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FXAA creator comments on Orbis, Durango

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Q

QaaQer

Member
http://timothylottes.blogspot.ca/2013/01/orbis-and-durango.html

Interesting blog post from Timothy Lottes:

Working assuming the Eurogamer Article is mostly correct with the exception of maybe exact clocks, amount of memory, and number of enabled cores (all of which could easily change to adapt to yields)....

PS4​
The real reason to get excited about a PS4 is what Sony as a company does with the OS and system libraries as a platform, and what this enables 1st party studios to do, when they make PS4-only games. If PS4 has a real-time OS, with a libGCM style low level access to the GPU, then the PS4 1st party games will be years ahead of the PC simply because it opens up what is possible on the GPU. Note this won't happen right away on launch, but once developers tool up for the platform, this will be the case. As a PC guy who knows hardware to the metal, I spend most of my days in frustration knowing damn well what I could do with the hardware, but what I cannot do because Microsoft and IHVs wont provide low-level GPU access in PC APIs. One simple example, drawcalls on PC have easily 10x to 100x the overhead of a console with a libGCM style API....

I could continue here, but I'm not, by now you get the picture, launch titles will likely be DX11 ports, so perhaps not much better than what could be done on PC. However if Sony provides the real-time OS with libGCM v2 for GCN, one or two years out, 1st party devs and Sony's internal teams like the ICE team, will have had long enough to build up tech to really leverage the platform.

I'm excited for what this platform will provide for PS4-only 1st party titles and developers who still have the balls to do a non-portable game this next round....

Xbox720​
Working here assuming the Eurogamer Article is close to correct. On this platform I'd be concerned with memory bandwidth. Only DDR3 for system/GPU memory pared with 32MB of "ESRAM" sounds troubling....If this GPU is pre-GCN with a serious performance gap to PS4, then this next Xbox will act like a boat anchor, dragging down the min-spec target for cross-platform next-generation games.

My guess is that the real reason for 8GB of memory is because this box is a DVR which actually runs "Windows" (which requires a GB or two or three of "overhead"), but like Windows RT (Windows on ARM) only exposes a non-desktop UI to the user. There are a bunch of reasons they might ditch the real-time console OS, one being that if they don't provide low level access to developers, that it might enable a faster refresh on backwards compatible hardware. In theory the developer just targets the box like it was a special DX11 "PC" with a few extra changes like hints for surfaces which should go in ESRAM, then on the next refresh hardware, all prior games just get better FPS or resolution or AA. Of course if they do that, then it is just another PC, just lower performance, with all the latency baggage, and lack of low level magic which makes 1st party games stand out and sell the platform.
Click to expand...

If he is correct, it is going to be facinating to see if a win8 box can 'win' over a to-the-metal gaming console.

edit: From the comments section of the blog (thanks JohnnySasaki86)

A fast GDDR5 will be the desired option for developers. All the interesting cases for good anti-aliasing require a large amount of bandwidth and RAM. A tiny 32MB chunk of ESRAM will not fit that need even for forward rendering at 1080p. I think some developers could hit 1080p@60fps with the rumored Orbis specs even with good AA. My personal project is targeting 1080p@60fps with great AA on a 560ti which is a little slower than the rumored Orbis specs. There is no way my engine would hit that target on the rumored 720 specs. Ultimately on Orbis I guess devs target 1080p/30fps (with some motion blur) and leverage the lower latency OS stack and scan out at 60fps (double scan frames) to provide a really great lower-latency experience. Maybe the same title on 720 would render at 720p/30fps, and maybe Microsoft is dedicating a few CPU hardware threads to the GPU driver stack to remove the latency problem (assuming this is a "Windows" OS under the covers).
Click to expand...


TLDR: Based on rumour/leaked specs Timothy Lottes sees the big picture for Microsoft's 720 as:
  1. not making a custom OS, it is high cost,
  2. cheaper hardware, don't sell at a loss,
  3. selling a DVR, going after more than just gamers,
  4. focus on the more casual, larger player base
  5. refresh hardware often, get people to purchase more often,
  6. build a "PC", easier to port games from
Click to expand...
 
S

Striek

Member
Hes only speculating based off rumoured specs that we have no way of knowing are accurate/tell the whole story. Not worth getting worked up over.
 
G

Gorillaz

Member
oh boy here we go....
tumblr_lunt92GhbX1r6984go1_400.gif


they will both do fine
 
S

specialguy

Banned
Sid said:
Who is this guy?
Click to expand...

a guy who doesnt know much.

seriously, his name kicks around tech circles from time to time and i noticed before like, what the hell is this guy thinking? (cant remember the topic).

i'm sure he's super smart at programming but seems to have no clue about bigger pictures.

if you read his article he's basically saying stupid things like next box is going to just be a dumb dx11 box, no coding to the metal, only going to be used for up-resed 360 ports, etc etc. complete fabrications and wishful thinking

seems very sony biased.

this is useless, only pay attention to these when programmers that are actually making games on both have an opinion, and even then, tread carefully.

he's also implying xbox gpu will be pre-gcn for example, when no rumors say that. he's completely making things up.
 
J

JohnnySasaki86

Member
Striek said:
Hes only speculating based off rumoured specs that we have no way of knowing are accurate/tell the whole story. Not worth getting worked up over.
Click to expand...

No but it adds to the debate between significant more memory vs less memory but much faster. This guy has a lot more technical know how then the average person on gaf. If he says 4GB DDR5> 8 DDR3/4, it adds more weight to that argument.
 
M

meta4

Junior Member
To the question asked by one the posts in the comments section

can u please shed some light on the ram situation for both consoles ; which setup of the two ( 3.5 GB of gddr5 at 192GB/s and 5 GB of ddr3 at 68 GB/s with 32mb esram at 102 GB/s ) will be more preferable by the 3rd party developers ? which type of games will favour low amount and high bandwidth ram or vice versa ? Lastly will we see 1080p/60fps games to be the norm on orbis or on both the next gen consoles ?

This was his answer -

A fast GDDR5 will be the desired option for developers. All the interesting cases for good anti-aliasing require a large amount of bandwidth and RAM. A tiny 32MB chunk of ESRAM will not fit that need even for forward rendering at 1080p. I think some developers could hit 1080p@60fps with the rumored Orbis specs even with good AA. My personal project is targeting 1080p@60fps with great AA on a 560ti which is a little slower than the rumored Orbis specs. There is no way my engine would hit that target on the rumored 720 specs. Ultimately on Orbis I guess devs target 1080p/30fps (with some motion blur) and leverage the lower latency OS stack and scan out at 60fps (double scan frames) to provide a really great lower-latency experience. Maybe the same title on 720 would render at 720p/30fps, and maybe Microsoft is dedicating a few CPU hardware threads to the GPU driver stack to remove the latency problem (assuming this is a "Windows" OS under the covers)
Click to expand...

It appears we are missing something here if the two consoles are similar powerwise. These rumored specs have to be wrong otherwise it seems to be a pretty problematic difference. These rumored specs may not be legit.
 
D

deanos

Banned
specialguy said:
a guy who doesnt know much.

seriously, his name kicks around tech circles from time to time and i noticed before like, what the hell is this guy thinking? (cant remember the topic).

i'm sure he's super smart at programming but seems to have no clue about bigger pictures.

if you read his article he's basically saying stupid things like next box is going to just be a dumb dx11 box, no coding to the metal, only going to be used for up-resed 360 ports, etc etc. complete fabrications and wishful thinking

seems very sony biased.

this is useless, only pay attention to these when programmers that are actually making games on both have an opinion, and even then, tread carefully.
Click to expand...
someone here is emotionally invested. who might that be.

tumblr_lmxticuBke1qikhz3o1_r1_500.gif
 
G

GavinGT

Banned
Before PS3 came out, was anyone predicting it would drag down third party development? I certainly don't recall anyone saying that.
 
N

nib95

Banned
specialguy said:
a guy who doesnt know much.

seriously, his name kicks around tech circles from time to time and i noticed before like, what the hell is this guy thinking? (cant remember the topic).

i'm sure he's super smart at programming but seems to have no clue about bigger pictures.

if you read his article he's basically saying stupid things like next box is going to just be a dumb dx11 box, no coding to the metal, only going to be used for up-resed 360 ports, etc etc. complete fabrications and wishful thinking

seems very sony biased.

this is useless, only pay attention to these when programmers that are actually making games on both have an opinion, and even then, tread carefully.

he's also implying xbox gpu will be pre-gcn for example, when no rumors say that. he's completely making things up.
Click to expand...

Don't think he's saying that. His comment about higher res, or more aa etc I believe was in relation to launch windows titles vs later ones, when pc hardware has taken a refresh.

Also, it's funny you think he doesn't know much simply because he has an opinion that differs to yours. I think some of his post has merit, though I do agree, he is likely under valuing Durango.
 
T

Thug Waffle

Member
C'mon, Microsoft! Let's hope this isn't true. I want to purchase the next Xbox instead of the PS4, but ya gotta earn it!

Don't give me a reason to probably never own another Halo game, MS.
 
E

Eusis

Member
ii Stryker said:
So basically the same thing as this gen. Cool.
Click to expand...
Maybe if the PS3's extra strength were actually useful for games, but from what it seemed it was better utilized for protein folding, then later on stuff like AA (FXAA actually I believe). Well, there's still the fact PS3 was blu-ray and 360 was regular DVD, and even used a bullshit security encryption that robbed games of about 2 GB making it even more suffocating, but this next gen looks to have everyone equal on that front this time.

... Though it does seem plausible that if the PS4 is the stronger console it WILL be in a way that makes a significant difference for games. That will be fascinating to watch, especially if they're willing to go with 60 FPS or whatever on PS3 and Microsoft doesn't actively block that.
 
P

Proxy

Member
meta4 said:
To the question asked by one the posts in the comments section

can u please shed some light on the ram situation for both consoles ; which setup of the two ( 3.5 GB of gddr5 at 192GB/s and 5 GB of ddr3 at 68 GB/s with 32mb esram at 102 GB/s ) will be more preferable by the 3rd party developers ? which type of games will favour low amount and high bandwidth ram or vice versa ? Lastly will we see 1080p/60fps games to be the norm on orbis or on both the next gen consoles ?

This was his answer -



It appears we are missing something here if the two consoles are similar powerwise. These rumored specs have to be wrong otherwise it seems to be a pretty problematic difference. These rumored specs may not be legit.
Click to expand...

This is pretty informative :

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=62108

Nvm you weren't asking. Still a good read.
 
S

specialguy

Banned
At least two very big leaps of logic with no support seem to be made:

-Next box might have pre-GCN GPU

-MS wont allow coding to the metal of any sort
 
K

KDR_11k

Member
The problem I see is development budgets, exploiting all the power in these machines is getting pricier and pricier so fewer and fewer games can afford it. We may soon reach the point where any game that sells less than Call of Duty will make a loss.

I guess RAM size vs speed depends on what you're doing. While faster RAM is usually better some games may require game states that get too large for the smaller RAM (thinking large scale simulations here, you'd have to step down the fidelity for slower RAM but you'd have to plain cut stuff for lower RAM). Not that many modern AAA games require a large game state, after all there's only a small corridor with a handful of enemies to worry about.

I'm not seeing enough value in better and better graphics, I'd rather see them make sure that frame rates stay stable and focus on adding more game play relevant content to the game. For that matter I'd also like some more variety than just shooters with all hitscan weapons.
 
TheMan

TheMan

Member
i'm not very savvy when it comes to this hardcore tech shit, but haven't most leaked specs already shown that ps4 will be more powerful (on paper) than the 720?
 
D

DocSeuss

Member
UrbanRats said:
Oh boy, does this mean that Naughty Dog's games will look even more ahead of everyone else's, graphically?
Click to expand...

Naughty Dog's games look ahead of other peoples' games graphically? What?

Artistically, sure, but from a graphical perspective, plenty of people don't just outdo them, but pound them into the dirt.
 
J

JohnnySasaki86

Member
specialguy said:
a guy who doesnt know much.

seriously, his name kicks around tech circles from time to time and i noticed before like, what the hell is this guy thinking? (cant remember the topic).

i'm sure he's super smart at programming but seems to have no clue about bigger pictures.

if you read his article he's basically saying stupid things like next box is going to just be a dumb dx11 box, no coding to the metal, only going to be used for up-resed 360 ports, etc etc. complete fabrications and wishful thinking

seems very sony biased.

this is useless, only pay attention to these when programmers that are actually making games on both have an opinion, and even then, tread carefully.

he's also implying xbox gpu will be pre-gcn for example, when no rumors say that. he's completely making things up.
Click to expand...

are you joking? He knows plenty. Developed FXAA.

Your the one coming off as biased here towards MS.

hes not being biased but stating his opinion on what he thinks is better based off rumors. It makes sense for dev, to prefer a system that is focused on games, which is what devs create. DVR, Windows system detracts from that. I wouldn't call that "not seeing the bigger picture." I'm pretty sure most game developers would feel that way.

Now I will say, that him being a dev that primarily focuses on AA algorithms and what not, that he would be more inclined, not biased, to favor a system with better bandwidth. Like he said in another post, his new AA engine hes been developing wouldn't work on a system with the rumored specs as Durango at 1080p, but would on Orbis. Obviously hes going to favor the system that his product works on.
 
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