the most. I haven't seen enough of Rick and Morty to defend it, but I feel bad for the creators who put something out into the world, just for it to be taken by these nasty fans and distorted into something gross.
Click to expand...
when i first started watching the show i was offended by the crudeness of it, but also delighted by the intelligence and wit. i think anything out in the world can be co-opted and distorted. but as long as it is harmless (weirdo jumping on a mcdonalds counter) we must live with it, but it certainly doesn't take my enjoyment away, and moreso i'd rather not give the toxicity the time of day. the trollish behavior grows with attention.

shaneo632 said:
Toxic fandom has been around for decades. Meme culture has just made it more obnoxious and apparent.
Click to expand...
also this.
 
U

Umbooki

Member
Fandoms have been trash for the longest time and we're just living in a world where it's easy to expose ourselves to them. The easiest example of toxic fandom can be found in sports. With some of the tweets these athletes see on the regular, you'd think they were running around sleeping with the fans' mothers.
 
B

Brawly Likes to Brawl

Member
Fandoms (particularly large ones) have always had problems with toxicity. The term is inspired by the word "fanatic" for a reason. And it isn't exclusive to a particular gender, either.

Only way to fix it is to solve the problem of people getting way to invested in a product. Most of the fanbases we hear about are made up of young people in their teens to early 20s that have a lot of time on their hands outside of schoolwork, so there's more opportunity to get super into some form of media and interact with other fans. Then you have things like sports where there's an inherent tribalism involved.

The internet has made it easier than ever to come together and act shitty with like minded people, so that's we have stuff like Szechaun cringefests, people holding leaked show spoilers ransom over unrequited shipping, and severe harassment campaigns happening.
 
Roronoa Zoro

Roronoa Zoro

Gold Member
while the negativity for other properties is terrible, there’s also the need to put a positive spin on EVERYTHING from your property. Like when Wonder Woman was good and everyone who had been defending man of steel and bvs had to critique everyone who said it was the first great dceu film. “Marveltards don’t realizes bvs was a masterpiece!”

And then there’s the damn trailer reactions where people decide that a movie will be great before it even comes out and then feel the need to defend that opinion no matter the quality. This is especially prevalent in Star Wars. I listen to collider and while I like many of their personalities I can’t stand them talking Star Wars because they’re so clearly biased to declare everything great and will be impressed by a Vader helmet showing in a rogue one trailer or something. Not only be impressed, but say they started crying or something. It’s like why even ask if you liked it or not because basically if it’s Star Wars you’re all gonna act like it’s gods second coming
 
Z

zeemumu

Member
They feel the need to be important among other fans of a popular thing. Can't just be one of the masses who like the thing, you need to be "that one guy." That one who was so dedicated that they waited line for the Szechuan sauce, drove all the way to New Mexico to throw a pizza onto someone's roof, the one who backed the right character ship, etc.
 
A

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
The stereotypical "Trekie" has existed since my parents were young. It's always been a problem but, like so many other issues, it's only ever been exposed widely thanks to the internet.
 
S

SliceSabre

Banned
I don't see this as any kind of rise at all. As long as humans could be a fan of something there have been toxic fandoms. The only thing nowadays is that it gets toxic quicker thanks to the speed of the internet so people are able to connect faster and take things down the shitter fandom.

The true solution is to just not engage in the fans and don't let shitty fans ruin shows because it isn't the property's fault the fans are shitty people. I would never let a shitty fandom ruin my opinion of something.
 
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