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[cwmartin]

As dumb, white-trash as these kids are, I also don't think it's grounds for expulsion. If they were targeting a student/s specifically, then yes. If they're just being racist dickheads among each other, that's on them.

They still represent the chapter (not anymore) along with the student body of the University. The same reason people are fired from their jobs, they should be expelled.

 

[Skellig Gra]

As dumb, white-trash as these kids are, I also don't think it's grounds for expulsion. If they were targeting a student/s specifically, then yes. If they're just being racist dickheads among each other, that's on them.

I disagree. Part of going through college/university is preparing yourself for adult life. What they did is not acceptable in society and they need to have that beaten in to their brains so they don't pass it on to their "dumb white trash" offspring.

 

[suberzat]

I did not say that a 20 year old doesn't know any better - I said that a 20 year old does a lot of stupid shit and shouldn't be barred from going to school (or, as some other posters on the first page or two mentioned, "be removed from society") because they are a dumbass.

So where would you rank this for a 20 year doing stupid shit?

 

[Tapiozona]

Wish I could be a fly on the wall in the SAE house to see/hear their reactions as their safe little world is crumbling down.

 

[entremet]

Any updates on the punishments?

 

[soundahfekz]

They shouldn't be barred from going to school, just from going to THAT school. Expulsion is completely appropriate punishment for adults who make these decisions from themselves.

Would you think the same if someone was fired from their job over something like this?

but kids are gonna be kids man,

c'mon!

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Can someone explain to me what the hell a fraternity is and what's its utility?

Bros, partying and the possibility of getting a job in the future because the guy doing the hiring is a bro you partied with.

 

[bchamba]

They shouldn't be allowed to return to that school. This chant plus alcohol could easily lead to actual violence against a black man/woman who happens to be around them at the wrong time.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Good. Justice has been served.

Grad justice was carried out.

That confirms the closing of the frat chapter, which we knew about pages ago.

I don't think anything of actual consequence has happened to the students, except they have to find new dorms on campus.

 

[Enron]

Can someone explain to me what the hell a fraternity is and what's its utility?

They don't have any real utility outside of some occasional community service things and for networking for jobs after graduating - the main function is a social club while you are in school.

There are some Fraternities that aren't social and are strictly for networking - like major-specific frats (I was in one of these at my university)

 

[masud]

Mobile, but here is the statement.


TO: All Students, Faculty, and Staff

To those who have misused their free speech in such a reprehensible way, I have a message for you. You are disgraceful. You have violated all that we stand for. You should not have the privilege of calling yourselves "Sooners." Real Sooners are not racist. Real Sooners are not bigots. Real Sooners believe in equal opportunity. Real Sooners treat all people with respect. Real Sooners love each other and take care of each other like family members.

Effective immediately, all ties and affiliations between this University and the local SAE chapter are hereby severed. I direct that the house be closed and that members will remove their personal belongings from the house by midnight tomorrow. Those needing to make special arrangements for positions shall contact the Dean of Students.

All of us will redouble our efforts to create the strongest sense of family and community. We vow that we will be an example to the entire country of how to deal with this issue. There must be zero tolerance for racism everywhere in our nation.

David L. Boren
President
University of Oklahoma

.It's pretty clear that the University can't legally expel them for this and I think that's how it should be. I don't like the precedent of kicking people out of a public university for saying something that would otherwise be legal, no matter how disgusting it is.

 

[phanphare]

Can someone explain to me what the hell a fraternity is and what's its utility?

from wikipedia

"A fraternity (Latin frater : "brother") is a brotherhood, although the term sometimes connotes a distinct or formal organization and sometimes a secret society. A fraternity (or fraternal organization) is an organized society of men associated together in an environment of companionship and brotherhood dedicated to the intellectual, physical, moral, religious, and/or social development of its members."

this is what a fraternity is ideally speaking

 

[GulAtiCa]

As dumb, white-trash as these kids are, I also don't think it's grounds for expulsion. If they were targeting a student/s specifically, then yes. If they're just being racist dickheads among each other, that's on them.

No exception. These adults knew what they were doing. This wasn't some kind of harmless prank, this is full on racist and plenty of hate.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

They shouldn't be barred from going to school, just from going to THAT school. Expulsion is completely appropriate punishment for adults who make these decisions from themselves.

Would you think the same if someone was fired from their job over something like this?

I know this was discussed at length last night, but no this is not the same situation as working at an employer. OU is a public school, therefore a government agency. Government agencies are not allowed to punish students for reprehensible remarks. If OU decided to go further and expel students, they very well could face a lawsuit and would likely lose.

The reason OU is able to kick people out of the house is because the national SAE organization stopped recognizing the chapter. This in turn likely violates the land lease agreement with the university which then gives the school the ability to go in and clear the house. If this house was off-campus, the only entity that could force the students to move would be the national chapter.

 

[Feel the Swift]

.It's pretty clear that the University can't legally expel them for this and I think that's how it should be. I don't like the precedent of kicking people out of a public university for saying something that would otherwise be legal, no matter how disgusting it is.

Why do people keep saying this? It needs to happen! There needs to be a change, people need to be held accountable for what they say and actions.

 

[Skellig Gra]

.It's pretty clear that the University can't legally expel them for this and I think that's how it should be. I don't like the precedent of kicking people out of a public university for saying something that would otherwise be legal, no matter how disgusting it is.

That's debatable. You could take the lyrics of that song as a threat and/or attempting to incite a riot.

 

[RumblingRosco]

That confirms the closing of the frat chapter, which we knew about pages ago.

I don't think anything of actual consequence has happened to the students, except they have to find new dorms on campus.

This is true. The video I saw, to be honest, was sort of blurry and not well-lit and so I'm not sure how many students they can identify in that video... I'd say at most less than 6. So, the question now is do they punish every student within the frat or just those in the video? At the very least, I assume that nearly all of them are guilty of letting this shit go without stepping up to stop it, but I'm not sure what a fair punishment for that would be.

EDIT: Re-watching the video, it's not really blurry at all, just not a wide enough scope to see more than maybe 2-3 students. Again, I'm not saying that the entire house isn't guilty of at the very least being complicit with this dumb shit, but I don't know what a fair punishment is for that.

 

[Bastos]

Bros, partying and the possibility of getting a job in the future because the guy doing the hiring is a bro you partied with.

That's useful! Wish there was something like this here.

They don't have any real utility outside of some occasional community service things and for networking for jobs after graduating - the main function is a social club while you are in school.

There are some Fraternities that aren't social and are strictly for networking - like major-specific frats (I was in one of these at my university)

Networking alone just makes everything more useful hehe.

Thank you two for the answers

 

[Raistlin]

They still represent the chapter (not anymore) along with the student body of the University. The same reason people are fired from their jobs, they should be expelled.

No, they shouldn't. This is where idealism goes bad.


You get expelled for crimes, threats of violence, etc. Other things you get strikes on your record. And that's how it should be. Otherwise there'd be like 10% graduation rates and society as it is currently structured would fall apart.

Hell even for crimes there is wiggle room. Do you honestly think every student busted for underage drinking should be insta-expelled? lol. No one would graduate.

 

[Damerman]

Lynch them on a tree?

For real? Anyone who doens't find that superficially barbaric line disturbing enough to not chant it is dangerous in my opinion. I have less of an issue with a racist who doesn't want blacks in its group, but to reference sensless violence is way over the line.

 

[cwmartin]

I know this was discussed at length last night, but no this is not the same situation as working at an employer. OU is a public school, therefore a government agency. Government agencies are not allowed to punish students for reprehensible remarks. If OU decided to go further and expel students, they very well could face a lawsuit and would likely lose.

The reason OU is able to kick people out of the house is because the national SAE organization stopped recognizing the chapter. This in turn likely violates the land lease agreement with the university which then gives the school the ability to go in and clear the house. If this house was off-campus, the only entity that could force the students to move would be the national chapter.

You may be legally correct, but that brings up a lot of other concerns with the system in general. OU has a student conduct policy, which would include actions that are not considered illegal.

Is cheating on an exam illegal? Certainly not, but if someone was caught cheating, or colluding with others to cheat on exams, I don't think the University would think twice about expelling a student for a reason that isn't illegal.

 

[Skellig Gra]

No, they shouldn't. This is where idealism goes bad.


You get expelled for crimes, threats of violence, etc. Other things you get strikes on your record. And that's how it should be. Otherwise there'd be like 10% graduation rates and society as it is currently structured would fall apart.

Hell even for crimes there is wiggle room. Do you honestly think every student busted for underage drinking should be insta-expelled? lol. No one would graduate.

Someone who is racist and drunk could easily get inspired by singing a song "you can hang em from a tree" and then go out and act on it.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

.It's pretty clear that the University can't legally expel them for this and I think that's how it should be. I don't like the precedent of kicking people out of a public university for saying something that would otherwise be legal, no matter how disgusting it is.

A university can expel you for any number of reasons which have nothing to do with actual law, they just can't do so in a discriminatory fashion. Codes of conduct cover what is expected of a representative of a university, it's not just "don't break the law."

For example, it's not illegal to call your dean a "fucking dumbass fa****" to his face, but I bet you'd get the boot pretty quickly after that.

 

[AzureRonin]

I love that employers Google you now. Hopefully this will follow those who are accountable.

 

[cwmartin]

No, they shouldn't. This is where idealism goes bad.


You get expelled for crimes, threats of violence, etc. Other things you get strikes on your record. And that's how it should be. Otherwise there'd be like 10% graduation rates and society as it is currently structured would fall apart.

Hell even for crimes there is wiggle room. Do you honestly think every student busted for underage drinking should be insta-expelled? lol. No one would graduate.

Student's are expelled by the thousands for violating their schools Code of Conduct Policy all over the country.

I literally never said people should be expelled for any particular reason, but that this action, by these students, qualifies as a reason to expel. That's it.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Can someone explain to me what the hell a fraternity is and what's its utility?

A chapter of a social fraternity (the kind in question here) is a private group of individuals from a particular university or college that form a group for social, scholastic, networking, service, and other reasons. The best thing I did when I got to my large, Midwestern public university was join a group (in my case it was the rowing club,) it "shrunk" the 30k student body campus down to a reasonable number and made the transition much easier.

 

[Feel the Swift]

No, they shouldn't. This is where idealism goes bad.


You get expelled for crimes, threats of violence, etc. Other things you get strikes on your record. And that's how it should be. Otherwise there'd be like 10% graduation rates and society as it is currently structured would fall apart.

Hell even for crimes there is wiggle room. Do you honestly think every student busted for underage drinking should be insta-expelled? lol. No one would graduate.

I throw this reasoning out the window because racism just needs to fucking go away. Extreme measures should be taken accordingly.

 

[AzureRonin]

Otherwise there'd be like 10% graduation rates and society as it is currently structured would fall apart.

Rewarding those that actually deserve it sounds like a great way to get society back on track.

 

[Raistlin]

Someone who is racist and drunk could easily get inspired by singing a song "you can hang em from a tree" and then go out and act on it.

That's a tough road to go down.

Unless you can make a convincing argument that it's actually instilling violence, a terrorist threat, hate speech, whatever ... you're running against the 1st amendment. Half of the music out there could be cited if this is the watermark. Think of how much violence against women could be argued?

 

[masud]

Why do people keep saying this? It needs to happen! There needs to be a change, people need to be held accountable for what they say and actions.

There doesn't need to be violations of the first amendment. They were kicked out of their private organization and hopefully they'll be ostracized from the community but government agencies should not be policing thought.

That's debatable. You could take the lyrics of that song as a threat and/or attempting to incite a riot.

I don't think it is. And the President of the university seems to agree as he's unwilling to take on that fight.

 

[Raistlin]

Rewarding those that actually deserve it sounds like a great way to get society back on track.

Unfortunately people get 'rewarded' for shitty stuff all the time.


I'm not saying I like it.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

You may be legally correct, but that brings up a lot of other concerns with the system in general. OU has a student conduct policy, which would include actions that are not considered illegal.

Is cheating on an exam illegal? Certainly not, but if someone was caught cheating, or colluding with others to cheat on exams, I don't think the University would think twice about expelling a student for a reason that isn't illegal.

The test would be is cheating considered free speech or in general protected by the constitution. And that answer is no. Therefore the school is free to levy a punishment as they see fit.

A student conduct policy at a public school can't have provisions for limiting protected speech. Here's an article talking about a lawsuit Temple University lost by creating a policy inconsistent with how the 1st is intrepreted: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/08/05/temple

 

[injurai]

i was hoping this would be a click-bait and it would be a different n-word

 

[Skellig Gra]

That's a tough road to go down.

Unless you can make a convincing argument that it's actually instilling violence, a terrorist threat, hate speech, whatever ... you're running against the 1st amendment. Half of the music out there could be cited if this is the watermark. Think of how much violence against women could be argued?

Tough? Sure. But I think it might be necessary. A lot of things need to change in this country and we might as well start with the blatantly obvious stuff like this.

 

[cwmartin]

That's a tough road to go down.

Unless you can make a convincing argument that it's actually instilling violence, a terrorist threat, hate speech, whatever ... you're running against the 1st amendment. Half of the music out there could be cited if this is the watermark. Think of how much violence against women could be argued?

There appear to be two dots we need to connect.

dot number one:
"There will never be a nigger at #SAE"

dot number two:
How many members of the OU SAE chapter are black?



That's all the convincing argument any reasonable populace should need.

 

[Feel the Swift]

There doesn't need to be violations of the first amendment. They were kicked out of their private organization and hopefully they'll be ostracized from the community but government agencies should not be policing thought.



I don't think it is. And the President of the university seems to agree as he's unwilling to take on that fight.

First amendment was established when racism was rampant lol. It's outdated. Racism shouldn't be allowed just because of this clause period. I'll stand by that.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I'm pretty confident that the first and second amendment are the most misunderstood articles of text in America.

 

[M0nochromatic]

Thank god the university won't expel them for using a chant that involved "you can hang en from a tree"

They are just kids after all. What's the point in having consequences for racism? I'm sure they weren't even racist to begin with. Who hasn't chanted a racist creed that advocates murder at some point in their lives?

 

[Raistlin]

I throw this reasoning out the window because racism just needs to fucking go away. Extreme measures should be taken accordingly.

My heart agrees with you, but my head does not.


Racism does need to go away, but extreme measures just aren't realistic here. Seriously consider what taking this to its logical end would yield. Let's expel and fire everyone that's a racist. Let's do the same for someone who even makes a racist statement out of stupidity or following the crowd, even if they're really only 'racist light' or less. Basically ostracize them entirely from society at large. Also note that this would need to be dolled out equitably, meaning minorities who make statements versus other minorities would also get dinged, and so would people making statements like this against whites.

What would the mid/long-term societal and economic situation be in our country? How would crime be impacted? How would our GDP look?




Now don't get me wrong, if any of these twats have already been caught in a similar situation, give them the ax. Similarly if they do it again, they should be gone.

 

[Ekdrm2d1]

wow

 

[Anoregon]

There was an SAE branch when I went to college that wasn't even officially recognized by the university, and were the worst idiot frat-boy stereotypes you can imagine. A bunch of kids got suspended/expelled for being involved in it.

 

[Feel the Swift]

My heart agrees with you, but my head does not.


Racism does need to go away, but extreme measures just aren't realistic here. Seriously consider what taking this to its logical end would yield. Let's expel and fire everyone that's a racist. Let's do the same for someone who even makes a racist statement out of stupidity or following the crowd, even if they're really only 'racist light' or less. Basically ostracize them entirely from society at large. Also note that this would need to be dolled out equitably, meaning minorities who make statements versus other minorities would also get dinged, and so would people making statements like this against whites.

What would the mid/long-term societal and economic situation be in our country? How would crime be impacted? How would our GDP look?

Good points, but why not just make another example out of these people? Schools and organizations do it for other various reasons to try to encourage people not to make the same choices.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I love that employers Google you now. Hopefully this will follow those who are accountable.

How we wish it would happen:

Employer: I see here that you got into a spot of trouble while you were in college. Care to explain?
Applicant: Well you see, the fellas and I in SAE thought it would be funny to sing this stupid frat song we heard one time, it was nothing serious...
Employer: It wasn't serious for you to *looks down to read* "hang niggers from a tree"?
Applicant: ...
Employer: I think we're done here.

How it will actually happen:

Employer: I see here that you got into a spot of trouble while you were in college. Care to explain?
Applicant: Well you see, the fellas and I in SAE thought it would be funny...
Employer: Wait, you pledged SAE? Brother, why didn't you say so? I was a chapter head, UNC class of '08! I remember that incident, I thought you guys got a bum wrap. Why don't we skip the formalities and paperwork and go grab a drink? Welcome to the offices of the Oklahoma legislature!

 

[Raistlin]

There appear to be two dots we need to connect.

dot number one:
"There will never be a nigger at #SAE"

dot number two:
How many members of the OU SAE chapter are black?



That's all the convincing argument any reasonable populace should need.

Admittedly I'm joining this mid-stream so I may have missed some of the talking points. What are you trying to state here? That their local chapter should be closed? I don't have a problem with that.

 

[SummitAve]

Good points, but why not just make another example out of these people? Schools and organizations do it for other various reasons to try to encourage people not to make the same choices.

You're talking about a state school. What grounds would they have to treat racists unequally?

 

[Zoolader]

President Obama should just drone bomb these bitches.

 

[Raistlin]

Good points, but why not just make another example out of these people? Schools and organizations do it for other various reasons to try to encourage people not to make the same choices.

I can see an argument for that personally, but that wasn't really what I was commenting on.

Some here seem to be taking an extreme hard line, and idealistically arguing expulsion / firing should be automatic and done at large.



I suspect that's more of a knee-jerk reaction, and isn't really what they mean (or wouldn't once they stand back and think about it). I get this is a very heated topic, and obviously causes emotions to come into play. I'm just trying to ground the debate a bit here.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

For example, it's not illegal to call your dean a "fucking dumbass fa****" to his face, but I bet you'd get the boot pretty quickly after that.

If it was a public school, a civil rights lawyer would be filing suit pretty quickly after that. A government agency, such as a public school, can't abridge free speech based on content. Now if you told your dean, "I'm going to beat the shit out of your fucking dumbass fa**** face" to his face, you'd get expelled pretty quickly after that. But that's illegal, so it's not quite analogous.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

No exception. These adults knew what they were doing. This wasn't some kind of harmless prank, this is full on racist and plenty of hate.

Well, if every racist OU student were to get expelled, that school would thin out in a big way.

If the racism is targeting someone, I think expulsion suits. If someone is overheard just saying racist things to a friend on campus, I don't think it does. Certainly a meeting with the Dean of Students and probation, but not expulsion.

Anyway, these dumbshits will be dealing with quite a bit of crap from this, so at least there's that.

 

[Gaz_RB]

I wonder if this is some old fraternity chant they make pledges do or something. Outrageous.