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My Kickstarter Nightmare: Soul Saga Edition

E

Elessartelrunya

Member
jWJd3B2.jpg


Sorry for the wall of text, but recent events with this project have really pissed me off, here's my "story"...

So today I was banned from the Soul Saga (DisasterCake) forum;
http://forums.disastercake.com/

This came as a surprise since I'm generally a quiet and fair member. I'm a moderator for a few sites, a respected member on countless others, and yet today sees me banned for the first time in as long as I can remember.

Why was I banned? Well it all started when Mike Gale launched a Kickstarter campaign called "Soul Saga: Episode 1". Based on the original KS campaign, the art was very "chibi", similar to Final Fantasy 3 and 4 on the PSP, Bravely Default on the 3DS, etc. This IMMEDIATELY drew me in as I loved those first two games and cannot wait to play Bravely Default. The gameplay in Soul Saga was going to be similar to FFX and other JRPG's according to the campaign page;

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/disastercake/soul-saga-a-j-rpg-inspired-by-playstation-classics

If you compare the art and gameplay, to what was recently posted in the Developer Diaries on the forum (and then restricted to members who would be "respectful" -- his words --), it sounds like things are changing considerably. Here's a comparison of the original art (during the KS campaign) and the two redesigns (AFTER the campaign closed);

NFqL3UE.png


Couple these drastic art style changes with recent posts from Mike Gale (campaign creator, man behind DisasterCake) stating "major" changes were coming and that he was going to need to reduce the scope of the project, and it's only natural some people would begin to question what they backed/invested in.

And that brings me to my current issue. As an investor in this project, I outlined, constructively (see below), my issues with the changes up to this point. I clearly stated that;
  • Art changed (see above), "chibi" style REALLY sold me, was disappointed to see that change AFTER the campaign ended.
  • Mike (creator) keeps going through artists like they're water...very concerning.
  • Game appears to be turning into a Final Fantasy 7 clone, which we have plenty of, definitely NOT why I backed this project.

About 2-3 days ago Mike posted on the Dev Diaries section (when it was still public) that after re-evaluating things, he was going to have to make some "MAJOR" changes and go down a "different path" and "reduce the scope" of the project...uh oh.

When I brought up my concerns (in an constructive but HONEST way) about all of these changes on the forum, Mike immediately attacked me and said I wasn't being respectful, that "threatening" to request a refund only hurts others who supported the project, that if I want "sunshine and roses" I should avoid the developer diaries...

Well, after seeing that this morning I immediately posted, requesting a refund. I was still trying to remain calm and collected in my posts and advised him that locking the dev diaries to "only respectful members" was essentially running and hiding what he was doing, AND terrible business sense.

Then I was banned.
Click to expand...

Needless-to-say, I'm no longer interested in this project.
 
J

JDSN

Banned
Like I said in the other thread, very unfortunate to see this, especially that story about the guy taking a trip to Japan to look for some artist to drawn his Dragon Quest copycats straight put of deviantart. It sucks because it takes legitimacy out of crowd funding while on its infancy, and I think theres a lot of places to go with alternative methods of financing.

You also shouldnt have trusted on a guy that looks like the blond skinny dude from Mega64. He Susan Wilson'd the fuck out his backers.
 
C

Cheddahz

Banned
I'm going to repost my posts from the thread
Wow, what an asshole (the creator, that is). The project has been going downhill ever since the game was funded and it's quite shady that he decided to make his developer's diary private. I backed the game and I was expecting something quite good, but I'm not getting my hopes up anymore about it....speaking of which, he was holding a contest to create a character and I still haven't heard anything back about it

This Kickstarter has really left a sour taste in my mouth and I'm going to be more wary about backing games from now
Click to expand...

The only other two Kickstarters I've backed are Cosmic Star Heroine (I've played the developer's other games and they were amazing and I know I can trust them) and La-Mulana 2 (same situation as CSH). The fact that Mike (the creator) decided to take a trip to Japan to find artists and then comes back to the States and announces that he is going with another direction and going with a new set of artists is alarming, as he basically just wasted money (that was probably from the Kickstarter) to take a "vacation" and find artists that he isn't even going to stick with it. It's obvious that Mike has poorly managed the money that was earned through the Kickstarter and backers are not going to get the same game they were promised when they did back it

It's just disgusting and I hope more people see this
Click to expand...

Altogether, what the developer is doing is disgusting
 
I

Instro

Member
That's too bad. I didn't back this but it seemed to be moving along a few months ago, looking at the more recent developments, and what you've posted it here, it sounds like its a mess. Such is the risk of crowd funding though, particularly when you fund people without some reputation behind them.
 
Andrefpvs

Andrefpvs

Member
I really liked Elise's (the blonde girl--EDIT: well, I guess not anymore) original design (pic below). Seeing all of the redesigns is quite disappointing.

2dfd234c1946e4503788b218b2c3335e_large.jpg
 
L

lord

Member
so what im seeing is that when you make a kickstarter you lose some of your creative freedom, maybe not as much as with a publisher but accountability is a bitch eh? :p
 
K

komplanen

Member
So you didn't like the direction the game's production was going and you threatened to withdraw your monies to which the creator responded by banning you? And now you asked for a refund. Gotcha.
 
P

PixyJunket

Member
This really needs a better thread title to make sure the problems are visible to blogs sniffing out headlines.

"Soul Saga (Kickstarter) receives drastic design changes, project downsizing, dev diaries locked, forum members banned, money wasted on Japan vacation, etc."

Something like that maybe? PM a mod to make it happen.
 
C

Cheddahz

Banned
lord said:
so what im seeing is that when you make a kickstarter you lose some of your creative freedom, maybe not as much as than with a publisher but accountability is a bitch eh? :p
Click to expand...

No

What you're seeing is a dude who promised a game, used the money that he received through the Kickstarter to go to Japan to hire artists (that he never hired), change the look of the game and hire new artists every so often, and now he is being really private about how the game is going to turn out

The dude has poorly managed the funded money and it's not a good sign

plexcide said:
So you didn't like the direction the game's production was going and you threatened to withdraw your monies to which the creator responded by banning you? And now you asked for a refund. Gotcha.
Click to expand...

You should probably read the OP and if you knew what has been going on since the Kickstarter ended, you would be pissed as well
 
Glass Rebel

Glass Rebel

Member
The creator should be allowed to make any changes he sees fit during development, whether it's changes in artstyle, gameplay or scope.

But it should be also allowed for backers to voice their concerns and, if presented in a respectful manner, to be heard and if they aren't happy with the product (for whatever reason) to request a refund.

The developer sounds like a douche who can't handle criticism. You aren't in the wrong, OP, and I'm sorry it turned out like this.
 
Z

zhorkat

Member
Funding a project on Kickstarter doesn't make you an investor. It's fine to be upset over changes made to a project, but, as a Kickstarter backer, you don't have any real power.
 
P

PixyJunket

Member
lord said:
so what im seeing is that when you make a kickstarter you lose some of your creative freedom, maybe not as much as with a publisher but accountability is a bitch eh? :p
Click to expand...
There are many people that probably gave money to this project because of the art style and scope outlined.

Changing those AFTER taking people's money is kind of scummy.

If he wanted creative freedom to wildly change things about the game, he shouldn't have taken money from people selling them a different idea.
 
E

Elessartelrunya

Member
plexcide said:
So you didn't like the direction the game's production was going and you threatened to withdraw your monies to which the creator responded by banning you? And now you asked for a refund. Gotcha.
Click to expand...

No, I said I *might* request a refund (which he had mentioned a few months back as being possible, so long as codes hadn't been sent out) IF this "new path" and "reduced scope" were disappointing.

It's one thing to completely change the character designs, it's another thing to change the gameplay. But reducing the scope and cutting things that were promised during the campaign...that's kind of where I draw the line :)
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Does this guy really have no resume to speak of? Nothing he can point to game-wise that he's worked on before? And he's a "one man team"? Why would you give him any money in the first place? You made a bad investment, OP, but it was just that, an investment.
 
D

Doombacon

Member
This seems pretty standard kickstarter fare to me. Personally when backing a project I find interesting I temper my expectations that there is at least 2/3 chance that the final product will no longer interest me.

I don't think this is a problem with kickstarter but rather the fact that investments are going out to unproven individuals.

If a kickstarter burns you the best option in my opinion is the keep people informed for the creators past when they try to launch future projects.
 
Risible

Risible

Member
I understand that people want to back the projects they love, but backing a video game project is madness IMO. So many fail even when publishers are involved cracking the whip - without that incentive I'm frankly amazed any get done at all.

I'm not saying it's due to crooked intentions, it's just that creating a video game can be a huge undertaking.
 
K

komplanen

Member
Elessartelrunya said:
No, I said I *might* request a refund (which he had mentioned a few months back as being possible, so long as codes hadn't been sent out) IF this "new path" and "reduced scope" were disappointing.

It's one thing to completely change the character designs, it's another thing to change the gameplay. But reducing the scope and cutting things that were promised during the campaign...that's kind of where I draw the line :)
Click to expand...

Fair enough. If he promised refunds then he should deal with the consequences of people actually taking that route.

On another part of the story it'd be interesting to find out some proof for the claims that he pays artists and ditches them "like going through water" and that he spent KS money on a vacation. Not that I don't trust you, because I do, it's just that right now this story is very one-sided.
 
E

Elessartelrunya

Member
PixyJunket said:
This really needs a better thread title to make sure the problems are visible to blogs sniffing out headlines.

"Soul Saga (Kickstarter) receives drastic design changes, project downsizing, dev diaries locked, forum members banned, money wasted on Japan vacation, etc."

Something like that maybe? PM a mod to make it happen.
Click to expand...

Excellent suggestion, though I'm not really sure who to PM. Also, as someone posted, I was IMMEDIATELY sold on the chibi art style and proposed (during the campaign) scope and gameplay. It's clear pretty much everything has changed at this point. I never once was rude, though perhaps a bit blunt, but I still feel he went over the top crazy with the locking of dev diaries and banning me.

I know not everyone will see me as the victim, and I'm not really asking for that. I simply want to make sure other people are aware of what can happen with Kickstarter, especially people who backed this particular project.
 
B

Biker19

Banned
PixyJunket said:
This really needs a better thread title to make sure the problems are visible to blogs sniffing out headlines.

"Soul Saga (Kickstarter) receives drastic design changes, project downsizing, dev diaries locked, forum members banned, money wasted on Japan vacation, etc."

Something like that maybe? PM a mod to make it happen.
Click to expand...

Glad that I didn't support the funding of the creator's game...the guy needs to be exposed.
 
J

Jobbs

Banned
I like the new art style.

I think you getting banned, if it went down exactly how you outlined and nothing was omitted, was an overreaction.

I think backers should be welcome to give their opinion and their feedback considered, but, at the same time, they are not guaranteed to like every design decision or necessarily are entitled to a refund if they don't like a design choice. You backed a person and a project, you didn't sign on as a designer. Backers can't be designing the game. Their feedback should be graciously accepted and listened to and they should be treated with respect, but at the same time, the designer must design the game according to his vision.
 
D

Doctor_Thomas

Member
On one hand, a video game is a fluid thing. Even the best laid plans can change very late in development and that's something that you'll find happens a lot. Kickstarter, while giving you the opportunity to, basically, pre-buy games and invest in projects is always going to be risky. There's no guarantee of return on your investment or even that the product will be good or what you are expected.

On the other hand, getting the public to fund your development means, even if you don't like it, you need to listen to criticism. It is up to you to convince people that the changes are worthwhile or explain the reasons behind them and, if people are annoyed, they have every right to be annoyed.

I have only funded two things on Kickstater and generally don't feel comfortable with doing it. I will buy an appealing finished product, I have a harder time investing in an appealing unfinished concept.
 
E

Elessartelrunya

Member
plexcide said:
Fair enough. If he promised refunds then he should deal with the consequences of people actually taking that route.

On another part of the story it'd be interesting to find out some proof for the claims that he pays artists and ditches them "like going through water" and that he spent KS money on a vacation. Not that I don't trust you, because I do, it's just that right now this story is very one-sided.
Click to expand...

Had he NOT deleted my posts and his replies, I would LOVE to screenshot and post them. I honestly felt that while I was blunt, I was bring truthful. It's up to him (Mike Gale) to post that, though to be honest, after him deleting my posts and locking down the dev diaries, I wouldn't put it past him to edit my posts or something stupid like that...

Here's hoping I get a refund and can move on.
 
K

komplanen

Member
Elessartelrunya said:
Had he NOT deleted my posts and his replies, I would LOVE to screenshot and post them. I honestly felt that while I was blunt, I was bring truthful. It's up to him (Mike Gale) to post that, though to be honest, after him deleting my posts and locking down the dev diaries, I wouldn't put it past him to edit my posts or something stupid like that...

Here's hoping I get a refund and can move on.
Click to expand...

Yeah I guess him turtling up ain't going to help anything getting out.
 
T

Tertullian

Member
zhorkat said:
Funding a project on Kickstarter doesn't make you an investor. It's fine to be upset over changes made to a project, but, as a Kickstarter backer, you don't have any real power.
Click to expand...

You're an investor when the people who took your money want to think of you as an investor (and not a pre-purchaser). You're a pre-purchaser when the people who took your money want to think of you as a pre-purchaser (and not an investor).
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
zhorkat said:
Funding a project on Kickstarter doesn't make you an investor. It's fine to be upset over changes made to a project, but, as a Kickstarter backer, you don't have any real power.
Click to expand...

That's the tricky thing about Kickstarter, you aren't an investor in the sense that, as you said, you can't dictate where the development of a product or game goes, but you should still look at projects and prospective games the way an investor would. Be skeptical. Don't just throw your money at every project that namedrops games you like or that has a few nice pictures or videos to show you.
 
T

Toki767

Member
Stuff like this is why I'm too afraid to ever really back a kickstarter. You just don't know what you're going to get.
 
E

EDarkness

Member
Quoting myself from the previous thread:

I don't know what's going on with his project, but I'm a little worried as well. I had some concerns about the art and such, and people are jumping in defending this situation. No idea what's going on over there, but I hope he knows what he's doing.

Also, I hope he isn't running out of money. If he is, then one would have to wonder about his management skills.
Click to expand...

Let's hope everything turns out alright....
 
F

Frodo

Member
Well, I was following this KS before it ended and IIRC, they mentioned the art-style could (or would, I'm not sure) change and that it was most definitely NOT final.

I'm genuinely interested in this game. Hope they manage to deliver a great game.
 
K

kuppy

Member
Ah, I remember that Kickstarter.
The redesign really seems odd, specially since it is all over the place.

But then again, Kickstarter has no guarantees, you basically fund an idea and the people behind it, but not a certain outcome.
 
C

Cheddahz

Banned
ujPPFso.png


Just thought I would post some proof about the diaries. It's not cool that you're going to approve the people that can check up on what is going on with the game's development. Every backer should have that right
 
A

AtomskEater

Member
Although I agree with the sentiment that getting a game that differs in some respects from what was initially shown is a "peril" of kickstarting projects that are not already well into development, how the dev responded to criticism is very telling. Happy I didn't pledge now. I'm hoping something nice can still come from this, since many people did pledge.
 
element

element

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
Does this guy really have no resume to speak of? Nothing he can point to game-wise that he's worked on before? And he's a "one man team"? Why would you give him any money in the first place? You made a bad investment, OP, but it was just that, an investment.
Click to expand...
His linkedin says he was a tester at Microsoft.
 
N

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Ninja Scooter said:
That's the tricky thing about Kickstarter, you aren't an investor in the sense that, as you said, you can't dictate where the development of a product or game goes, but you should still look at projects and prospective games the way an investor would. Be skeptical. Don't just throw your money at every project that namedrops games you like or that has a few nice pictures or videos to show you.
Click to expand...

I honestly think people really should think about Kickstarter the same way I look at loaning money to friends or co-workers.... it's a donation.

If they give something back, they give something back.

I think the problem is people think of Kickstarter as a pre-order.

I'd honestly have LESS of a problem with Kickstarter if you got rid of all the rewards.

This front loading your sales approach I think is honestly more problematic in the long-term than the old-school publisher funded development, and Early Access has a similar problem. You've made your money before launch, and then launch is to people who already bought the game, and you reduce your post-launch sales potential... so the motivation to finish and make the product great is going to vary depending on how focused the developer is.
 
G

Great Rumbler

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
That's the tricky thing about Kickstarter, you aren't an investor in the sense that, as you said, you can't dictate where the development of a product or game goes, but you should still look at projects and prospective games the way an investor would. Be skeptical. Don't just throw your money at every project that namedrops games you like or that has a few nice pictures or videos to show you.
Click to expand...

You should look at it the same way you lack at putting your money down on red on a roulette wheel. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Don't put down your money if you can't afford to lose it.
 
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