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Can Nintendo patch Full-Range RGB to Wii U?

H

Hero of Legend

Member
This seems to be one of the worst things about Wii U's design, it seems that Wii U can only use the limited version, but I don't recall this needing anything else physically to work, so shouldn't Nintendo be able to add the function in an update?

Hopefully this is among the fixes in the Summer Update. Why would Nintendo have left this out? Accidental? What benefit is there to leaving it out?
 
D

Dimmuxx

The Amiga Brotherhood
Hero of Legend said:
This seems to be one of the worst things about Wii U's design, it seems that Wii U can only use the limited version, but I don't recall this needing anything else physically to work, so shouldn't Nintendo be able to add the function in an update?

Hopefully this is among the fixes in the Summer Update. Why would Nintendo have left this out? Accidental? What benefit is there to leaving it out?
Click to expand...

One less setting that people can set incorrectly?
 
Neff

Neff

Member
I'm happy to experiment with electronics and software for optimum performance, but I had no idea what full RGB was until I tried it on my PS3, and I didn't even realise my 360 had it for about half a year.

Now that I do know the difference, and have seen the difference (it is striking), I want it on my Wii U. However for better or worse, simplicity, particularly technical simplicity, is an inherent part of the Nintendo experience.
 
S

sfried

Member
I actually pitch this question again in their Technical Support forums recently after the major firmware update. Let me see what their response is.
 
SEGAvangelist

SEGAvangelist

Gold Member
Neff said:
I'm happy to experiment with electronics and software for optimum performance, but I had no idea what full RGB was until I tried it on my PS3, and I didn't even realise my 360 had it for about half a year.

Now that I do know the difference, and have seen the difference (it is striking), I want it on my Wii U. However for better or worse, simplicity, particularly technical simplicity, is an inherent part of the Nintendo experience.
Click to expand...

All it does is crush your blacks. That's why it's striking. Just calibrate your brightness and you don't need it.
 
Oppo

Oppo

Member
Aren't like 99% of TVs set to the limited RGB range? I remember this discussion from early PS3 days. Some get confused because when you turn it in the image can look a bit more contrasty but it usually crushes the low and high end.
 
H

H_Prestige

Banned
Nerfgun said:
Aren't like 99% of TVs set to the limited RGB range? I remember this discussion from early PS3 days. Some get confused because when you turn it in the image can look a bit more contrasty but it usually crushes the low and high end.
Click to expand...

Yes. Mostly PC monitors are RGP full range.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Not even calibrators set TVs in Full RGB. It's pretty much only to be done for pro level editing for movies. Some monitors support it but you still need to be very careful of using it. You just like the look of crushed blacks and oversaturated colors.
 
D

Durante

Member
This thread reminds me: how the fuck do you set full range RGB in the new 360 menu? I never managed to.
 
blu

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Hero of Legend said:
This seems to be one of the worst things about Wii U's design, it seems that Wii U can only use the limited version, but I don't recall this needing anything else physically to work, so shouldn't Nintendo be able to add the function in an update?

Hopefully this is among the fixes in the Summer Update. Why would Nintendo have left this out? Accidental? What benefit is there to leaving it out?
Click to expand...
If by patching you mean an option in the system settings to enable it then yes - they should. Otherwise it's a no-no as it would break the IQ for so many people out there it's not even funny.
 
blu

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Hero of Legend said:
Why would it break the IQ?
Click to expand...
Because the standard tv picture is not full-range, and thus most tv's out there are not factory-set to show full range, or plain do not support.
 
D

Durante

Member
To be fair, this isn't really something you can blame Nintendo in particular for. Much of the industry seems hell-bent on being ass-backwards concerning full range RGB.

Sony still does it right, but even for MS the setting simply disappeared with the new UI (at least for component connections), and NVIDIA (purportedly a technology company) has refused to add a simply option for 5 years now.
 
T

TheExodu5

Banned
Contrary to what a lot of people here seem to think, your device does not have to "support" full RGB to properly display it. If all of your devices are set to full RGB, then calibrating your TV's brightness and contrast settings will essentially adjust the range that your TV displays. Any TV can be properly calibrated for full RGB range devices. What you don't want is to have it calibrated the same for full and limited RGB devices. That will result in reduced range or crushed blacks/whites.

The best solution would probably be to set all of your devices to limited RGB and calibrate accordingly...though I'm not sure if PC GPUs play nicely with limited RGB or not.

If you don't have a PC then I'd definitely recommend going limited RGB. You only lose about 12% precision (which I guess would result in a slightly lower contrast ratio), which is pretty minor. Measurable but probably difficult to pick out in a blnid test.
 
Oppo

Oppo

Member
TheExodu5 said:
Contrary to what a lot of people here seem to think, your device does not have to "support" full RGB to properly display it. If all of your devices are set to full RGB, then calibrating your TV's brightness and contrast settings will essentially adjust the range that your TV displays. Any TV can be properly calibrated for full RGB range devices. What you don't want is to have it calibrated the same for full and limited RGB devices. That will result in reduced range or crushed blacks/whites.

The best solution would probably be to set all of your devices to limited RGB and calibrate accordingly...though I'm not sure if PC GPUs play nicely with limited RGB or not.
Click to expand...

Isn't it just tossing away the lower/upper 20 RGB values, in that case?
 
RoadHazard

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Hero of Legend said:
Why would it break the IQ?
Click to expand...

Because it crushes your blacks if you're using a TV that doesn't support the full RGB range (which is most of them). What happens is that all dark shades below a certain level turn completely black (because they're outside the limited RGB range your TV supports), and you lose all shadow detail. This might look striking at first, because suddenly you're getting deeper blacks all over the place, but you're really just losing detail. If limited range looks shitty, you probably need to calibrate your TV.

(Ignore this if you're using a monitor with full range support, of course).
 
S

SoulClap

Member
Durante said:
This thread reminds me: how the fuck do you set full range RGB in the new 360 menu? I never managed to.
Click to expand...

ib0H2Q7vTsW2FD.JPG


Standard = Limited
Expanded = Full

I'm not sure what the hell intermediate is for.
 
D

Durante

Member
TheExodu5 said:
The best solution would probably be to set all of your devices to limited RGB and calibrate accordingly...though I'm not sure if PC GPUs play nicely with limited RGB or not.
Click to expand...
But that way you lose ~15% of your color tones. It's not perceptible in many circumstances, but with dark gradients it can make a noticeable difference.

SoulClap said:
ib0H2Q7vTsW2FD.JPG


Standard = Limited
Expanded = Full

I'm not sure what the hell intermediate is for.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's what I used to have in older versions of the OS, but the option is no longer there. At least not in the display menu.
 
T

TheExodu5

Banned
Nerfgun said:
Isn't it just tossing away the lower/upper 20 RGB values, in that case?
Click to expand...

No, the brightness/contrast ratios actually work quite differently on a TV than they do on a monitor. I don't know specifically how it works, but it essentially adjusts the range that your TV expects.

I believe this is the basics of how it works:

- when you raise the brightness setting on your TV, it compresses the lower range and raises their values (so that a 0 becomes a 16, so on so forth).
- when you raise the contrast, it lowers the higher range (so that a 255 becomes a 239, so on so forth).

Durante said:
But that way you lose ~15% of your color tones. It's not perceptible in many circumstances, but with dark gradients it can make a noticeable difference.
Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much...but considering the alternative, it's probably the best course of action to take if you're stuck with a single calibration setting for all your devices. This is mostly an issue for people that have the signal going through a receiver, as they don't have the option of calibrating separately for each device. Some TVs allow for a scene setting though...that might be a good way to set up multiple calibration settings per input, though you'd need to switch manually.
 
RoadHazard

RoadHazard

Gold Member
TheExodu5 said:
No, the brightness/contrast ratios actually work quite differently on a TV than they do on a monitor. I don't know specifically how it works, but it essentially adjusts the range that your TV expects.

I believe this is the basics of how it works:

- when you raise the brightness setting on your TV, it compresses the lower range and raises their values (so that a 0 becomes a 16, so on so forth).
- when you raise the contrast, it lowers the higher range (so that a 255 becomes a 239, so on so forth).
Click to expand...

You're wrong. If you enable full range (0-255) while using a TV that only supports limited range (16-235), the TV will be sent low and high RGB values it simply cannot display, and you'll lose a ton of detail. You'll just get solid black or white where there should be variations, and changing the brightness or contrast won't bring that detail back.
 
M

M3d10n

Member
AFAIK All TVs are by default set to receive limited range. Only monitors (or TV inputs set to PC-mode) expect full-range.

Of course, for people only interested in gaming a monitor can be much cheaper than a TV and it's nice to be able to see things as they were intended to be instead of a washed out mess.
 
M

Mashing

Member
I'd be worried that this would reallly increase the likelyhood of IR on plasma tv's (my brand new VT60 had IR for about a month before it finally seems to go away). Probalby my fault, as I was playing the game in 'game' mode on occasion(why does game mode jack up the contrast to 100% btw?).... but even at a modest 50% it still became an issue.
 
M

madmook

Member
I sure hope they get this patched in. I mostly play on monitors, so I need RGB full.

Pathetic that both PS3 and 360 have this setting, and Nintendo with their newer system still can't get with the times.
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
I'd like the option before getting one, I play on monitors so I'd rather not have to deal with faded colours and blacks coming across as a very apparent gray.
 
DonMigs85

DonMigs85

Member
Most TVs accept Limited RGB by default, so Nintendo probably didn't care or just didn't want people messing with it and adding to their tech support calls.
 
Clockwork

Clockwork

Member
Limited RGB
16-235 values
(TV/Broadcast Standard)

Full RGB
0-255 values
(PC/monitors)

Televisions by default are typically set to process limited RGB. However, many modern TV's also support full RGB which can be set via their options menu.

If set correctly (TV set to limited/console set to limited or tv set to full/console set to full) the image you see should be virtually indistinguishable. If set wrong (tv set to full/console set to limited) the images will look more washed out and blacks will look gray or alternatively (tv set to limited console/console set to full) your image will be too contrasty and your blacks will be crushed.

As long as both your console and display device are calibrated properly it should never matter. Unfortunately, sites like Digital Foundry (who I otherwise admire) seem to be hung up on the fact that the Wii U does not have full RGB. It's really kind of ridiculous.
 
R

Rolf NB

Member
There's no reason for artificially limited range in digital signals. I feel like this was a huge mistake in the HDMI standardization process, and now we have to live with this bullshit forever. Overscan, too, for that matter.
 
H

HomerSimpson-Man

Member
Wouldn't really matter, a properly calibrated tv wouldn't make a difference, plus you would just crash blacks, losing shadow detail making the picture actually worse if the tv doesn't use the full range spectrum.

Calibrating a tv properly is far more important than if it's "full or limited" in terms of picture quality.
 
DonMigs85

DonMigs85

Member
HomerSimpson-Man said:
Wouldn't really matter, a properly calibrated tv wouldn't make a difference, plus you would just crash blacks, losing shadow detail making the picture actually worse if the tv doesn't use the full range spectrum.

Calibrating a tv properly is far more important than if it's "full or limited" in terms of picture quality.
Click to expand...

Yeah, although I noticed some cheaper TVs removed the option to switch between limited and full range, being just limited by default.
 
H

Hero of Legend

Member
Rolf NB said:
There's no reason for artificially limited range in digital signals. I feel like this was a huge mistake in the HDMI standardization process, and now we have to live with this bullshit forever. Overscan, too, for that matter.
Click to expand...

Overscan was workaround-able thanks to the Spring Update IIRC; you can fix the size of the image I think.

Doesn't work in Wii Mode right?
 
T

TheExodu5

Banned
RoadHazard said:
You're wrong. If you enable full range (0-255) while using a TV that only supports limited range (16-235), the TV will be sent low and high RGB values it simply cannot display, and you'll lose a ton of detail. You'll just get solid black or white where there should be variations, and changing the brightness or contrast won't bring that detail back.
Click to expand...

Using a Sony 32EX400 right now. I set my PC to a custom resolution of 1918*1080 to enable RGB Full. Blacks and whites are clearly being crushed. Went here. All the boxes from 1-15 are black as I have my TV calibrated for RGB Limited. Bringing up the brightness makes the boxes visible again.

Again, brightness/contrast on televisions I have calibrated alter the range of the signal to achieve the desired brightness/contrast. Brightness alters the lower range of the signal, and contrast alters the upper range of the signal. For some reason, monitors do not act this way, and brightness/contrast don't seem to do anything particularly meaningful besides changing the display temperature and color saturation.

Disclaimer: this may not be true for all televisions, but I can vouch for a 6 year old Sharp LCD, as I can for my dad's Panasonic Viera Plasma, our BenQ DLP projector, and my Sony 32EX400. I unfortunately do not have a source, though I have read as much in the past and have found it to be true with all displays I've used, besides monitors.
 
T

TheExodu5

Banned
Neff said:
The colours are markedly bolder too, at least on my TV.
Click to expand...

It compresses the lower (blacks) and upper (whites) ranges on your television. That means that dark colours look darker, and bright colours look brighter. This gives the impression of better color and "pop", but it is in fact lowering your overall contrast ratio.
 
M

Man-is-Obsolete

Member
The better question is does the company that doesn't support movie playback, Dolby Digital 5.1, Optical output, and ethernet even care to patch such a thing?
 
SkylineRKR

SkylineRKR

Member
I hated RGB Full on PS3 (mostly caused problems with black levels), so I eventually took it off, calibrated a bit and its been much better since. I remember the time when everyone was complaining about Gametrailers not using RGB Full for their Ps3 reviews, lol.
 
M

madmook

Member
Man-is-Obsolete said:
The better question is does the company that doesn't support movie playback, Dolby Digital 5.1, Optical output, and ethernet even care to patch such a thing?
Click to expand...
This won't require licensing fees or changing the hardware, so I hope they do get to it eventually. I think the 360 patched the option in with some firmware update.
 
H

Hermii

Member
Neff said:
I'm happy to experiment with electronics and software for optimum performance, but I had no idea what full RGB was until I tried it on my PS3, and I didn't even realise my 360 had it for about half a year.

Now that I do know the difference, and have seen the difference (it is striking), I want it on my Wii U. However for better or worse, simplicity, particularly technical simplicity, is an inherent part of the Nintendo experience.
Click to expand...

Are you telling me there is a setting on my PS3 which makes games look better and is turned off by default ? Why ?
 
M

Mr. Wonderful

Member
SkylineRKR said:
I hated RGB Full on PS3 (mostly caused problems with black levels), so I eventually took it off, calibrated a bit and its been much better since. I remember the time when everyone was complaining about Gametrailers not using RGB Full for their Ps3 reviews, lol.
Click to expand...

If it's not already apparent, this is one of those threads where we have a bunch of people asking for something where they don't even fully understand what it is.

Right up there with the "OMG Wii U was just overclocked by 2.0GHz" thread and "We demand Kid Icarus to come to the Wii Virtual Console!" threads.
 
M

Mudkips

Banned
Option A
Set your TV to full range.
Full range devices will look correct.
Limited devices will output a slightly compressed image (less contrast) compared to full range. You will not lose any detail because of the mismatched settings. Your whites and blacks will be slightly greyer than what your TV is capable of displaying.

Option B
Set your TV to limited.
Full range devices will output a signal that gets crushed on the white and black ends. You will lose detail because of the mismatched settings.
Limited devices will output a slightly compressed image (less contrast) compared to full range. Your whites and blacks will be as white and black as your TV is capable of displaying.

Option C
Set your TV to match your device.
You have to fumble through shitty menus every time you switch between full range and limited devices.
Full range looks correct. No detail is lost.
Limited range looks correct, compressed (less contrast) compared to full range.
You'll never truly know what your TV is doing behind the scenes, whether or not you need to use a specific "game" or "pc" mode to disable certain processing shit, whether or not that one post on that forum you said was right about only one of the inputs being able to disable the processing, or whether or not your shit is being properly passed in full or limited when your devices are hooked up to a receiver and the receiver is hooked up to the TV and you cycle through inputs.

Option A is the best.
Your PC, competent game consoles, and BluRay player will all be full range and will look great.
Your Cable box and Wii U will be limited range. The only downside to the mismatched setting is the slightly greyer whites and blacks from what your TV could otherwise display. It's not worth fumbling through menus to fix every time you want to use a dumb device.
 
O

OG_Original Gamer

Member
My Toshiba supports it, there's a option to change it under HDMI settings along with some other settings. Right now its set limited 235, I may see what I can get out of it, with my current settings.
 
Wishmaster92

Wishmaster92

Member
blu said:
Because the standard tv picture is not full-range, and thus most tv's out there are not factory-set to show full range, or plain do not support.
Click to expand...

But videogames are supposed to run 0-255, i thought 16-235 was video reference. If my tv supports full rgb and the wii u had the option for full rgb should i set it to that?
 
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