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Three devs weigh in on the good and bad of Nintendos eShops: "Flawed Paradise"
- Thread starter Orniletter
- Start date
I&F's appraisal is, uh, a little flowery. I'm assuming SteamWorld Dig didn't sell as well on Steam as it'd hoped.
Edit: To clarify, I'm sure the eShop has proven to be successful for I&F (there's really no denying as much), but the pot shots at Steam and mobile make it quite obvious there's an element of bad blood there. Hopefully the studio's next game enjoys a more broad appreciation.
Edit: To clarify, I'm sure the eShop has proven to be successful for I&F (there's really no denying as much), but the pot shots at Steam and mobile make it quite obvious there's an element of bad blood there. Hopefully the studio's next game enjoys a more broad appreciation.
nintendors
Member
that will Bode well for Nintendo in the long run..especially with their next handheld/console
Perhaps, but this is a common thing we keep seeing. Many developers are seeing titles sell better on 3DS and even Wii U than on iOS and Steam. Steam is really like the old west and has devalued the price of games considerably.
I think Humble Bundles made it even worse. I don't even consider buying indie titles as I assume they will appear in a HIB.
Common? The only examples that come to mind are Mutant Mudds and I think Toki Tori 2.
According to devs that have taken place in Humble Bundles they don't affect regular Steam sales. The sell the same amount they'd usually sell whilst the Humble Bundles were on sale, they get the sales from the bundle and they get increased exposure which elevates future sales.
Which developers? There have been a few but they seem to be the exception far more than the rule.
Well there's more than that. Gunman Clive too, for example. Perhaps "common" was the wrong word.
Yeah there's definitely more devs that have sold far more on Steam than on eShop or other console based alternatives
Not saying the game is bad, love it on my Vita.
Well, being a big fish in a small pond versus being a small fish in a ocean.
Yepp its not always fun.
With two, perhaps three, cited cases, most definitely.
There's no denying Steam isn't a guaranteed rocket to success, though, particularly when you're an indie developer and especially when your game arrives on the service later than others. "Indie" as a genre has become heavily saturated -- there's a visibility problem in the short term unless your game is relatively high-profile/popular (e.g. Goat Simulator).In these instances, I don't think it's really a matter of devaluing games so much as getting noticed in a much more competitive space. If a tiny indie developer has a fanbase unique to smaller platforms, moving into a much larger ecosystem would not immediately show an advantage. Getting noticed is the first problem, before even worrying about pricing or whatever. These larger ecosystem also have players who were there much earlier and have made a name for themselves there. So yeah, none of this is really that surprising.
It's pretty funny reading comments about how they hope other developers DON'T go on the platforms they have established themselves on though. It shows a sense of insecurity expressed as fear that if more players were in their space, they would lose out. Not sure if that reflects well on the developer's confidence level about their own quality.
It's pretty funny reading comments about how they hope other developers DON'T go on the platforms they have established themselves on though. It shows a sense of insecurity expressed as fear that if more players were in their space, they would lose out. Not sure if that reflects well on the developer's confidence level about their own quality.
Orniletter
Banned
It's pretty funny reading comments about how they hope other developers DON'T go on the platforms they have established themselves on though. It shows a sense of insecurity expressed as fear that if more players were in their space, they would lose out. Not sure if that reflects well on the developer's confidence level about their own quality.
I think Image and Form´s comment was directed at F2P games on iDroid devices more than ....say... "traditional" games.
I think a large chunk of smartphone users were trained to only download games when they are "free" and don´t even consider paying for them upfront (unless there is a name like Final Fantasy attached to it).
Edit: As in, they don´t want others to "poison the well" and make F2P the standard on the eShop .
I may have misinterpreted it though.
Same here. I don't even buy indie games for 80% off on Steam anymore since HumbleBundle exists. HB is just unbeatable in terms of value.
Call me a cynical *astard, but I've always been suspicious of indies sweetalk like "oh, it's al so won-der-ful, ya know?".
Oh, and TwoTribes suggestions are pretty spot-on :
I love the eShop, but they really gotta work on improving it (especially the 3DS one). I know Iwata said they'd now focus on the web version instead of the console, but it'd be nice if they launched it in the first place
Oh, and TwoTribes suggestions are pretty spot-on :
I love the eShop, but they really gotta work on improving it (especially the 3DS one). I know Iwata said they'd now focus on the web version instead of the console, but it'd be nice if they launched it in the first place
Thanks for passing this along, Orniletter, appreciated. I'm interested in how the indie movement has added this layer of transparency to the development and distribution of games, so I enjoy reading stuff like this. I've also really gravitated toward indie games, especially since the current gen started, so this was an encouraging read.
You could surely call it flowery, though I appreciated the language -- it's a strong and clear metaphor. If the developer is inspired to use flowery language, though, I see it more as a reflection of a real positive experience; I don't think there'd be any repercussions coming his way for talking out against the eShop. I probably notice it more because I follow Nintendo, but I read lots of positive stuff from indies on this front (from Shin'en, KnapKnok, WayForward, etc.).
Flowery or not, his metaphor is something to think about. I'd assume that some of that "El Dorado" vibe he mentions is tied to the currently modest size of the eShop, as far as its number of developers and users -- maybe I'm wrong, since the 3DS has a pretty big install base. If my assumption is right, maybe it's this modest size that helps ward off the "race to the bottom" mentality that's prevalent on other indie platforms (not that there isn't some shit on the eShop -- there is, but it's nothing compared to Steam or mobile app stores). I wouldn't call it insecure of developers to appreciate that difference. Instead, I'm interested to see how, or if, the major platform holders can maintain this sort of mentality on the home consoles, or if their digital storefronts will eventually devolve into the App Store. Obviously, I hope for the former. I know Nintendo prohibits ads in their eShop games, and I'm sure Sony and Microsoft have similar parameters in place, so I'm also interested in the "how," as far as developing console-based digital platforms without letting them devolve into a mobile-flavored cesspool.
JaseC said:
You could surely call it flowery, though I appreciated the language -- it's a strong and clear metaphor. If the developer is inspired to use flowery language, though, I see it more as a reflection of a real positive experience; I don't think there'd be any repercussions coming his way for talking out against the eShop. I probably notice it more because I follow Nintendo, but I read lots of positive stuff from indies on this front (from Shin'en, KnapKnok, WayForward, etc.).
Flowery or not, his metaphor is something to think about. I'd assume that some of that "El Dorado" vibe he mentions is tied to the currently modest size of the eShop, as far as its number of developers and users -- maybe I'm wrong, since the 3DS has a pretty big install base. If my assumption is right, maybe it's this modest size that helps ward off the "race to the bottom" mentality that's prevalent on other indie platforms (not that there isn't some shit on the eShop -- there is, but it's nothing compared to Steam or mobile app stores). I wouldn't call it insecure of developers to appreciate that difference. Instead, I'm interested to see how, or if, the major platform holders can maintain this sort of mentality on the home consoles, or if their digital storefronts will eventually devolve into the App Store. Obviously, I hope for the former. I know Nintendo prohibits ads in their eShop games, and I'm sure Sony and Microsoft have similar parameters in place, so I'm also interested in the "how," as far as developing console-based digital platforms without letting them devolve into a mobile-flavored cesspool.
Well even so the reality is that different business models exist, and there is an audience for all of them. If they're confident enough in what they do, their concern shouldn't be what other people do. Consumers are not some mindless mass, we can all think for ourselves, and we buy what we feel is worth the money. If they have a fanbase who buys their games and looks forward to what they make, as long as what they release doesn't suck, people are not going to stop buying it just because a bunch of crappier stuff is also on the store.
Honestly, the only advantage the lack of interest the eShop seems to have is that there is less competition for those who publish on it. For consumers it means less software and less choices, and in turn that means a more limited audience for publishers as well.
I think they're talking about the poorly made indie games that get allowed on certain other big stores because there is either no one checking quality or the system is flawed.
Well, yes, it goes without saying that a positive experience begets positivity.
Interesting points, for a while now I've thought of the eShop as having a lot of potential due to the way it's curated and promotes quality games, much in the same way steam didn't always have the biggest install base but you had a lot of success stories for quality games.
The whole flooded market place thing that covers mobile (and now Steam is heading that way) can be quite scary, despite the huge potential player base.
The whole flooded market place thing that covers mobile (and now Steam is heading that way) can be quite scary, despite the huge potential player base.
Sure, of course. I mention that because you seemed to downplay I&F's statements with the assumption that the game didn't sell well on Steam. That and the combination of "flowery" made you come off as dismissive of their positive statements toward the eShop -- so that's why I said that.
It is (and I partake in practically every one of them) but devs aren't suffering from partaking in them themselves. Interesting Humble Bundle post mortem on Gamasutra.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/AndySchatz/20140304/212267/Humble_Bundle_InstaPostMortem.php
Developer of Monaco made quite a bit of money being part of the bundle ($215k gross) and found their Steam sales basically weren't affected. Plus I'm sure they got a good deal of good word of mouth from those who bought the bundle and enjoyed the game.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
In these instances, I don't think it's really a matter of devaluing games so much as getting noticed in a much more competitive space. If a tiny indie developer has a fanbase unique to smaller platforms, moving into a much larger ecosystem would not immediately show an advantage. Getting noticed is the first problem, before even worrying about pricing or whatever. These larger ecosystem also have players who were there much earlier and have made a name for themselves there. So yeah, none of this is really that surprising.
It's pretty funny reading comments about how they hope other developers DON'T go on the platforms they have established themselves on though. It shows a sense of insecurity expressed as fear that if more players were in their space, they would lose out. Not sure if that reflects well on the developer's confidence level about their own quality.
Lets be realistic here, there are few games who cannot be substituted for other games and still yield a similar experience, from the consumer's point of view. By that I don't mean the substitute is necessarily a similar game, but that it fills a similar need for the player.
That being the case, when it comes to the longevity of a franchise, it's best to know your limits as a developer. If overextending yourself in order to port to multiple platforms comes with the risk of your game not living up to its full potential or not finding a stable enough audience to allow the franchise to grow, then it can make sense to remain exclusive to a small number of platforms.
Even big publishers made the mistake of not realising this last gen, and the consequences weren't pretty.
Look at THQ's de Blob and UDraw. Epic Mickey 2 is also possibly an example of this, and that recent thread about Activision wanting to team up with Nintendo for Skylanders is further proof that stability is something big companies value too.
I wasn't downplaying or being dismissive; just making an observation based on the language. Steam is explicitly mentioned as an example of where other developers fight to "race to the bottom" and it's not-so-subtly insinuated that Steam users aren't "real gamers who pay for quality". Clearly the company has seen success on the eShop but the colourful metaphors are undeniably laced with a degree of resentment -- this was my point, not "I&F is just salty lol".
Qtwentyseven
Neo Member
The eShop is like a little haven for indies. The games aren't necessarily hyped up & popping up in conversation all over the internet, but they have their success.
I'm pretty invested in the eShop. I always check out what's been added every Thursday.
It's refreshing to see Nintendo doing online shit right. Sales! On a Nintendo platform!
But yeah, they need to revamp the 3DS eShop's UI.
& regarding them not wanting the market to be flooded. That's mostly due to the competition. I can't really fault them for that.
I'm pretty invested in the eShop. I always check out what's been added every Thursday.
It's refreshing to see Nintendo doing online shit right. Sales! On a Nintendo platform!
But yeah, they need to revamp the 3DS eShop's UI.
& regarding them not wanting the market to be flooded. That's mostly due to the competition. I can't really fault them for that.
No arguments there, I don't even bother with it anymore unless I know theres something I want to buy on there.
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Title Search: Cavestory
'No results found'
Yeah I think that if the 3DS eShop actually had an interface which makes sense for anyone buying digital software in 2014, and if they had a web store you can log into using your browser, it would be so much easier to get more awareness for a lot of the really great digital titles on it. It would also make it easier to recommend to friends directly.
Got it, that's cleared up. For what it's worth, I agree that the "real gamers" thing is a bit much.
Unrelated, I see two healthy things happening on the eShop: one -- and this applies to all of the digital storefronts on consoles -- is the potential ability to abandon the "all-or-nothing" approach that Jim Sterling recently covered in "The Unholy Trinity of Blind Greedy Bastards" by pursuing sustainability over, as Jim puts it, "all the money." I recall a while back the developer of Unepic reported that his game was profitable after two weeks on the eShop. Hopefully, we hear more stories like this.
In regards to these three developers' reports on Nintendo's attitude toward indies, I think it foreshadows the company's continued move away from third parties -- I think Nintendo knows that, especially in the west, that boat has sailed. In the future, I see them focusing more on sustaining a unified platform with first party output, exclusives and indies. Whether or not that's good boils down to your taste as a gamer, but I am okay with it.
EDIT:
duckroll said:
Yep, slow as balls and really clunky on the 3DS. Real pleasant on the Wii U, though. I think, kind of related to my last thing up there, Nintendo's moving into the direction you're talking about with a unified OS across platforms, according to Iwata's statements at the recent investor meeting. Looking forward to that.
Unfortunately, though, it's not sustainable for Nintendo. A loss-leading approach isn't viable when software sales are virtually non-existent on a larger scale and this creates a quandary -- it's blindingly obvious that the system isn't going to sell well until it hits a point where people are happy to buy it just to play "Nintendo games", but a price cut means a bigger financial hit and the transition to HD game development catching Nintendo off-guard means that, at this juncture, there's simply not enough broadly-enticing exclusives to turn the red into black.
To be fair how many examples in total can you think of that are both on Steam and 3DS and how many have seen a sales breakdown for? I guess there's also vvvvvv and now retro city rampage; the latter at least did better than on XBLA.
My guess is that you're unlikely to get a super mega hit that goes viral and sells millions on the eShop, but easier to get good sales and make profit from a smallish title than on Steam.
Surprised by Image&Forms experience with the Japanese eShop though. that market has been excellent for me and I've certainly haven't seen any evidence that Japanese players don't like western games. Shame I can't publish myself over there though
7DollarHagane
Banned
The mobile bit makes sense but there is also a lot of early access stuff on steam that's questionable. I could see being upset that your fully finished, fully featured and highly praised title gets buried by games that are 25% finished and sometimes barely functional.
Sorry, wasn't speaking of the Wii U -- should've been clearer there. I'm speaking toward the company's plans for its next unified-OS platform/s that Iwata mentioned at the investor meeting earlier this year. I think their current treatment of indies, contrasted with what seems to be their current disregard for western third parties, could foreshadow a further move from third parties in the future, and an intentional one (which would go in the face of the conventional refrain that Nintendo needs to strengthen third-party relations). How they plan to make that profitable, I'm not sure, but I imagine their next platform/s will have a lower entry price and more regular iterations than the standard console as we know it.
Call me a cynical *astard, but I've always been suspicious of indies sweetalk like "oh, it's al so won-der-ful, ya know?".
Oh, and TwoTribes suggestions are pretty spot-on :
I love the eShop, but they really gotta work on improving it (especially the 3DS one). I know Iwata said they'd now focus on the web version instead of the console, but it'd be nice if they launched it in the first place
Tell me you mean as with PSN/xbl where I can just purchase on the web and its downloaded/downloading/download list?
Sylverstone14
Member
LoveCake
Member
Not without more games & support it won't, also as ok as the eShop is on 3DS & WiiU how many people will buy the next incarnation of Nintendo consoles, i know i will never buy a Nintendo console at launch again.
The issue i have with the eShop is that it's hard to find anything as it's not set out very well & also the prices are much more than retail & i know this is not really a fault with the eShop as such but as games are not yet tied to a account it's dangerous buying eShop (digital Nintendo games) also there is way too much emphasis on the Virtual Console, having to buy the same game on multiple consoles -_-
RubberJohnny
Banned
Nothing implied it was a direct quote.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I just wish they'd give the platform a proper account system already. I love how the eshop always gives a good spotlight for its indie releases, but there needs to be a better safety net for the consumers that use it.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
I'd be willing to buy more indie games via Wii U, but most of the notable ones are coming out on Steam anyway, and they're often included in Humble Bundles. If anyone's willing to point in the direction of a high-quality exclusive, I'd love to check it out.
I parsed that as "We don't do much marketing, and we wouldn't want to compete with guys that do".It's pretty funny reading comments about how they hope other developers DON'T go on the platforms they have established themselves on though. It shows a sense of insecurity expressed as fear that if more players were in their space, they would lose out. Not sure if that reflects well on the developer's confidence level about their own quality.
I don't know what the setup is on eShop specifically, but I'm under the impression that most storefronts of this sort have "featured" spots basically up for sale. E.g. on the PSN store you basically have to navigate through two or three "featured" sections before even getting to the unfiltered list of new releases. I'm not even sure if average user rating has any influence on listing visibility, in any section.
Yeah, it was a really poor choice of words. They post on GAF, hopefully they show up and apologize.
