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What are the quintessential elements/the appeal of (Wizardry style) dungeon crawlers?

U

Uthred

Member
Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder, Dungeon Master, Bards Tale, Legend of Grimrock, Etrian Odyssey, Elminage, Summon Night, etc. While Wizardry style dungeon crawlers seem to have always been popular in the east they also seem to bee enjoying a small renaissance in the west (admittedly mostly on handhelds) of late. So what do you think are the most important elements of the genre and/or what do you find most enjoyable about them?

I think its safe enough to say that at a bare minium they need to have dungeons to explore (primarily in first person)

Personally I find the party construction and working out synergies between various classes/abilities and powering them up is a lot more enjoyable for me than the mapping/exploration elements.
 
Green Wiggly

Green Wiggly

Member
I personally enjoy puzzle solving, exploration, and multi-party combat strategy the most. Boring dungeons are a pet peeve of mine (one of my main gripes with the persona games I've played, even though they don't technically fit into the genre being discussed here). I also enjoy resource gathering and crafting, as I think that they make the world feel more alive. I've been tempted to explore the genre more after playing Grimrock (which I still need to finish), but damn, some of those older games are obtuse.
 
V

vagabondarts

Member
The appeal to me is maze gameplay and resource management/survival.

There are two major types of first person dungeon crawlers: team based and lone wolf. I like both for different reasons.
 
U

Uthred

Member
Green Wiggly said:
I personally enjoy puzzle solving, exploration, and multi-party combat strategy the most. Boring dungeons are a pet peeve of mine (one of my main gripes with the persona games I've played, even though they don't technically fit into the genre being discussed here). I also enjoy resource gathering and crafting, as I think that they make the world feel more alive. I've been tempted to explore the genre more after playing Grimrock (which I still need to finish), but damn, some of those older games are obtuse.
Click to expand...

What would you consider a boring dungeon? One without puzzles and such or is more to do with layout, etc. ?
 
U

UncleSporky

Member
Character advancement. Skill point investment, something to build characters in a unique way, not just early Dragon Quest style leveling.
 
P

Pinko Marx

Banned
Party customization. I really like creating a party and seeing if their skill builds synchronize well against the maze's challenges.
 
T

ToxicAdam

Member
I found them more challenging than top down RPG's. Usually you don't have time to plan ahead (because your field of vision is so limited), so you can find yourself 'in the shit' pretty quickly. Then the task of trying to drag yourself back to safely with half your team dead or poisoned. Good times.
 
Green Wiggly

Green Wiggly

Member
ToxicAdam said:
I found them more challenging than top down RPG's. Usually you don't have time to plan ahead (because your field of vision is so limited), so you can find yourself 'in the shit' pretty quickly. Then the task of trying to drag yourself back to safely with half your team dead or poisoned. Good times.
Click to expand...

I always get a kick out of this because you know your one surviving member is dragging all of those corpses around with him.
 
V

Velkyn

Member
For me, I think the biggest appeal is the storytelling as it fits into the setting. Typically, stories in 'traditional' dungeon crawlers are pretty barebones if you compare them to your usual RPG. When playing a dungeon crawler, a lot of the gameplay mechanics are pretty similar, so how they set themselves apart tonally is what grabs my attention. The cyberpunkish feel of Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers vs the anime-ish fantasy setting in the Etrian Odyssey series or the "darker" games like The Dark Spire or Grimrock all have a lot in common, but all of them feel so different from each other at the same time. As long as they keep getting made, I'll keep playing 'em.
 
S

Sophia

Member
I can't speak for all of the titles, but for Wizardry/Etrian Odyssey, the quintessential elements are always the party management. How you create your party members, how you handle resources in battle and adventure, how you build your character, etc, etc.

Anyone who's ever played Wizardry 7 knows this. The amount of customization for is so absurd it's downright daunting, even for oldschool veterans. It's what makes it so great. :D
 
U

Uthred

Member
Not that I think it necessarily needs it but there doesnt seem to be a lot of "innovation" in the genre, newer entries generally seem to simply have nicer graphics and maybe some usability improvements (e.g. in game mapping, etc.). But the fundamentals never seem to change that much. I wonder is it possible to innovate without straying so far from the genre that you alienate fans of it?
 
K

KarmaCow

Member
Probably the most important is resource management and the level design ties into that.

I want to feel like I'm stretching myself just a tad too far into a giant dungeon, having to worry about if the next encounter could decimate my party. I do like more puzzley stuff like Grimrock, but I would have liked it more if the combat system didn't become boring after the second encounter.
 
S

spiritfox

Member
It's the survival aspect that draws me into dungeon crawlers. Diving deep into a dangerous dungeon, where a misstep can easily kill you, and monsters waiting around the corner, most RPGs nowdays just do not reach the level of tension that a good dungeon crawler gives. Party management and planning also matter much more in these types of games, and I love it when your carefully planned party manages to conquer the dungeon through the skin of their teeth and grab whatever loot is inside.
 
F

FlyingSaucer

Banned
Party building & customization, and exploration. The more tricky the levels (traps, secret doors), the more happy I would be. I like to envision dungeon RPG as a giant, multi-faceted puzzle : what skills synergies do I need to beat a boss/finish a level without spending too much time on grinding, determining the critical path through a level, etc.

I enjoy plot-centric RPG as much as your next gamer, but I have different expectations from them : for me, they are two separate and dramatically different genres.

Green Wiggly said:
Boring dungeons are a pet peeve of mine (one of my main gripes with the persona games I've played, even though they don't technically fit into the genre being discussed here).
Click to expand...

I'm a long-time fan of Megami Tensei and related games, and this is precisely the point that disappointed me in Persona 3 & 4 : the random-generated levels felt bland.
On the other hand, Strange Journey was genius. I cried tears of blood in Eridanus. I had been a long time since I had to ressort to pen&paper mapping. It felt good.
 
Nocturno999

Nocturno999

Member
They need to have tension to be successful. A very oppressive atmosphere helps a lot. I'm loving Legend of Grimrock right now.
 
R

Rolf NB

Member
Immediate control over a full party with complementary roles is something you rarely see in third-person games, unless they go completely turn-based (SRPGs and the like).

Trying out different party compositions makes the better specimens hihgly replayable.
 
F

fr3shme4t

Neo Member
I personally enjoy the exploration aspects and party development. Finding secrets, cool equpment, etc. never hurts.

It's kinda too bad that a lot of the older games have such poor interfaces by modern UI standards, because they often have very solid and fun gameplay hidden behind obtuse menus and confusing inputs.
 
F

fr3shme4t

Neo Member
Uthred said:
Not that I think it necessarily needs it but there doesnt seem to be a lot of "innovation" in the genre, newer entries generally seem to simply have nicer graphics and maybe some usability improvements (e.g. in game mapping, etc.). But the fundamentals never seem to change that much. I wonder is it possible to innovate without straying so far from the genre that you alienate fans of it?
Click to expand...

In some sense I think a lot of "innovation" within genres is needed. Like you say, if you change too much you end of with a different type of game. Not to say I'm against innovation, I like new ideas too. But change for change's sake doesn't result in a better game.

Honestly most "innovation" in games the last decade other than graphcs is the blending of genres - adding RPG elements to action games and adding more action to RPGs, etc. rather than anything truly new ideas being created.

If you compare games to other media like tv and film, you can have enjoyable experiences without really changing anything other than the characers and settings - really most action/adventure movies have the same general plot, but people still watch them.

Specifically with dungeon crawlers, I think for many people (designers and players) they're really about nostalgia for their gaming past rather than looking for something new.
 
F

Fine Ham Abounds

Member
Dungeons of Daggorath was my first RPG. I'll never forget as a kid freaking out as that big ogre materialized around the corner just as my torch began to die, and my poor character dropped dead of a heart attack from running away too fast.

I haven't played nearly as much of this genre as I'd like since Dragon Warrior sent me on a different RPG path, but this kind of game always works for me, and I think it's because it always seems to engage my imagination more than many other genres. Something about the very precise gameplay mixed with more interpretive worldbuilding makes these special.
 
U

Uthred

Member
fr3shme4t said:
In some sense I think a lot of "innovation" within genres is needed. Like you say, if you change too much you end of with a different type of game. Not to say I'm against innovation, I like new ideas too. But change for change's sake doesn't result in a better game.

Honestly most "innovation" in games the last decade other than graphcs is the blending of genres - adding RPG elements to action games and adding more action to RPGs, etc. rather than anything truly new ideas being created.

If you compare games to other media like tv and film, you can have enjoyable experiences without really changing anything other than the characers and settings - really most action/adventure movies have the same general plot, but people still watch them.

Specifically with dungeon crawlers, I think for many people (designers and players) they're really about nostalgia for their gaming past rather than looking for something new.
Click to expand...

Good points, I agree that in gaming most innovation tends to be iterative rather than revolutionary. The improved interfaces and added convenience (e.g. casual difficulties, auto-mapping, etc.) seem almost like the most that can be expected without blowing the genre "wide open".
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
Exploration, NPCs with intriguing stories and dialogue, world building, atmosphere(great music helps here).

The Dark Spire, Elminage and Etrian Odyssey's dungeons were made all the more memorable due to the great tracks some of them used.

Who doesn't recall the first floor fondly after a track like that starting the game off?



Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land had a minimal OST, but it easily had the best use of NPCs and plot I've ever seen in a dungeon crawler.

wiz_6.jpg


Luna Light Bar
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
Boy was Elminage Ibun a huge departure, and not in a good way. If we get II, III, and Gothic localized, I'm set for life.
 
U

Uthred

Member
nailbombxx said:
Ontop of the exploration, the character development and the puzzles, a lot of dungeon crawlers have cool and interesting monster designs, here's some examples.

The art is a large part of the appeal to these games for me. Sorry for the huge post.
Click to expand...

I'd love to see Students of the Round or Demon Gaze get localised
 
L

Lasdrub

Member
Uthred said:
Personally I find the party construction and working out synergies between various classes/abilities and powering them up is a lot more enjoyable for me than the mapping/exploration elements.
Click to expand...

I agree. The harder the game, the more carefully you have to build your party. I like Etrian Odyssey because it is a difficult game. It makes me feel like I have to plan to succeed, and I feel awesome when my plan comes together. The exploration stuff is fine, but not as exciting as the party building.
 
U

Uthred

Member
cj_iwakura said:
Students of the Round looks great, but isn't Demon Gaze just another fan-service cheesecake fest wearing dungeon crawler makeup?
Click to expand...

Not sure to be honest, Ive only seen preview screenshots of it, none of which were particularly cheescakey. As its a sort of sequel to KotR I assumed it was more of the same with a more technological aesthetic.
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
Uthred said:
Not sure to be honest, Ive only seen preview screenshots of it, none of which were particularly cheescakey. As its a sort of sequel to KotR I assumed it was more of the same with a more technological aesthetic.
Click to expand...

Some other thread showed that it had some really risque stuff.
 
S

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
Looking from the outside in, I think the appeal of the games comes from the fact that they're very traditional; They rarely ever seem to change many of their standbys, and adhere by a stiff set of rules that really feels rustic and overly-aged, to one who hasn't been following these styles of games.

The first things I thought when I played the Wizardry Demo on PSN:
  • "Why can't I target the enemy I WANT to hit? Why can I only hit groups?"
  • "Limited spell cast PER LEVEL? What is this, NES?"
  • "Yay, random stats. So it's just wasting my time, making me re-roll, rather than just starting me off with a set pool. Why?!?"
  • "All these classes... like everyone's not just going to pick the best of each, and play on..."
  • I kinda wish I could see the enemies. I'd like to actually plan back attacks, ambushes, not just roll a chance that it might happen.

Music, Art, and personality where the things that intrigued me. But so much of it seems so silly. We've got graphics that can put these creatures in dungeons, that could bring this beautiful art to animated life... I'd love to see strategy expanded from "how many times can you cast the spell?" to "how do you USE you spell?" A random firebolt won't do much damage, but if I make an opening for my mage to get close, and they melee-range that bolt directly to a weak-point, well, I could choose to run, and use the traps of the dungeon against the enemy, or maybe just run the whole time!

Class of Heroes 2 and (To a lesser extent) Unchained Blades are my first serious attempts at this genre. I am growing a greater appreciation for the traditional style of them, but at the same time, I dream about how these formulas could receive real development.

I am glad with the amount of these games that have appeared recently, however. I feel like I can get a crash course in many of the genre standbys, cheaply, and with little hassle. If I can finally beat the ones I own, I look forward to going back and trying out Elimage PSP, or EO if I ever get a 3DS...
 
L

leroidys

Member
I'm wanting to get more into the genre after playing Persona 3 (I know it's not the same genre exactly, but Tartarus is similar).

I really wish some of the Wizardry games were on vita. I really like the PS3 demo, but have no desire to play it on my PS3.
 
R

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I haven't played many of these games at all, but to me it's exploration -- the feeling of uncovering more and more secrets.
 
N

nailbombxx

Member
cj_iwakura said:
Boy was Elminage Ibun a huge departure, and not in a good way. If we get II, III, and Gothic localized, I'm set for life.
Click to expand...

But those monster designs! I've never played it, but it looks so pretty.

RedSwirl said:
I haven't played many of these games at all, but to me it's exploration -- the feeling of uncovering more and more secrets.
Click to expand...

This. Its very addicting to leave no rock left unturned, and it becomes intense when something unexpected happens, and suspenseful when you expect the worst. From Software captured this aspect of dungeon crawling perfectly with the Souls games, but in a 3D action game.
 
Darkmakaimura

Darkmakaimura

Member
Ctrl + F = no Ultima Underworld?

I am disappoint.

My favorite is the whole idea of an enormous indoor dungeon to explore. Ultima Underworld is so huge, you feel like you're exploring a real underworld.

Also, this obscure game:

IimvQ8J.png


Damn, I loved that game as a kid!

nailbombxx said:
Ontop of the exploration, the character development and the puzzles, a lot of dungeon crawlers have cool and interesting monster designs, here's some examples.

Students of the Round


Demon Gaze


Elminage Original


And Elminage Ibun


The art is a large part of the appeal to these games for me. Sorry for the huge post.
Click to expand...
Damn, all those games look oh so good!
 
L

larvi

Member
It must be party based and you must be able to create your party from scratch at the beginning of the game. The more choices in races/classes/stat allocations/skills/spells/etc the better. If it is done right the first day/night I play the game will be pretty much spent researching my options and choosing my party and when I'm not playing I'll be thinking about what I want to change.

I also want to be able to add/remove party members at any time during the game. I also like it when the game lets you rescue your own party with another party if you happen to die rather than just go back to a previous save point. And the difficulty needs to be hard enough so that you will die often.
 
U

Uthred

Member
larvi said:
It must be party based and you must be able to create your party from scratch at the beginning of the game. The more choices in races/classes/stat allocations/skills/spells/etc the better. If it is done right the first day/night I play the game will be pretty much spent researching my options and choosing my party and when I'm not playing I'll be thinking about what I want to change.
Click to expand...

This is something I certainly agree with, working out builds is a pretty big part of why I play these games. I recently started playing Unchained Blades (which Id missed first time around) and its interesting to see just how many options theyve crammed in, I suppose thats one alternative to the innovation mentioned above. As opposed to trying to innovate (possibly out of the genre) you can expand the game laterally, adding in a myriad of customisation options and sub-systems. One has to imagine that balance probably suffers at some point. Though that being said I dont think perfect balance is necessarily a virtue for this style of game (its ok to be able to break the game, you just shouldnt be able to do it trivially and preferably you simply cant do it on higher difficulties/newgame+/post ending content)
 
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