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Manfred Linzer of Shin'en speaks of the Wii U's tech (eDRAM, etc) in great detail

http://hdwarriors.com/general-impression-of-wii-u-edram-explained-by-shinen/

‘Wii U eDRAM usage is comparable to the eDRAM in the XBOX360, but on Wii U you have enough eDRAM to use if for 1080p rendering.

In comparison, on XBOX360 you usually had to render in sub 720p resolutions or in mutliple passes.

Even if you don’t use MSAA (MultiSample Anti-Aliasing) you already need around 16Mb just for a 1080p framebuffer (with double buffering). You simply don’t have that with XBOX360 eDRAM. As far as I know Microsoft corrected that issue and put also 32MB of Fast Ram into their new console.

We use the eDRAM in the Wii U for the actual framebuffers, intermediate framebuffer captures, as a fast scratch memory for some CPU intense work and for other GPU memory writes.

Using eDRAM properly is a simple way to get extra performance without any other optimizations.

In general, development for Wii U CPU+GPU is simple. You don’t need complicated setups or workarounds for things like HDR(High Dynamic Range)or linear RGB (Color Modeling). What we also like is that there are plenty of possibilities for speeding up your rendering and code, but you don’t have to dig deep for them to get proper performance.

For instance, all of our shaders used in ‘Nano Assault Neo’ are not really optimized. We just used the first iteration of them because they were already fast enough. We looked later through the shaders dis-assembly and noticed we can make them 30-40% faster by better pipeline usage or better hints for the shader compiler.

As ‘Nano Assault Neo’ never had a problem running at 60fps (including a 2nd screen rendering at 60fps on the GamePad) we didn’t have to do that kind of optimizations back then. For CPU usage ‘Nano Assault Neo’ only used the main CPU core. The two other cores were almost idle, beside a few percent used for our audio thread.

So all in all ‘Nano Assault Neo’ only used a fraction of the currently available resources on Wii U and looks and plays quite nice. And for the future, don’t forget that in many consoles, early in their life cycle, not all resources were already useable or accessible via the SDK. So we are sure the best is yet to come for Wii U.’

The game in question (Nano Assault Neo):

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screen02.jpg

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What does GAF have to say?
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Very interesting read, thank you for sharing it. :)

Even if very few games are released in its life cycle, I think the serious games released on it will all look very good.
 

MarkusRJR

Member
So it's better than PS3/360 in a lot of aspects, but I heard that the CPU wasn't as good as the PS3/360 and the RAM whilst being more abundant was slower.

Is that still the case and this guy just is just glossing over the negatives, or has that been debunked as false jnfo?
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
So it's better than PS3/360 in a lot of aspects? I heard that the CPU wasn't as good as the PS3/360 and the RAM whilst being more abundant was slower.

Is that still the case and this guy just is just glossing over the negatives?

The eDRAM isn't the system RAM (the thing people refer to as being low bandwidth), it's the video RAM.

The eDRAM is inarguably larger than the 360's eDRAM pool, and thus you don't have to deal with tiling.

Edit: Well, assuming you don't have a ton of buffers to resolve that is.
 
Actually I'm certain their next game (STRONGLY hinted to be FAST 2) will be announce at the Fall Conference, as was Nano Assault Neo last year.
 

MarkusRJR

Member
The eDRAM isn't the system RAM, it's the video RAM.

That is inarguably larger than the 360's eDRAM pool, and thus you don't have to deal with tiling.
I wasn't referring the the eDRAM, but rather the system's main RAM. I'm sure we can all agree the eDRAM situation is way better on the Wii U.

Actually I'm certain their next game (STRONGLY hinted to be FAST 2) will be announce at the Fall Conference, as was Nano Assault Neo last year.
Awesome. I loved FAST do much when it came out. Not as good as WipEout, but it was enjoyable for what it was and presumably how low budget it was.
 

pmj

Member
They should have spent some of those vast quantities of unused resources on some anti-aliasing.
 

jmls1121

Banned
These guys have been doing amazing things with Nintendo hardware for years now. I am always amazed at the low file sizes for their games.
 

69wpm

Member
So it's better than PS3/360 in a lot of aspects, but I heard that the CPU wasn't as good as the PS3/360.

The problem with that is that, as Shin'en said, they used only 1 of the 3 cores available because they only had 1 available I guess? I bet most launch games use only 1 core hence some performance problems.


They should have spent some of those vast quantities of unused resources on some anti-aliasing.

Uhh, it uses some form of FXAA. From Twitter:

Yes, something similiar to FXAA, but not everywhere as it made the game too blurry.
 

bobeth

Member
The problem with that is that, as Shin'en said, they used only 1 of the 3 cores available because they only had 1 available I guess? I bet most launch games use only 1 core hence some performance problems.

I don't think you're right..
 

Azure J

Member
So native 1080p titles on Wii U can still be a thing? Cool.

Hearing that all of Nano Assault Neo was done on one CPU core is kinda nuts (to me) actually.
 

JordanN

Banned
So native 1080p titles on Wii U can still be a thing? Cool.

Hearing that all of Nano Assault Neo was done on one CPU core is kinda nuts (to me) actually.
PS3/360 can do native 1080p. I don't think anyone said Wii U couldn't.

But the only 1080p games on Wii U so far are very simple titles that are not as complex as 720p ones. That's where the difference comes from.
 

AzaK

Member
PS3/360 can do native 1080p. I don't think anyone said Wii U couldn't.

But the only 1080p games on Wii U so far are very simple titles that are not as complex as 720p ones. That's where the difference comes from.

He's talking about 1080p fitting in eDRAM to take advantage of that. 360 had to tile render.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
PS3/360 can do native 1080p. I don't think anyone said Wii U couldn't.

But the only 1080p games on Wii U so far are very simple titles that are not as complex as 720p ones. That's where the difference comes from.

Right, the eDRAM situation is okay for 1080p on Wii U, but the number of per pixel calculations you have to do versus the raw power of the GPU can be an issue for a lot of titles.
 
The PS3 didn't have eDRAM actually. It just had GDDR3 attached to the GPU.

PS4 doesn't have any either since they just went with a unified GDDR5 solution for everything.
And doesn't the 360 have 10MB?

edit: Yep, thanks StevieP.

Though from what we've settled on in the WiiU GPU thread the 360 eDram has a faster speed.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Wow. I guess Wii U and Xbone use regular DDR3 and not GDDR3?

Yes the 360 used GDDR3 memory for everything and then had 10 MB of eDRAM to help with visual performance.

The Wii U has some kind of notably slow DDR system RAM setup (it's about half the speed of the 360's main memory setup), but has 32 MB of eDRAM for visual purposes to compensate for that.

The Xbox 360 has high speed DDR3 (it's about 3x the speed of the GDDR3 in the 360) for its main memory, and then 32 MB of high bandwidth eSRAM for its graphics card.

The PS4 just has GDDR5 (highest bandwidth of anything mentioned here so far) for everything in the system. That has slightly higher latency though than a system memory/eDRAM situation, but a notably large bandwidth and simplicity advantage over the other implementations. You could in theory make an ultra fast bandwidth solution using embedded RAM, but none of the console makers actually has the regular speed of GDDR5 beat in their current implementations.
 

Zero148

Member
Actually I'm certain their next game (STRONGLY hinted to be FAST 2) will be announce at the Fall Conference, as was Nano Assault Neo last year.

Shin'en Multimedia said:
@Zero148 We will release news about our Wii U games in Q3 this year.

pretty sure you are right, I asked them on Twitter about their WiiU projects missing at E3. Also I think NAN was announced at E3
 

Ryoku

Member
And doesn't the 360 have 10MB?

edit: Yep, thanks StevieP.

Though from what we've settled on in the WiiU GPU thread the 360 eDram has a faster speed.

The 10MB eDRAM (internally is 256GB/s) on XB360 was limited to a 32GB/s bus to the GPU. This means it could only be used for things such as AA, and z-buffering.

EDIT: For comparison, the eDRAM in Wii U is on the same die as the GPU.
 

CTLance

Member
Intredasting. Thanks for posting that.

It's strange that they basically only use one CPU core and unoptimized shaders. Wonder why they didn't at least utilise the other CPU cores. Multithreading is comparatively common nowadays ... Then again, they probably didn't need it, as evidenced by the final product.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
The 10MB eDRAM (internally is 256GB/s) on XB360 was limited to a 32GB/s bus to the GPU. This means it could only be used for things such as AA, and z-buffering.

Right, this is why we saw some Xbox 360 titles having AA early in the generation when PS3 titles didn't, but that kind of faded as everyone switched over to deferred renderers which aren't super fond of MSAA.

Then we entered the world of blur filters, which seemingly will follow us through this generation as well.
 
Yes the 360 used GDDR3 memory for everything and then had 10 MB of eDRAM to help with visual performance.

The Wii U has some kind of notably slow DDR system RAM setup (it's about half the speed of the 360's main memory setup), but has 32 MB of eDRAM for visual purposes to compensate for that.

The Xbox 360 has high speed DDR3 (it's about 3x the speed of the GDDR3 in the 360) for its main memory, and then 32 MB of high bandwidth eSRAM for its graphics card.

The PS4 just has GDDR5 (highest bandwidth of anything mentioned here so far) for everything in the system. That has slightly higher latency though than a system memory/eDRAM situation, but a notably large bandwidth and simplicity advantage over the other implementations. You could in theory make an ultra fast bandwidth solution using embedded RAM, but no one actually has the regular speed of GDDR5 beat in their current implementations.
So why haven't you been an active member of these threads before?

You are being very concise and accurate with your depictions here my friend. Much better to talk to than the norm in tech oriented threads. Or maybe I just rarely am on at the same time as you and don't tend to notice your posts?

Anyway good right up. Easy to understand, while still being accurate. Good show.
 

Azure J

Member
PS3/360 can do native 1080p. I don't think anyone said Wii U couldn't.

But the only 1080p games on Wii U so far are very simple titles that are not as complex as 720p ones. That's where the difference comes from.

He's talking about 1080p fitting in eDRAM to take advantage of that. 360 had to tile render.

Right, the eDRAM situation is okay for 1080p on Wii U, but the number of per pixel calculations you have to do versus the raw power of the GPU can be an issue for a lot of titles.

Thanks guys. Been a while since I kept up on the GPU side of things.
 

Raist

Banned
Is Shi'nen the new High Voltage? They keep talking about how good the tech is, but they're a rather small and limited studio.
 

Ryoku

Member
I may be taking his comments out of context, but is he implying or suggesting that WiiU eDRAM bandwidth is 256 GB/s?

He's talking about usage. But I wouldn't be too surprised if the bandwidth was similar to XB360's eDRAM. I believe the 2 smaller pools (2MB+1MB?) are faster than the 32MB pool.
 
The 10MB eDRAM (internally is 256GB/s) on XB360 was limited to a 32GB/s bus to the GPU. This means it could only be used for things such as AA, and z-buffering.

EDIT: For comparison, the eDRAM in Wii U is on the same die as the GPU.
Which makes it's uses much wider than the 360's yes.

I wasn't meaning to imply that was an implicit advantage for the 360.
 
Right, this is why we saw some Xbox 360 titles having AA early in the generation when PS3 titles didn't, but that kind of faded as everyone switched over to deferred renderers which aren't super fond of MSAA.

Then we entered the world of blur filters, which seemingly will follow us through this generation as well.

Awesomely enough some game engines are still actively supporting MSAA incombination with non-blurry TAA and PPAA.

Cryengine 3 for example.
 

Ryoku

Member
Which makes it's uses much wider than the 360's yes.

I wasn't meaning to imply that was an implicit advantage for the 360.

Nah, I've seen you post in the GPU thread, so I'm pretty sure you knew this already. It's for the people who don't keep up with the Wii U GPU information.
 

jmls1121

Banned
Is Shi'nen the new High Voltage? They keep talking about how good the tech is, but they're a rather small and limited studio.

They are a very small group of tech geeks that are able to turn a profit with Nintendo download games. They are not looking to expand. someone asked them if they accept if Nintendo approached them with the next F-Zero, and they said no. They are happy doing what they do. I have a lot of respect for that.
 
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