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[Maintenance]

That reminds me Stellar is coming here this year, might go if I can find a ticket.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Being a (former) fan, the entire industry as a whole, especially in regards to girl groups, is disgusting. The blatant sexism, sexualization, misogyny, turned me off right away. And it certainly doesn't help that in a lot of ways, any type of change for the betterment of girl groups is immediately shot down by male fans in a sort of Gamergate type fervor, especially in places like /r/kpop.

The entire Hallyu wave itself is propped up on stilts, and it's only a matter of time before something massive enough shakes the entire foundation for it to crumble onto the ground. It simply cannot sustain itself any longer with how much companies like YG and SM hide their deplorable aspects.

 

[Red Liquorice]

I like those Milky pants in the first image, I would totally wear those.

 

[stump sock]

I only like neo-Schillerian metaphysical pop tbh

 

[Silver Arrows]

It should be noted that we have had two members of a girl group killed via negligence in regards to seatbelts, another girl group member essentially kicked out for doing what she wanted to do (which was fashion) alongside well documented accounts of xenophobia and racism in regards to bi-racial and Chinese idols, and the industry is still trucking.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Boy though, that last video. Jeeeesus. The thing that creeps me out about kpop is that they do still try to cover the pornographic elements with "semiotics" (as the author puts it). Just like... own that shit. I understand now that it is the way it is because of Korean culture, but it just makes it more uncomfortable.

KPop is hardly unique here, I think we had a thread recently here about a youtube video that breaks down the ultra-creepy trajectory of Shirley Temple, and Britney literally built her career on being the zenith of barely-legal white blonde schoolgirl sexuality, that was threatened by rumors that she'd *gasp* actually had sex or something *monocle* and that maybe she wasn't a perfect mother to her young son *sewing of red letters intensifies*

The article is okay I guess? It does take a very long time to reach a fairly self-explanatory conclusion, but at least I feel somewhat enlightened about the conservative framework of Korean capitalist society wrt gender roles and class structure. Still, he does stupidly close his argument with 'well just LOOK at it isn't it obvious?' of a video that strangely does not marry the symbol of the chaste girl with suggestive photographic angles and tricks--the very bedrock of his argument--instead of providing a detailed teardown of the actual K-Pop content he's been talking about. I mean, that video is very obviously meant to titillate, and guarded as I am by my inability to understand the lyrics there's zero subtlety about the visual meaning of the content. He otherwise spent way too much time cherry picking one (okay, two) photographer's style as vanguards of K-Pop's exploitation of various sexual fetishes. That's not really good enough. The column is like the first third of an actual paper instead of being a cohesive defense of a thesis.

B-

 

[Barrage]

Don't know if I can finish the article. The author's a pompous cornball.

 

[Human Trashcan]

Good luck in 2020.

I have no idea what this means

Also, as an aside, is skin bleaching something every k-pop idol does or am I being racist? Because it sure seems like they all do it.

 

[Silver Arrows]

I have no idea what this means

Also, as an aside, is skin bleaching something every k-pop idol does or am I being racist? Because it sure seems like they all do it.

Sometimes. Idols known for their darkened skin include Min Hyorin, and a few others. But Hyorin is the only one I can remember.

 

[sohois]

I want to tell this guy to have more faith in his writing and audience, and not spend 5 paragraphs telling people to keep reading.

But on the other hand he's kind of a shitty writer so maybe he needs to do that?

 

[Megalosaro]

I'm not big on K Pop. I just want to point out that IU is utterly perfect.

 

[SiteSeer]

I have no idea what this means

Also, as an aside, is skin bleaching something every k-pop idol does or am I being racist? Because it sure seems like they all do it.

when you have to ask ... 😏

 

[Ordinaryundone]

This kind of reads like a Neil Stephenson/Hideo Kojima-esque lecture of someone who just read a book on Confucianism and now has Observations to share.

Like seriously, that's a hell of a lot of words for the self-explanatory thesis of "Sexualization of young women is kinda creepy, KPop does a lot of it".

 

[Not Spaceghost]

That was probably the most poorly organized and frustrating read I have done in a while, but he is right K Pop does employ the same visual language as porn. I guess neo confucianism is basically the korean way of saying "conservative" which made for a fairly interesting read about this historic significance of gender roles in korea.

But what annoyed me was that he didn't even attempt to break down the situation around kpop outside of a few captions and music videos. He didn't even mention that because porn is basically banned in south korea kpop idols are basically a proxy.

Though I guess I can see why he left that out, because it's a very easy conclusion to reach and makes plenty of sense so this guy can't feel as smart writing about it.

 

[Silver Arrows]

This kind of reads like a Neil Stephenson/Hideo Kojima-esque lecture of someone who just read a book on Confucianism and now has Observations to share.

Like seriously, that's a hell of a lot of words for the self-explanatory thesis of "Sexualization of young women is kinda creepy, KPop does a lot of it".

Agreed, and as self-wanking as the article is, there still needs to be so much more chat about sexualization in regards to Korean pop. It's terrible, staring you right in the face, yet nobody, certainly the male fans of girl groups, wants to talk about it.

Don't get me wrong, there's all sorts of sexualization in the genre, even with the male groups (Where as the male groups have the problem of fangirls trying to normalize same-sex actions, when in reality, said fangirls are probably homophobic as fuck and probably don't care for the plight of LGBTQ communities) but the shit girl groups have to go through is very much worse, and yet nobody wants to do a thing about it.

 

[V_Arnold]

That was probably the most poorly organized and frustrating read I have done in a while, but he is right K Pop does employ the same visual language as porn. I guess neo confucianism is basically the korean way of saying "conservative" which made for a fairly interesting read about this historic significance of gender roles in korea.

But what annoyed me was that he didn't even attempt to break down the situation around kpop outside of a few captions and music videos. He didn't even mention that because porn is basically banned in south korea kpop idols are basically a proxy.

Though I guess I can see why he left that out, because it's a very easy conclusion to reach and makes plenty of sense so this guy can't feel as smart writing about it.

Actually, there is a HUGE difference between kpop being a proxy for porn and between kpop being a way to enforce already existing social norms about how you are not in control of your body, are just basically a proxy for carrying a child or providing pleasure to your husband.

Also, personally, I like how half of this thread's posts are putting the writer down ("I could have written it more compact, etc"), and yet, those remarks do not add much to the discussion other than "I could have done this better", which can be literally said about ANYTHING. The article itself was quite eye-opening to me, to be honest.

 

[Boney]

Confucianism as the cultural ideology that accentuates the cultural industry of pop stars is interesting, as it is able to ameliorate the contradiction between sexuality and purity. It continually sends contradicting messages to their consumer base, being both a titilation product while also targeting women by defining style and fashion.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

It's not that useless to point out that the article is badly written and the argument left incomplete. He does establish a definition of 'Neo-Confucian Pornography' but then does a pretty poor job of defining 'K-pop' (is it these photographs? Is it the songs written? Is it the only the women? Is it only the music videos?) and how it breaks down in its messaging as raw titillation for straight men and signalling for young women in a repressive philosophical regime that wishes to profit off their fetishes regardless.

 

[Silver Arrows]

There's no doubt about it, the Hallyu wave as a whole in it's current form has been a massive boon for Korea as a whole. It is able to get it's neatly packaged stars to practically every region in East Asia, and now it's setting it's sights on more lucrative targets.

 

[teruterubozu]

Doesn't Korea have regular porn? It's not like K-Pop is the only option under Neo-Confucian society.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Doesn't Korea have regular porn? It's not like K-Pop is the only option under Neo-Confucian society.

Yes, but it isn't as bare and open (heh) as in the West. You gotta hunt for it.

 

[messiaen]

It's not that useless to point out that the article is badly written and the argument left incomplete. He does establish a definition of 'Neo-Confucian Pornography' but then does a pretty poor job of defining 'K-pop' (is it these photographs? Is it the songs written? Is it the only the women? Is it only the music videos?) and how it breaks down in its messaging as raw titillation for straight men and signalling for young women in a repressive philosophical regime that wishes to profit off their fetishes regardless.

I agree. It also should've been at least half the length it ended up being. But it's the first I've read an article that actually examines this phenomenon. I've talk about this at length with friends before and find it to be an interesting topic. Even if those familiar already see it as obvious, hopefully it at least was some food for thought for those who may not be.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

EXID is a more feminist pop act than anyone in the West bar Beyoncé, maybe.

 

[Silver Arrows]

I agree. It also should've been at least half the length it ended up being. But it's the first I've read an article that actually examines this phenomenon. I've talk about this at length with friends before and find it to be an interesting topic. Even if those familiar already see it as obvious, hopefully it at least was some food for thought for those who may not be.

Again, it's going to fall on deaf ears, especially in regards to the (majority) male fans of girl groups who want to keep the status quo. It's very much a classic Gamergate tactic into silencing those who try to stand up and think differently, in order to keep their pretty, pure Korean girls from being infected by those damn Western SJW's.

 

[cryptosporidium]

I didn’t design this essay to be too hard for anyone but academics to get, but didn’t aim so low that it has to be shoehorned into a form that is conducive to a “one-read, one kill”, digestible in a single subway ride form. I hope that this essay can educate (in an academic way), provoke critical thought, as well as (intellectually) entertain. So this might require a bit more effort than many readers are used to in this age of Facebooking, tittering-through-Twitter, and Insta-gratification. I admit that it’s longer than I wanted to be, but it’s designed to cover certain points as a reading for my university lectures, so please understand that this will have to be digested in multiple reads.​

Is Medium where Tumblr posts go when they're done with college.

My god its like reading art history papers.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Doesn't Korea have regular porn? It's not like K-Pop is the only option under Neo-Confucian society.

I'm guessing the titillation aspect of it plays a big role in its popularity. It allows fans to indulge in fetishy material without being outright (by Western standards I guess) pornographic.

 

[Silver Arrows]

I'm guessing the titillation aspect of it plays a big role in its popularity. It allows fans to indulge in fetishy material without being outright (by Western standards I guess) pornographic.

That's really the crux of the issue.

 

[The Albatross]

I only like neo-Schillerian metaphysical pop tbh

This is the only reasonable response

 

[Teggy]

"Neo-Confucian cum receptacles" is quite the turn of phrase.

 

[McStickenstein]

I'm guessing the titillation aspect of it plays a big role in its popularity. It allows fans to indulge in fetishy material without being outright (by Western standards I guess) pornographic.

Yup. And the fact that it's socially acceptable means that people can indulge in it without shame.

 

[Poppy]

why not just title it "kpop is generally not feminist" instead of making it a really boring philosophy thesis instead

 

[Magus1234]

So this is basically the anime of Korea?

 

[Slayven]

Again, it's going to fall on deaf ears, especially in regards to the (majority) male fans of girl groups who want to keep the status quo. It's very much a classic Gamergate tactic into silencing those who try to stand up and think differently, in order to keep their pretty, pure Korean girls from being infected by those damn Western SJW's.

Unless they hanging with black people. And god forbid tall black people

 

[messiaen]

Again, it's going to fall on deaf ears, especially in regards to the (majority) male fans of girl groups who want to keep the status quo. It's very much a classic Gamergate tactic into silencing those who try to stand up and think differently, in order to keep their pretty, pure Korean girls from being infected by those damn Western SJW's.

I don't doubt it. But hopefully a few people will see it for what it is. I don't expect this article to catch the world on fire--especially because of the poor writing--but you know, we can hope a few people will see this and adjust their consumption rate and maybe think more about the little details like framing, composition of shots, and why these approaches were taken.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Actually, there is a HUGE difference between kpop being a proxy for porn and between kpop being a way to enforce already existing social norms about how you are not in control of your body, are just basically a proxy for carrying a child or providing pleasure to your husband.

Also, personally, I like how half of this thread's posts are putting the writer down ("I could have written it more compact, etc"), and yet, those remarks do not add much to the discussion other than "I could have done this better", which can be literally said about ANYTHING. The article itself was quite eye-opening to me, to be honest.

If the way in which you've tried to convey your argument gets in the way of that argument being understood, you've probably failed to effectively convey it.

I find the intentions of the author suspect because he's illustrated the article with exploitative art not directly related to his subject. You can write about a thing without indulging in a similar yet tangential thing.

In conclusion, watch this instead of reading the article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1GI8mNU5Sg

 

[Silver Arrows]

Unless they hanging with black people. And god forbid tall black people

Oh god, don't mention that, then we'd have to get into the racist elements of kpop. But you and I have already talked privately about that, no, with the black girl in Rania?

I don't doubt it. But hopefully a few people will see it for what it is. I don't expect this article to catch the world on fire--especially because of the poor writing--but you know, we can hope a few people will see this and adjust their consumption rate and maybe think more about the little details like framing, composition of shots, and why these approaches were taken.

Maybe not based on this, but I got out of Korean pop when one of my favorite groups, 2NE1, got utterly dicked around and eventually disbanded due to a misogynistic as fuck CEO, and when they did, I vowed never to watch another music video, or listen to another song ever again.

I've kept my promise.

 

[Kinyou]

The stuff that goes on behind the scenes in K-pop seems a lot more worrying to me than people jerking off to it.

 

[Silver Arrows]

The stuff that goes on behind the scenes in K-pop seems a lot more worrying to me than people jerking off to it.

Agreed. It's an underbelly of racism and xenophobia, sexism, misogyny, the whole works.

And yet none of the idols are willing to speak out against it, because when you do, well there goes any sort of work you can have in Korea. At least Chinese born idols can say 'fuck you' and go back home and be relatively successful, speaking out against your company is a fucking death wish.

 

[A.D. Skinner]

Sex sells, but because they're Asian, they're only doing it for us those out of Asia, mhmm.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Sex sells, but because they're Asian, they're only doing it for us those out of Asia, mhmm.

This is false. The Hallyu wave, as it stands, isn't about sex completely. Really, one of the most powerful aspects of it all is using idols to hawk beauty care products. Korea is pretty much Ground Zero for the best of that stuff in all the world. And they hawk it all over Southeastern Asia most specifically. If you are some young girl in Singapore or Vietnam, and you see Suzy, or Seolhyun hawking these products, it leads to yet another way the industry can rope you in.

 

[Human Trashcan]

The stuff that goes on behind the scenes in K-pop seems a lot more worrying to me than people jerking off to it.

Can you point me to some links about this? I'm curious, with all the references to it here. I know very little about the scene.