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The PRESSURE of PIKMIN 3: Why Miyamoto is right to say this game is one of his BEST
- Thread starter Neiteio
- Start date
The restrictions aren't arbitrary. They're already built into the game, they just don't keep you from finishing it. The game keeps track of how many fruit you collected, how many days it took you, and how many pikmin you gained/lost. It's not hard to finish the game. It's hard to finish the game in less days with more fruit and less pikmin deaths. Easy to learn, difficult to master. How is that bad game design?
Of course it's valid. What I was trying to say is that if you don't care to engage with the game fully and you complain that it's not engaging, then the fault is not with the game.
The restrictions aren't arbitrary. The only arbitrary restriction I have seen brought up was the one a few posts ago suggesting to skip directly to "end day" every other day. Stuff like actively multitasking and trying to play efficiently and without losing many or any Pikmin aren't arbitrary restrictions. The game is designed for exactly that. Which, again, is the whole point of this thread.
And my point about the memos was that you said there wasn't anything to do besides getting fruit. Which there is.
Also, while you're free to be disappointed by the game, that doesn't preclude it from being called Miyamoto's best by others. You'll find that there's always someone who disagrees, even if you were to just go with Mario 64 or Ocarina.
Carpe Libertatem
Member
How many days did you take to beat the game? How many Pikmin died?
20-something, I think. 27 maybe? Or early 30s, somewhere in that range.
How many Pikmin died? No idea, I didn't care because I had basically infinite of those little guys and I didn't get anything for having a low death number. No consequence for losing them and no reward for keeping them = I don't care about them.
papercan55
Member
i agree, there is no challenge.
enemies in this game pose no threat at all which doesn't help, all you need to do is have a large group of pikmin and then charge. almost insta-kills anything.
going for a low death, low amount of days run is no fun, and no challenge because the game is far too easy in the first place.
if the only challenge stems from planning your route to pick up the fruit then that is bad design.
give it a few months and we will see tons of people with no pikmin deaths runs,
try and remember how hard it was in the prequels to do that.
and the memo's are pointless, the secret ones do nothing, absolutely nothing of any worth, that in itself is bad game design.
where's the secret? where's the reward for finding all of them? a series of short videos that explain and contribute nothing to the game, great.
the challenge in this game has been cut out of the campaign,
in my opinion down to the botched gamepad controls.
if nintendo knew for certain that everyone would be using a wii remote for aiming then i'm certain the game would be much harder.
What about leader boards?
papercan55
Member
leaderboards in this game are pointless though.
let's see how fast two people can together find the most glitches and cheat there way through the levels, great.
i don't discover or hear about the glitch, tough luck for me..
? how is a leaderboard ever pointless? it's always either you having a high score or not. and you either care or don't. what is different in Pikmin 3 that makes it "pointless"?
I haven't gotten my hands on Pikmin 3 yet, but if that element - of getting a challenge out if the effort you put in - is well preserved(most people who played it seem to think so), then I'm going to have a ton of fun with this game.
In Pikmin 1, I was never content to just barely making it through each day. I would always revise my strategy, finding the most effective way to take out enemies and allocate pikmin to various tasks. There were days I'd bring in 4 parts, or in one particular case, 5 parts(with the right preparations made the day before).
With all the different tasks added to Pikmin 3, the new types of Pikmin, puzzles, multiple leaders, the necessity for fruit, and that marriage of the best design philosophies from the two previous games, the doors are blown wide open for "self-challenge." So yeah, from what I've seen of Pikmin 3 so far, it may well deserve every accolade.
Nicely written OP, btw.
In Pikmin 1, I was never content to just barely making it through each day. I would always revise my strategy, finding the most effective way to take out enemies and allocate pikmin to various tasks. There were days I'd bring in 4 parts, or in one particular case, 5 parts(with the right preparations made the day before).
With all the different tasks added to Pikmin 3, the new types of Pikmin, puzzles, multiple leaders, the necessity for fruit, and that marriage of the best design philosophies from the two previous games, the doors are blown wide open for "self-challenge." So yeah, from what I've seen of Pikmin 3 so far, it may well deserve every accolade.
Nicely written OP, btw.
OP here. On the topic of the game's challenge, it naturally emerges when I play the way I like to play games -- trying to master the mechanics and tackle the challenges before me with expert efficiency. That's not artificially inflating the challenge. Also, this thread isn't about challenge alone; it's more about how doing well keeps one busy, busy, busy, and how this makes for nonstop engagement. Furthermore, it's about how they've hit the "sweet spot" between the difficulty curve in Pikmin 1 (too restrictive) and Pikmin 2 (not restrictive enough). They've struck a balance where, at least in my experience, you feel compelled to do your best, but without feeling suffocated. And even as you start to fill your fridge with juice, the fact each day depletes one bottle, guaranteed, creates the lingering specter of a limit -- far off for now, perhaps, but incentive enough to make each day "fruitful." That same limit makes the retrieval of fruit richly rewarding in a way collecting treasure in Pikmin 2 never was -- the benefit is tangible beyond simple progress toward the story, since it extends the longevity of your expedition. And again, without the restrictive 30-day limit of Pikmin 1. The best of both worlds, finally achieved in Pikmin 3. 
papercan55
Member
leaderboards, like most leaderboards become pointless as soon as people start cheating and finding glitches, in pikmin 3's case that has already started with people using the dodge whistle glitch to backflip/glitch through or over objects and gaps that require either another person to help you, or certain pikmin to get through, bypassing huge chunks of the game.
this makes the leaderboard scores pointless as there are probably lots of people out there that love pikmin 3, love trying to improve their score but discover the glitch.
it's the same for most leaderboards, not just pikmin's, it's not a case of who is best, but who can hack/glitch cheat the most.
which for me at least, makes them pointless.
Carpe Libertatem
Member
You certainly have a while to go to "master" the game if you took over 30 days to complete.
The number of Pikmin that died matters because it directly impacts how fast you are able to accomplish other tasks. If you spend a portion of each day replenishing your Pikmin because they died, you'll have less time to get fruit and other objectives.
But if you only play a game to the end, Pikmin probably isn't for you. Most Nintendo games probably aren't. And that's fine - different people play games for different reasons.
You're gonna have a blast then!
I think they made this game for you.Well, I wouldn't be surprised if that gets patched. They did the same for MK7 when that messed up competitive mp.
The Librarian
Banned
The ground textures in the game aren't a flaw. If you're playing the game – at least, this was the way it was for me – you won't notice the ground textures. You're too busy concentrating on the enemies or what activities you're doing at the time or juts looking at the whole environment around you.
As for the controls, I don't think there's anything wrong with the gamepad/wiimote/nunchuck set up. The amount of time you spend looking at the gamepad making a captain go where you need him/her to go is relatively small to what you actually do on screen. Also, Pikming 3 has a very passive challenge. The challenge is doing however much you can in a single day and maximizing your time effectively. It's not about killing Bulborbs or whatever dangerous creatures there are.
Also, Pikmin 3 is my GotY so far. Waiting to see if Tropical Freeze bumps it down a notch. The game is a lot of fun and very pretty.
Try it. I dare you. Then come back and tell me how *easy* the game is.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
My fruit fervor caused me to lose a half-dozen Flower Pikmin when I sent my men to carry green grapes (ahem... Dawn Pustules) back to the Drake. But man oh man, their sacrifice was not in vain -- we now have a full row of juice (and in real life, I have a hankering for blended juices myself)! With all dat juice, I can start thoroughly combing the far reaches of levels. Also, the battle with the Vehemoth Phosbat was an instant classic. Amazing creature design, even by the series' high standards, and the setting with the bulbs strung up in the cave was delightful. Not saying more, though, so as to avoid spoiling others.
Are you kidding me, you've been going on and on about this game and you've only just now gotten the third captain? Less talking, more playing! Lawd!
For the record, the enemies you can one-hit by landing on them are all from previous games. Nothing was made easier there.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
I agree, you can make your own challenge. I was just commenting on the difficulty of completing the story mode. I guess I misunderstood the OP. The mission mode is great. It was very challenging and satisfying to platinum them all.
All this is saying is that you're not playing very well.
Which is the whole point of this thread.
These kind of comments are so annoying. If the game wanted you to play faster they wouldn't have given you 100 days worth of fruit. Don't insult people for enjoying the game differently than you.
I don't think the "you're playing it wrong" defense is ever a good one. There are as many different play styles as there are types of games. Some types of experiences simply won't mesh with certain gamers. The Pikmin franchise presents such a unique collaboration of idea's that it's predictably going to divide people.
I've only played Pikmin 2, and am about half way through Pikmin 3 ( I like to take to my time), and from a design stand point, I think Pikmin 3 certainly outclasses the former. In Pikmin 2 your complete narrative motivation is - go and find treasure and that's that. I like that Pikmin 3 is a little more episodic, and the level design and consistency of the boss fights serve that motivation. It's just way better paced.
When I try to consider complaints, I try to think if that particular complaint is validated from a design standpoint. That's why I don't miss the white and purple pikmin, because there was a creative choice not to build the game around their necessity, and the game feels tighter because of that. Each individual Pikmin type has a uniquely presented toolset which gives the game a Metroid flavor to how the player is meant to tackle the environments.
My main complaint has already been voiced, and it's the scaled back amount of creatures that inhabit the world, especially compared to Pikmin 2. It felt like there was a more dynamic ecosystem present between all the creatures in that game, including how they interacted with each other or with the pikmin. I like how some of the creatures in Pikmin 2 were not necessarily interested in just killing your pikmin, but presented a conflict in other ways, like stealing your treasure or taking your berries. It just created more interesting emergent mini-scenarios.
I've only played Pikmin 2, and am about half way through Pikmin 3 ( I like to take to my time), and from a design stand point, I think Pikmin 3 certainly outclasses the former. In Pikmin 2 your complete narrative motivation is - go and find treasure and that's that. I like that Pikmin 3 is a little more episodic, and the level design and consistency of the boss fights serve that motivation. It's just way better paced.
When I try to consider complaints, I try to think if that particular complaint is validated from a design standpoint. That's why I don't miss the white and purple pikmin, because there was a creative choice not to build the game around their necessity, and the game feels tighter because of that. Each individual Pikmin type has a uniquely presented toolset which gives the game a Metroid flavor to how the player is meant to tackle the environments.
My main complaint has already been voiced, and it's the scaled back amount of creatures that inhabit the world, especially compared to Pikmin 2. It felt like there was a more dynamic ecosystem present between all the creatures in that game, including how they interacted with each other or with the pikmin. I like how some of the creatures in Pikmin 2 were not necessarily interested in just killing your pikmin, but presented a conflict in other ways, like stealing your treasure or taking your berries. It just created more interesting emergent mini-scenarios.
What intrigued me about pikmin 3 was I never felt particulary challenged playing it. It feels like your supposed to get all the way through, I was waiting for it to get difficult it never did the challenge comes from pushing yourself to improve your efficiency. It definitely felt very fresh compared to everything else iv played this year.
I totally agree. The only challenge I felt came from my own self, and I re-played a lot of days near the beginning just because I knew I could do better.
There's been no PRESSURE during my playthrough of Pikmin 3 and that's probably what made it so fresh and fun.
Pikmin 3 also makes another great case for the Wii Remote + Nunchuck.
Disagree on both accounts. The game doesn't "want" you to play faster, it allows/challenges you to play faster but you don't have to which is why it's nonsense to say it's easy. It's essentially like picking easy over hard in the start menu. You're either engaging the challenge or you're not but you can't call the game easy because you picked the easy way through.
I'm also not insulting anyone for "enjoying the differently than I" when I say you weren't playing "well" when you took 50+ days to finish it. It's totally fine to do that and I might even reach the same area once I'm done collecting all fruit but it simply means you (or we) aren't playing very "well" (as in efficiently, never having idle units doing nothing).
The difference in Pikmin 3 is really the dynamic, player controlled difficulty. You're not forcing something on you by selecting "hard" before you load the game. You're either accepting an unspoken challenge to play better or you're not, whichever you prefer at any given time.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
That's fine, I can tell from this post that we just don't see eye to eye on this, and thats fine. So I'll just leave it at that.
I dedicated an in-game week to finding fruit before advancing the story and finding the third captain. Also, multiplayer keeps sidetracking me!
Really, though, I think it's fair to say I'm impressed by the perfect difficulty curve this game has from the start. Refreshing in this day and age.
No no no, you misunderstood me, I meant your own leaderboards.
I now have roughly two rows full of juice. The Sandbelching Meerslug is slain and the path to Twilight River is open. Every huge haul of fruit is so incredibly satisfying. Also, I just started using the feature where you can put your captains on auto-pilot and have them walk to a location of your choosing. Dividing and conquering is quicker than ever. About 20 days in, so I'm not setting any speed records, but I continue to feel constantly engaged and pulled in multiple directions at once. Having four regions open for exploration opens the game nicely.
The final gorgeous level, for me, is just an amazing example of game design. It throws everything that you've learned throughout the game: multitasking, puzzle solving, combat. It pushes the pressure and tension, but that allowance of coming back the next day helps to make it less stressful. Whatever little progress you made remains so you don't feel like you start back from square one. And then at the end, you end up with a good old fashion satisfying brawl.
As with the entire game, the additional challenge is on you if you want to beat your own time and minimize Pikmin casualties. Just all around wonderful, weird, and brilliant stuff.
As with the entire game, the additional challenge is on you if you want to beat your own time and minimize Pikmin casualties. Just all around wonderful, weird, and brilliant stuff.
Don't know if it's Miyamoto best game (He's not even the game director) but it's my GOTY by far at the moment (Haven't played TLOU yet but going by replayability and time spent alone, I don't think TLOU can compete).
The game is pretty much perfect to me. The solo campaign feels slightly short on a first play through but it's probably just because I didn't want the game to end.
It's another timeless Nintendo classic that will age very well.
The game is pretty much perfect to me. The solo campaign feels slightly short on a first play through but it's probably just because I didn't want the game to end.
It's another timeless Nintendo classic that will age very well.
The way this game was looking, I was about to get a WiiU over it. I was waiting to hear about the difficulty as people played the game. I need games to be difficult, especially when it comes to strategy games (I'm that dude who loves Xcom in Impossible mode). So I think I'll hold off on this purchase for now based on this and others who are saying the same thing.
To be fair, he hasn't directed a game since Mario Artist on the 64DD. Not even the first Pikmin. It's still considered his baby.
Did you read the thread, though? As it explains why both of those are subjective impressions and not objective facts? I call everyone crazy lamenting a "lack of content" in this game. And the dynamic difficulty and why it is perfect as is has been discussed exhaustively as well. The difficulty comes from the goal you yourself set. It's just something that happens naturally through gameplay and not an artificial "difficulty select" at the start screen.
Freezie KO
Banned
I do wish it was more challenging to actually beat (like Pikmin 2 with its rogue's gallery of enemy creatures). But the whole thing is just so enjoyable and fun that it's still my GOTY so far. The rock and pink pikmin are great additions.
No.
I've read every post, considering I'm about to drop $400 just to play this game. I have to be *sure* that this game will kick my behind, and what I'm gathering is that it *might*. I just can't buy a WiiU right now over a game that *might* be difficult. I will get a WiiU one day and I will play this, I just see that I don't need to absolutely have this in my life atm.
Freezie KO
Banned
It's not a difficult game at all, unless you like adding self-imposed challenge. That said, it's a damn fun game.
And Mission Mode is very challenging to get Platinum medals.
Haunted
Member
That's a shame. :/