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The Atlantic: Why Canada is able to do things better

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/canada-america-taxes/533847/

The title is a bit (I imagine intentionally) inflammatory, but the meat of the article talks about the correlation between higher taxes and a better overall experience for a countries citizens. Forgive the title and the slightly condescending tone, I sincerely think the most interesting thing in this article is the discussion of infrastructure.

When I was a young kid growing up in Montreal, our annual family trips to my grandparents’ Florida condo in the 1970s and ‘80s offered glimpses of a better life. Not just Bubbie and Zadie’s miniature, sun-bronzed world of Del Boca Vista, but the whole sprawling infrastructural colossus of Cold War America itself, with its famed interstate highway system and suburban sprawl. Many Canadians then saw themselves as America’s poor cousins, and our inferiority complex asserted itself the moment we got off the plane.

Decades later, the United States presents visitors from the north with a different impression. There hasn’t been a new major airport constructed in the United States since 1995. And the existing stock of terminals is badly in need of upgrades. Much of the surrounding road and rail infrastructure is in even worse shape (the trip from LaGuardia Airport to midtown Manhattan being particularly appalling). Washington, D.C.’s semi-functional subway system feels like a World’s Fair exhibit that someone forgot to close down. Detroit’s 90-year-old Ambassador Bridge—which carries close to $200 billion worth of goods across the Canada-U.S. border annually—has been operating beyond its engineering capacity for years. In 2015, the Canadian government announced it would be paying virtually the entire bill for a new bridge (including, amazingly, the U.S. customs plaza on the Detroit side), after Michigan’s government pled poverty. “We are unable to build bridges, we're unable to build airports, our inner city school kids are not graduating,” is how JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon summarized the state of things during an earnings conference call last week. “It’s almost embarrassing being an American citizen.”

...

The Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD), a group of 35 wealthy countries, ranks its members by overall tax burden—that is, total tax revenues at every level of government, added together and then expressed as a percentage of GDP—and in latest year for which data is available, 2014, the United States came in fourth to last. Its tax burden was 25.9 percent—substantially less than the OECD average, 34.2 percent. If the United States followed that mean OECD rate, there would be about an extra $1.5 trillion annually for governments to spend on better schools, safer roads, better-trained police, and more accessible health care.

...

By contrast, when Kansas Governor Sam Brownback abruptly slashed the state’s top income tax rate by 26 percent in 2012, state revenues went into a freefall. Yet the notions that government is always a plague upon the economy and that lower tax rates will lead directly to growth and prosperity—which have together accreted into a core plank of U.S. conservative ideology since the Reagan years—still remain popular. And Donald Trump seems intent on steering the country onto the same downward trajectory as Kansas: His “Taxpayer First” budget plan, released in May, proposed enormous tax cuts that, his administration claimed, would pay for themselves through the economic boom they’d bring about. (In an analysis released last week, the Congressional Budget Office took a much dimmer view.)

More at the link.

So, this is slightly interesting to me, and I'm curious about potentially reading more about the relationship between taxation an quality of life. Within Canada would be great, but a global look would be real interesting too. Would love to hear from smarter Gaffers than me on this topic.
 
I think America's extreme leaning of Capitalism is why the economy is in the state its in. Greed from Politicians and deliberately keeping a voter base ignorant to all the evil being done. This shit has an effect.

Canada isn't innocent by any means but we have incorporated Socialistic ideals into how our government operates. There's a balance between Socialism* and Captialism.


*It's not even really socialism but you mention universal healthcare to some Americans and they scream Socialist, Commie etc.
 
It's telling that Sanders is considered left-wing. His proposed tax increases don't come close to what is needed for Scandinavian-style welfare, which he claims to be for

Aren't there better examples in Europe?

Probably, but USA and, Canada are more comparable in other ways, making for a better comparison and a stronger case
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Our political system is more corrupted by money.

That's it basically.

Our politicians don't actually represent us. They represent donors.

Just look at trump care. Clearly horrible. 24 percent approval. Yet still tried to ram it through as tax break to wealthy.
 

Plumbob

Member
I always imagine taxes + social programs as a damping function on the economy. Your highs are lower (fewer multi billion companies) but your lows are higher (less poverty, higher education levels).
 

Rockandrollclown

lookwhatyou'vedone
There's no going back. The wealthy at one point had like a 60% tax rate. That will never happen again. The middle class and poor are already paycheck to paycheck, so you can't really increase on them without it hurting, unless you're including healthcare in the taxes. The rich don't pay their fair share, and our infrastructure continues to crumble.
 

entremet

Member
I like Social Democracy a lot. Still gives Capitalism the nice lever it needs, while providing for the least fortunate and investing in the future.

I honestly think racism is the reason we don't have it in the US. The US had Social Democracy in a sense during the big Western European waves of immigration. Land was cheap and obtaining was subsidized by the US government.

However, if you were black, brown, or Asian, forget it. We ain't helping you!
 
As a Canadian, one thing that strikes me as unprogressive about European taxation is the 20+% sales tax. Lower income people end up suffering more from sales tax than rich people.
 

SRG01

Member
Canada clearly gets something right when political parties actively campaign on getting corporate and union donations out of political parties and elections.

With regards to the article though, it truly depends on the jurisdiction. Municipal roads and infrastructure are a whole different ball game as cities don't have the same revenue generating powers as provincial/federal governments.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Tying the problems with America's infrastructure to taxation seems like conflating two different problems. Fundamentally there's no tangible benefit to politicians in just maintaining roads and infrastructure because they likely aren't going to be rewarded by voters for it, especially if all that happens during their term is a big hole gets dug that inconveniences everyone. I don't see anyone living in NYC saying the problem with the subway is that there isn't enough money being thrown at it, and rather that it's horribly mismanaged.

Wanting additional government services and needing to pay for it is a whole 'nother issue.
 

Lev

Member
Our political system is more corrupted by money.

That's it basically.

Pretty much.

wall-street-44.png


Maybe I'm too cynical but I don't think we can go back to make the rich pay a significant amount of taxes again. We have too many loopholes in our tax and financial systems that will allow the rich to take their money and businesses outside of our country. I'm sure eventually though the rich will abandon us once after they destroy our economy anyway.
 

Vixdean

Member
The whole "no new airports" thing bugs me because it's a really stupid metric. I've lived in 3 major cities and each one of them have seen major renovations to existing airports over the past 20 years. Brand new terminals, overhauling existing terminals, etc....

Also, I have a lot of relatives in Canada and visit there often, it isn't exactly some sort of western utopia. The roads and bridges around Montreal are a goddamn disaster and all of them constantly bitch about how high their taxes are and how expensive everything is. My cousin had to move to a place called Hawkesbury to be able to afford a house. Basically if Bumfuck had a city called Bumfuck, it would be Hawkesbury.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Half of the politicians in the US have pledged to never raise taxes under any circumstances, and when they get in power do everything they can to lower taxes. Then they claim at the same time that the deficit is insurmountable and will try to cut spending that way, despite their tax cuts always adding to said deficit dramatically. This makes funding anything almost impossible under the current climate.

Transportation bills before the late 90's used to go through nearly unchallenged as both parties realized that they could get dollars for their states and keeping the roads running was a political no brainer. No anymore.
 

Derwind

Member
Tax-cuts & spending cuts is not a long-term strategy, like cutting of both your arms isn't a long term strategy, for a fraction of a second your body may be spending less energy fueling those limbs but as you start bleeding out, it no longer is feasible.

That's probably a terrible analogy now that I think about.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
So does the American public need convincing of the values of taxation? Is one of the big hurdles of this racism, and the legacy of slavery for example? Are American corporations too powerful to be able to wrest control out of their hands?

I know my questions sound like they are coming out of the anti 1%'ers guidebook, but I'd love a more measured and thoughtful conversation than that. For example, the U.S. is an economic Goliath on the world stage, and it's technology and culture are exported everywhere - is this a product of the system that is broken for it's citizens?
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It's because Canada has about 1/10th the population
 

Guevara

Member
Americans don't want to pay taxes.

Complicating factor is: most Americans immediately spend 100% of their income, more than 100% when you factor in credit. So it's going to be very painful for them to find additional money.
 

tuxfool

Banned
So does the American public need convincing of the values of taxation? Is one of the big hurdles of this racism, and the legacy of slavery for example? Are American corporations too powerful to be able to wrest control out of their hands?

In my experience people from the US are complete dumbasses in regards to taxation. Both in education and attitude.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
We pay more than anyone else for healthcare and education and receive worse quality of these for both. I'm not throwing more money down the drain for this shit. Infrastructure is fine though, but my suspicion is most of the fed infrastructure money is spent on places where it will gain the most political capital and not the most needed.
 

Xando

Member
We pay more than anyone else for healthcare and education and receive worse quality of these for both. I'm not throwing more money down the drain for this shit. Infrastructure is fine though, but my suspicion is most of the fed infrastructure money is spent on places where it will gain the most political capital and not the most needed.

For interest sake how much do you pay for healthcare per month?

Here in germany i pay 7% of my wage and my employer pays another 7%.
 

Rockandrollclown

lookwhatyou'vedone
For interest sake how much do you pay for healthcare per month?

Here in germany i pay 7% of my wage and my employer pays another 7%.

I pay about 5%, employer more than that. The thing to keep in mind though is you pay your 7%, you go to a doctor/hospital and you probably get treated at little to no cost. I want to say I have to incur like $7000 in medical costs before insurance kicks in. So, 5% a month, but if I have to use it, that cost goes way up.
 

Xando

Member
I pay about 5%, employer more than that. The thing to keep in mind though is you pay your 7%, you go to a doctor/hospital and you probably get treated at little to no cost. I want to say I have to incur like $7000 in medical costs before insurance kicks in. So, 5% a month, but if I have to use it, that cost goes way up.

Huh that's insane.

Sometimes i have to pay for meds who aren't covered (not more than 5-10€) otherwise the only extra payment i ever made was for a single bedroom while i was in the hosipital (something like 60€ for a week).
 

LakeEarth

Member
Tax-cuts & spending cuts is not a long-term strategy, like cutting of both your arms isn't a long term strategy, for a fraction of a second your body may be spending less energy fueling those limbs but as you start bleeding out, it no longer is feasible.

That's probably a terrible analogy now that I think about.

How about... it's like cutting off your legs to lose weight. Sure, you're technically lighter now, but it makes losing weight even harder, and made your quality of life terrible in the process.
 

Oppo

Member
I used a similar argument with an American conservative friend once.

Basically -- you asked for the cheap motel. You wanted to save your money. So you are getting what you paid for. Canadians want a nice hotel. They are generally willing to pay for it. Why don't you want to stay in a nice hotel?

It's actually a shitty analogy but it sorta works on the right wing brain as a point of perspective.
 

Misha

Banned
Americans don't want to pay taxes.

Complicating factor is: most Americans immediately spend 100% of their income, more than 100% when you factor in credit. So it's going to be very painful for them to find additional money.

those aren't the people who should be paying more taxes

So does the American public need convincing of the values of taxation? Is one of the big hurdles of this racism, and the legacy of slavery for example? Are American corporations too powerful to be able to wrest control out of their hands?

I know my questions sound like they are coming out of the anti 1%'ers guidebook, but I'd love a more measured and thoughtful conversation than that. For example, the U.S. is an economic Goliath on the world stage, and it's technology and culture are exported everywhere - is this a product of the system that is broken for it's citizens?

people i know just think taxes are bad. i get the feeling it started with them being afraid of losing their money that they really don't have (like Guevara mentioned) and then just applied that wholesale to the concept of taxes in general like "if i don't want to pay taxes, rich people wouldn't want to pay taxes either and why should they"

I had a conversation with my friend a couple days ago about how both of us are willing to pay more taxes cause it can help society but thats the only time in my life ive heard someone express that sentiment (at least not without a "but")
 

Draxal

Member
Probably, but it's easier to compare Canada to Americans since Americans are more familiar with it.

I think Canada works better as well because its population density is more similiar to the US as well (limiting Canada to the habitable areas near the border of course).
 
We pay more than anyone else for healthcare and education and receive worse quality of these for both. I'm not throwing more money down the drain for this shit. Infrastructure is fine though, but my suspicion is most of the fed infrastructure money is spent on places where it will gain the most political capital and not the most needed.

Exactly, increasing taxes is throwing money into a pit of corruption, racism and warfare.
 

bigkrev

Member
For interest sake how much do you pay for healthcare per month?

Here in germany i pay 7% of my wage and my employer pays another 7%.

The number I pay each month is equal to 7% of my wage (and the employer pays the rest), though its a hard number, not a percentage, so if I was making less money the percent would go up.
 

Morts

Member
Should taxes be higher? Yes. Do i trust that the additional revenue would be allocated at all intelligently? Nope.
 

Derwind

Member
How about... it's like cutting off your legs to lose weight. Sure, you're technically lighter now, but it makes losing weight even harder, and made your quality of life terrible in the process.

You expressed that thought far better than I could.

Exactly, increasing taxes is throwing money into a pit of corruption, racism and warfare.

Not trying to say your wrong about corruption but I think the issue rests on the politicians implementing the taxation, not the act of raising taxes on it's own.
 
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