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[MaxHouse]

He's really prolific. Consensus seems to be that Franz Bardon's is the best most self-contained training system that is publicly available, but that Crowley also contributed a lot.

Isn't Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy still the most influential text in western occultism?

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

I'm not familiar with his work, I'm mostly familiar with Neo-Platonic stuff, Taoism, Vajrayana Buddhism, and Bardon's Hermetics.

The way I understand most 'occult' systems is they're essentially ways of hacking your mind through forming very elaborate experiential and conceptual associations. If you look at the Five Dhyani Buddhas in Tibetan Buddhism it's basically a conceptual framework for relating colours, tastes, emotions, mental qualities/virtues, cardinal directions, textures, etc, etc, all within a common five part associative scheme. Then you make these associations so extensively that you basically knit all of your experiences together, across all the different registers of experience, until you can make really fine adjustments to your experience, or see that it's all fundamentally the same.

And the interesting thing is that it's arbitrary, the classic elements work because there aren't too many of them or too few of them, so they're sufficiently simple and complex; and each element (water, fire, etc) has a distinct quality that makes the categories pretty strongly defined. It's not that the world is really made of fire and water and all that, but if we relate water to fluidity, or fire to heat, or whatever, then we can make these categories really permeable and descriptive. And then once you do you can use these associations as points of leverage.

Thanks, your posts always elucidate facets of Buddhism for me.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

Isn't Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy still the most influential text in western occultism?

Yup.

 

[MaxHouse]

Yup.

so Agrippa, and then Bardon, and then probably Crowley are the 3 most influential western occultists

maybe Eliphas Levi should be in there as well...

but I don't know much about Bardon to be honest

 

[nailbombxx]

Mythology and folktales are very fascinating to me. I often think of them as the purest form of story-telling. Greek mythology is my favorite, and one of my favorite myths concern Orpheus, a poet whose music was so magnificent that it could move all things, and the death of his wife Eurydice.

While walking among her people, the Cicones, in tall grass at her wedding, Eurydice was set upon by a satyr. In her efforts to escape the satyr, Eurydice fell into a nest of vipers and suffered a fatal bite on her heel. Her body was discovered by Orpheus who, overcome with grief, played such sad and mournful songs that all the nymphs and gods wept. On their advice, Orpheus travelled to the underworld. His music softened the hearts of Hades and Persephone, who agreed to allow Eurydice to return with him to earth on one condition: he should walk in front of her and not look back until they both had reached the upper world. He set off with Eurydice following, and, in his anxiety, as soon as he reached the upper world, he turned to look at her, forgetting that both needed to be in the upper world, and she vanished for the second time, but now forever.

Very condensed of course, but its a beautiful myth. There are many classical Greek myths that I just adore.

I've been reading a ton of Howard, Dunsany, Chambers, Machen, and the like.

Check out Clark Ashton Smith as he was one of the big 3 weird fiction pulp writers of the day with Lovecraft and Howard.

It seems that we have very similar tastes in literature. We need to start a weird fiction thread for sure.

 

[MaxHouse]

one of my main issues with western occultism right now..


Is probably an over reliance on the Kabbalah....The Kabbalah is an highly important source for modern day practicioners...but theres more to occultism than just the kabbalah

 

[mf.luder]

There is a podcast called Lore. I started listening to it but then fell off and got too busy. It discussed stuff just like this.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I do love me some folklore, both for its possible connections to culture past and present, but also just how esoteric it can get, both within and without mainstream, monolithic belief systems.

Take for example, the entire concept of Krampus. While a lot of modern (especially American) Christmas culture paints him as some sort of anti-Santa, digging deeper paints an interesting picture on the ideas of punishment and reward within a central European society. I mean, several variants claimed that Krampus kidnapped naughty Christian children and dumped them in Muslim ruled Spain, instead of just handing them a lump of coal. Its wildly outside what you would nominally expect of Christian lore, yet it is an enduring part of Alpine culture.

 

[Liljagare]

And for people who don't know what a troll forest is:

It is one of those forests you walk into, and just dont feel welcome in. We have them all over, and it is always fun to take a non-believer in for a few hours..

As a swede and a believer in the folktales, I love the stories about trolls, alver (elfs), tomtar (gnomes), småknytt (goblins, dark elves and their kind) and hustomtar (house gnomes, keep your home safe if you treat them right, they fuck you over if you don't though). Atleast they are local stories and have nothing to do with religion, which I think is why I love them so much.

It's a faery tale.

 

[MaxHouse]

And for people who don't know what a troll forest is:

It is one of those forests you walk into, and just dont feel welcome in. We have them all over, and it is always fun to take a non-believer in for a few hours..

what country is this?

 

[teruterubozu]

Yeah that's what I heard too. What was the con about? That Don Juan never existed?

Certainly the existence of Don Juan was always suspicious, but apparently he was also a notorious womanizer and used his cult status to his advantage.

 

[HStallion]

It seems that we have very similar tastes in literature. We need to start a weird fiction thread for sure.

There was a Lovecraft OT for a while but its kind of dead and there is also a comics focused OT about weird fiction. I'd be down though either way.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

Thanks, your posts always elucidate facets of Buddhism for me.

You're welcome. Vajrayana is kind of an oddball in that it draws a lot from Hindu and Tibetan mysticism, but approaches it as a Buddhist praxis. It's not really something that you can find in any other schools of Buddhism. I'm usually more inclined to Theravada, which is arguably the most analytical/psychological school of Buddhism, but I still find Vajrayana really interesting.

so Agrippa, and then Bardon, and then probably Crowley are the 3 most influential western occultists

maybe Eliphas Levi should be in there as well...

but I don't know much about Bardon to be honest

To be honest I'm not sure how influential Bardon is exactly, it's more that his occult training system, as a single unified body of work, is arguably the most thorough and extensive of any of the stuff that's publicly available. It's like a really well thought out system of occult circuit training or something.

 

[HStallion]

You're welcome. Vajrayana is kind of an oddball in that it draws a lot from Hindu and Tibetan mysticism, but approaches it as a Buddhist praxis. It's not really something that you can find in any other schools of Buddhism. I'm usually more inclined to Theravada, which is arguably the most analytical/psychological school of Buddhism, but I still find Vajrayana really interesting.

I don't know as much about the other branches of Buddhism but I've been an on again, off again practitioner of Zen/Chen Buddhism. Its fairly simplistic in a lot of ways but also incredibly complex in an almost conflicting manner then again... I guess that's the point in some ways hah

 

[Trojita]

Most definitely this thread. It has to be sarcastic, right? Interest was shown and then *poof*

It happens to the best of us.

Anyway, it's a good idea. I'm into it.

Or maybe it's because I responded to the bump so soon.

Right?

Right?

 

[MaxHouse]

I don't know what it is but i just find Germanic mythology much more interesting than Greek/Roman mythology

 

[Trojita]

To expound on the idea of sacred objects falling from the sky like in my OP.

There is the story of Mar's, Roman God of War's, shield falling from the sky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancile

In ancient Rome, the Ancilia were twelve sacred shields kept in the Temple of Mars. According to legend, one divine shield fell from heaven during the reign of Numa Pompilius, the second king of Rome. He ordered eleven copies made to confuse would-be thieves, since the original shield was regarded as one of the pignora imperii, sacred guarantors that perpetuated Rome as a sovereign entity.

The ancilia were in the keeping of the Salii, a body of twelve priests instituted for that purpose by Numa Pompilius. The Salii wielded them ritually in a procession throughout March.

Weirdly, the divine shield itself doesn't have a Wikipedia link or a special name. The Ancilia is just all 12, the 11 fakes and the 1 rule sacred object together.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Scandinavian folklore, Trolls.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_folklore




And if you've not seen it I would highly recommend the movie Trollhunter from 2010.

Fantastic film.

 

[massoluk]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006YGH6N8/?tag=neogaf0e-20
When They Severed Earth from Sky: How the Human Mind Shapes Myth

This book is the shit. It tells how the Great Flood myth came to be. Why Odin's horse has 8 legs, etc.

Why were Prometheus and Loki envisioned as chained to rocks? What was the Golden Calf? Why are mirrors believed to carry bad luck? How could anyone think that mortals like Perseus, Beowulf, and St. George actually fought dragons, since dragons don't exist? Strange though they sound, however, these "myths" did not begin as fiction.

This absorbing book shows that myths originally transmitted real information about real events and observations, preserving the information sometimes for millennia within nonliterate societies. Geologists' interpretations of how a volcanic cataclysm long ago created Oregon's Crater Lake, for example, is echoed point for point in the local myth of its origin. The Klamath tribe saw it happen and passed down the story--for nearly 8,000 years.

 

[BLOODED_hands]

I'm not too knowledgeable in my culture but I can look up some stuff about Hmong myths, folklore, etc. Be back when I finish my research!

 

[HStallion]

This is semi related but I always loved the idea of where our combined mythologies originated from and what inspired them. Of course things like the Sun, Stars and Moon are big ones, as is the Earth itself but the smaller things are where it really gets cool. For example the idea that dragons were at least in part inspired by our ignorant ancestors stumbling across uncovered dinosaur fossils.

Relating to that is the idea that wholly mammoth and other megafauna skeletons unearthed by the Greeks were thought to be the remains of their ancient heros and demi gods who were often depicted as being giants at like ten feet tall and larger than life compared to mortal men. The idea being that they reconstructed the skeletons in a style more reminiscent to bipedal apes than the four legged creatures that they were. Mammoths especially because with only bones their huge nasal cavity opening on the front of their skull looked an awful lot like a single giant eye socket. Thus the cyclops. There are even stories and such of the skeletons being given hero's burials in giant coffins.

Edit: Also giant squids washing up on shore = Kraken/sea monster

 

[Mascot]

I lived in South Africa as a kid and would love to hear some Tokoloshe stories. That was serious stuff at the time.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I lived in South Africa as a kid and would love to hear some Tokoloshe stories. That was serious stuff at the time.

Aren't those like, invisible imps that were blamed for causing problems in churches and the like?

 

[RazorbackDB]

Chiloe is an Island full of folklore and legends, but the english wikipedia page on it seems surprinsingly poor actually, I kinda want to fill some pages now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilote_mythology

 

[Liljagare]

what country is this?

Sweden.

 

[BLOODED_hands]

So I found a good site that goes in-depth into my culture's myths and folklore!

http://www.hmongstudiesjournal.org/hmong-folktales-and-folklore.html

I began reading the one by K.L. Yang. It seems that my culture borrows alot of myths and folklore from the other cultures they were around with at the times. In general, ghosts, bigfoot are the two biggest folklores Hmong people talked about.

Our bigfoot compared to other bigfoots is actually a shapeshifter and a trickster. Can always change it's shape at will and lures Hmong people into deeper parts of a forest.

Here's something that is somewhat unique to Hmong people that actually garnered mainstream attention too long ago, the Shadow People:

http://greenstonearts.net/sudden-unexpected-nocturnal-death-syndrome-sunds-the-bangungot-the-hmong-and-the-cdc/

I've heard stories and have actually seen shadow people before when I was younger. We believed that when you have sleep paralysis, it was the result of the shadow people trying to take your soul away. It was actually believed that Hmong people and some SE Asians brought it along with them after the Vietnam War.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I don't know as much about the other branches of Buddhism but I've been an on again, off again practitioner of Zen/Chen Buddhism. Its fairly simplistic in a lot of ways but also incredibly complex in an almost conflicting manner then again... I guess that's the point in some ways hah

I don't know a lot about Zen or Chan Buddhism, but those are some of the things that I really appreciate about it (it's simple, but it's not simple). I tend to gravitate towards the stuff without a skillful means doctrine, because I'm self-taught and the absence of skillful means makes it less ambiguous to me. But Zen, for technically falling into the skillful means category, is very much something you can come and see for yourself. The ambiguity that is there seems to be intentionally there for the purpose of individual learning, like a tool in your arsenal instead of a potential obstacle. It seems like a really interesting and unique approach.

 

[Trojita]

I lived in South Africa as a kid and would love to hear some Tokoloshe stories. That was serious stuff at the time.

Aren't those like, invisible imps that were blamed for causing problems in churches and the like?

Yeah

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Fantastic film.

indeed

 

[HStallion]

I don't know a lot about Zen or Chan Buddhism, but those are some of the things that I really appreciate about it (it's simple, but it's not simple). I tend to gravitate towards the stuff without a skillful means doctrine, because I'm self-taught and the absence of skillful means makes it less ambiguous to me. But Zen, for technically falling into the skillful means category, is very much something you can come and see for yourself. The ambiguity that is there seems to be intentionally there for the purpose of individual learning, like a tool in your arsenal instead of a potential obstacle. It seems like a really interesting and unique approach.

The monastery and monks I used to visit and meditate with often emphasized that it was a personal matter at most, that you had to find the answers. They would give you the tools but you had to learn to use them and a lot of that often involves unlearning a lot of bad habits, beliefs, ideas, desires, and so on. Its not easy to be look inward like that. Not too mention the whole act of meditating is not easy, let alone being able to clear your mind completely but still be observant and aware, unburdened by the common and fleeting thoughts and emotions. Its honestly hard to talk about it because it sounds like gibberish especially to those totally unfamiliar with Zen or meditation in general hah

 

[Zombine]

Has anyone survived a drop bear attack?

 

[HStallion]

Has anyone survived a drop bear attack?

What a foolish ignorant question. Of course not, there are never any survivors.

 

[kess]

Relating to the OP, there are a fair number of people with Pennsylvania German ancestry who claim some Native ancestry, so the usage of the term "pow-wow" may be more than mere linguistic borrowing.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Cool I'm down with this thread. Always loved this kind of stuff.

 

[Mascot]

Aren't those like, invisible imps that were blamed for causing problems in churches and the like?

From Wikipedia:

In Zulu mythology, Tikoloshe, Tokoloshe or Hili is a dwarf-like water sprite. It is considered a mischievous and evil spirit that can become invisible by drinking water. Tokoloshes are called upon by malevolent people to cause trouble for others. At its least harmful a tokoloshe can be used to scare children, but its power extends to causing illness or even the death of the victim. The creature might be banished by a n’anga (witch doctor), who has the power to expel it from the area.

Another explanation is that the Tokoloshe resembles a zombie, poltergeist, or gremlin, created by South African shamans who have been offended by someone. The tokoloshe may also wander, causing mischief wherever it goes, particularly to schoolchildren. Other details include its gremlin-like appearance and gouged out eyes.
The Tokoloshe, according to the Zulu shaman Credo Mutwa, has been known to take on many forms. One form is as described above, but others have portrayed the Tokoloshe as being a bear-like humanoid being.
"Some Zulu people (and other southern African tribes) are still superstitious when it comes to things like the supposedly fictional tokoloshe—a hairy creature created by a wizard to harm his enemies (also … known to rape women and bite off sleeping people’s toes)."
According to legend, the only way to keep the Tokoloshe away at night is to put a brick beneath each leg of one's bed. However, this will not protect anything but the person whose bed it is along with the bed itself, as it may instead cause havoc not involving said people. They get their power from a hot poker thrust into the crown of the body during creation.

Belief in this creatures was widespread while we were there. We knew a LOT of people who slept with their beds raised on bricks, and who put salt around doors and windows to keep them out. Sightings were very common.

Edit: I never heard anything like THIS though:

 

[Chiggs]

We had a urban myth in my old home town, Fairfax VA, about "the Bunnyman". A local library historian-archivist did some research to find the origin of the story:

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/library/branches/vr/bunny/

Christ almighty...that's a little unsettling.

 

[Trojita]

So a lot of people interested in religion, mythology, and folklore or simply read some entries in Shin Megami Tensei might be aware that extra literary works about the biblical King Solomon that aren't part of the Old Testament attest that he could control demons to do his bidding. Many people are probably familiar with the Ars Goetia that Aleister Crowley put in his Lesser Keys of Solomon Book. The Ars Goetia are 72 demons in a hierarchy that Solomon is said to have evoked and confined in a bronze vessel sealed by magic symbols, and that he obliged to work for him

The original story is a little different and more interesting (at least to me).

The Testament of Solomon is a Old Testament pseudepigraphical work ascribed to King Solomon. It was written in the Greek language, some time in the early 1st millenium CE. It describes how Solomon was enabled to build his temple by commanding demons by means of a magical ring that was entrusted to him by the archangel Michael.

When a demon named Ornias harasses a young lad (who is favored by Solomon) by stealing half of his pay and sucking out his vitality through the thumb on his right hand, Solomon prays in the temple and receives from the archangel Michael a ring with the seal of God (in the shape of a Pentalpha) on it which will enable him to command the demons. Solomon lends the ring to the lad who, by throwing the ring at the demon Ornias, stamps him with the seal and brings him under control.

Yes, they threw the ring like a Poké Ball.

Then Solomon orders the demon Ornias to take the ring and similarly imprint the prince of demons, Beelzebul.

Okay that is so cheap and underhanded but I like it.

With Beelzebul under his command, Solomon now has all of the demons at his bidding to build the temple. Beelzebul reveals that he was formerly the highest ranking angel in Heaven.

What a shortcut he took control of all demonds in two steps.

In chapter 18, the demons of the 36 decans appear, with names that sometimes seem to be conscious distortions of the traditional names for the decans. The decan demons claim responsibility mostly for various ailments and pains, and they provide the magical formulae by which they may be banished. For example, the thirty-third demon is Rhyx Achoneoth who causes sore throat and tonsilitis and can be driven off by writing the word Leikourgos on ivy leaves and heaping them into a pile.

Maybe you should have gotten rid of that demon?

Solomon's final demon encounter involves sending a servant boy with his ring to take captive a wind demon who is harassing the land of Arabia. The boy is to hold a wineskin against the wind with the ring in front of it, and then tie up the bag when it is full. The boy succeeds in his task and returns with the wineskin. The imprisoned demon calls himself Ephippas, and it is by his power that a cornerstone, thought to be too large to lift, is raised into the entrance of the temple.

This sounds like a video game. And why is King Solomon just giving this ring out to whoever?

Then Ephippas and another demon from the Red Sea bring a miraculous column made of something purple (translation obscure) from out of the Red Sea. This Red Sea demon reveals himself as Abizithibod, and claims to be the demon who supported the Egyptian magicians against Moses, and who hardened the pharaoh's heart, but had been caught with the Egyptian host when the sea returned and held down by this pillar until Ephippas came and together they could lift it.

What purpose does this part even achieve. I guess at the very least they are getting around the contradiction with God hardening Pharaoh's heart.

There follows a short conclusion in which Solomon describes how he fell in love with a Shunammite woman, and agreed to worship Remphan and Moloch in exchange for sex. Solomon agrees to sacrifice to them, but at first only sacrifices five locusts by simply crushing them in his hand. Immediately, the spirit of God departs from him, and he is made foolish and his name becomes a joke to both humans and demons. Solomon concludes his text with a warning to the readers; he tells them to not abandon their beliefs for sex like he did.

2000 years later from when this is written and 3000 years from when King Solomon was attributed to have ruled, and we still have the end of the story end with a lesson of "Don't think with your dick".

 

[-sdp]

It's definitely something that interests me.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Crowley is by and large treated as a joke in SMT, especially 2.

He's ridiculed as a quack occultist who only cares about indulging his lusts, not the pursuit of any real knowledge.

 

[Dreavus]

Solomon, dude, why??

"Uhh sure I'll worship you guys, one sec" *squish*