Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Your problem here is defining this oppressive, *gleeful* hate and racism as just being a dumbass.
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Fraternity chanting the n-word
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Sho_Nuff82
Member
Hate speech is protected from legal consequence. Fighting words are not. Until this thread, I was unaware that hate speech was also protected for government employees and the like for disciplinary termination.
You also claimed it wasn't real hate or discrimination, and no one called you a racist.
None of this is limited to "the south".
GoldenEye 007
Member
Right. Legally there is little to do. Employees and faculty fall under a different set of expectations versus students.
Government employees are not protected. You can express religious or whatever personal beliefs at the government, but it cannot be done in a place where there is an expectation of the public seeing it. So at your desk vs. the office entrance. Also, if somebody is offended by what you express there's really no protection, and you can be dealt with accordingly.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I know, but I at least haven't had to personally endure eating lunch with coworkers while they shit-talk minorities since I've moved.
How can hate speech be allowed by government employees? It would be allowing racists to run public positions that affect the public greatly.
sooperkool
Member
OK fine, I'll compromise
Suspend them all for one year for the first honor code violation:
Hate Speech
Suspend them a second year for the second honor code violation:
Promoting violence by reference to lynching.
Suspend them all for one year for the first honor code violation:
Hate Speech
Suspend them a second year for the second honor code violation:
Promoting violence by reference to lynching.
Oklahoma isn't the south.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Why yes, yes it would.
Yeah Theta Chi got the old SAE house. I think Fall 06 the school kicked out 3 or 4 frats lol. Pi Kap, SAE, Sig Ep, and maybe one more (Delta Upsilon possibly but they may have been in trouble before that), and Pike had been kicked out a year or two earlier. my brother was in Sigma Chi and they recently got kicked off as well. The school seemed to have a personal and financial vendetta against the fraternities. Kicked them off and then bought the house/land so that they could charge a boat load and set tougher rules. Can't blame them.
:/
There's no way that they'll get kicked out of a public university for this - 1st amendment and all. People forget that the KKK and Westboro Church are protected by the 1st amendment, and as...abominable as that video was - it's not quite the level of those two groups.
Looks like the frat should be shut down, which it is; and I don't know if they can hit people with honor code violations for this either (public university and all). I'm..a little hesitant to go Old Testament on their asses (see the NYT article about Justine Sacco and all) - but, I guess the real question remains; do you go for rehabilitation (is it possible) or punishment? I don't know if punishing them super hard will actually do anything besides make us feel better about ourselves; but at 18-21 years old, I don't know if just sensitivity classes would do anything. Maybe have them doing a couple hundred hours of community service with local charities that help African Americans might do more actual good than anything else?
Hrm. :-/
There's no way that they'll get kicked out of a public university for this - 1st amendment and all. People forget that the KKK and Westboro Church are protected by the 1st amendment, and as...abominable as that video was - it's not quite the level of those two groups.
Looks like the frat should be shut down, which it is; and I don't know if they can hit people with honor code violations for this either (public university and all). I'm..a little hesitant to go Old Testament on their asses (see the NYT article about Justine Sacco and all) - but, I guess the real question remains; do you go for rehabilitation (is it possible) or punishment? I don't know if punishing them super hard will actually do anything besides make us feel better about ourselves; but at 18-21 years old, I don't know if just sensitivity classes would do anything. Maybe have them doing a couple hundred hours of community service with local charities that help African Americans might do more actual good than anything else?
Hrm. :-/
kamineko
Does his best thinking in the flying car
I grew up next door in Arkansas, and it's so disappointing to me that this kind of behavior is still, after all this time, socially rewarded (until you get caught, of course). I would have expected more out of young folks today.
I hope that OU applies the maximum penalty allowed by their code of conduct, and additionally takes time to reflect on whether their current policies have enough bite.
Disgusting
I hope that OU applies the maximum penalty allowed by their code of conduct, and additionally takes time to reflect on whether their current policies have enough bite.
Disgusting
GravityMan
Member
It doesn't matter if they are expelled or not, although yes it is in the best interests of everyone to expel them.
To a large extent, their livelihoods are forfeit, no matter what happens. It is that simple. Even if they do realize the error of their ways and reform themselves.
They have little or no chance to establish any decent career. Any halfway decent employer, even 20-30 years into the future, is going to do a background check, which will include social media and Google searches.
To a large extent, their livelihoods are forfeit, no matter what happens. It is that simple. Even if they do realize the error of their ways and reform themselves.
They have little or no chance to establish any decent career. Any halfway decent employer, even 20-30 years into the future, is going to do a background check, which will include social media and Google searches.
King Tubby
Member
Regardless of whatever punishment is inflicted, I would hope that at least one positive element to come of this is that racism is investigated more thoroughly at OU and campuses across the country. That twitter account is called "Unheard" for a reason.
I don't understand how burning a cross on a black family's lawn doesn't rise to the level of a terroristic threat, or at least harassment. Given the historical context of the symbol, that is an implied death threat.
What you describe would also be a different situation however, because it would be direct harassment of a group of fellow students. That doesn't seem to be what happened on the recording.
I don't understand how burning a cross on a black family's lawn doesn't rise to the level of a terroristic threat, or at least harassment. Given the historical context of the symbol, that is an implied death threat.
What you describe would also be a different situation however, because it would be direct harassment of a group of fellow students. That doesn't seem to be what happened on the recording.
WayneMorse
Banned
Does anyone know the names of the people in the video?
It infuriates me because these people go on to become politicians, CEOs and police officers. They become the next generations of Scott Walkers or Tom Cottons.
Well I mean, it's not really hard to change your name.
WayneMorse
Banned
If I were a student at University of Oklahoma I would be protesting everyday until all the students in that video are expelled.
And I hope this starts a discussion of the culture of racism in frats, it's disgusting.
And I hope this starts a discussion of the culture of racism in frats, it's disgusting.
freeofgreed
Member
The main person chanting in the video's identity has been revealed, though I won't post it since I don't know the rules about that sort of thing here.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
None of their names have been officially released, none have faced university-related sanctions, none have been or will be prosecuted for any wrongdoing. Grades permitting, they will graduate with none of this being reflected on their transcripts.
On the other hand, all were members of a centuries old social club with many affluent alumni. They'll be fine, a few name and shame fb groups aren't going to rock the boat of an American institution.
According to the census bureau it is.
block tower
Member
(thanks to Purple Cheeto for posting this in the CFB thread)
so nothing really happens to the chodes in the frat, they just have to relocate on campus and continue on with their fuckery away from a frat house.
WayneMorse
Banned
NYCmetsfan
Banned
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...75789/jean-delance-decommits-oklahoma-sooners
Looks like it might have hurt their recruiting for football too
Looks like it might have hurt their recruiting for football too
They're white, they'll be fine. Posters here have been excusing their behavior as not real hate I doubt people in the real world will care.
Squirrel Killer
Member
Such behavior could be prosecuted under many statutes. Vandalism, terrorist threats, harassment, arson, disturbing the peace, etc... But not under a hate speech statute because there is no hate speech statute since such a statute would be unconstitutionally based on content. Similarly, Nixon couldn't ban anti-war and anti-draft speech during the Vietnam War and how burning an American flag is protected speech.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Because they make a lot of money, both from kids with dues to alumni who donate, not to mention the ongoing legacy programs. All those big leaders posted on page one likely give/gave a lot of money back to the fraternity.
This was what's behind the Lambda Lambda Lambda jokes in Revenge of the Nerds. As quaint as all of the other jokes are when looking back (and as disturbing as the rape scene was), the group of white nerds having to appeal to a black fraternity to get any sort of fraternal standing (but only getting in without a group photo) was pretty telling for the time. Of course, memories of things like this are why it's hard to take Booger seriously on Supernatural.
The University provides for private housing and the use of University facilities, and there is a fair amount of unofficial advertising that each chapter does for the univeristy to alumni and prospective students, though that's for the sanctioned frats (unsanctioned ones are a black hole). There's big money in it for both sides, so a lot of things are allowed with a nod and a wink, unless it's something that gets a lot of negative publicity. There's no official tie beyond "you're allowed to exist here", but there's a lot at stake that's never stated, probably so that everyone can pretend they didn't know about things when this sort of thing happens.
Again, back to the lists of congressional and other leaders with ties to SAE, I wonder what chants those luminaries were making in their youth, and I wonder how long of a life this particular chant has had... I don't credit these chuckleheads with a lot of imagination.
Delta Assault
Member
Indeed. St. Paul could've prosecuted the guy under a number of different Minnesota statutes carrying significant penalties.
Minn. Stat. § 609.713(1) (providing for up to five years in prison for terroristic threats);
§ 609.563 (arson) (providing for up to five years and a $10,000 fine, depending on the value of the property intended to be damaged);
§ 609.595 (criminal damage to property) (providing for up to one year and a $3,000 fine, depending upon the extent of the damage to the property).
St. Paul chose to prosecute them under a overbroad statute that violated the First Amendment.
fierrotlepou
Member
It's a group for people who don't have any friends.
King Tubby
Member
Oh, I see. I didn't read the full context. In that case, I agree with the ruling.
Miles Quaritch
Member
'Kids'.
Piss off with that BS. They are grown ass men and women. Fuck every single of them chanting, they absolutely need to be expelled. Why should they just get a reprimand and be allowed to continue to study in what I assume is a multi-ethnic environment when they hold those kinds of views and aren't afraid of airing them?
What's to stop them from making life hell for other students? What's to stop them from forming small groups of like minded people and generally being cunts to other students? You don't accommodate cunts like these, you cut them out like the cancer they are and you damn well make sure that people understand that kind of behaviour is completely unacceptable and will never be tolerated.
Piss off with that BS. They are grown ass men and women. Fuck every single of them chanting, they absolutely need to be expelled. Why should they just get a reprimand and be allowed to continue to study in what I assume is a multi-ethnic environment when they hold those kinds of views and aren't afraid of airing them?
What's to stop them from making life hell for other students? What's to stop them from forming small groups of like minded people and generally being cunts to other students? You don't accommodate cunts like these, you cut them out like the cancer they are and you damn well make sure that people understand that kind of behaviour is completely unacceptable and will never be tolerated.
Delta Assault
Member
Probably like the Little Rock Nine back in 1957, I'd imagine.
fraternities are kind of sad
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Education? Mandatory lessons or community service in heavy minority areas? Expelling these kids won't do much good overall. All it will do is make them more bitter. This doesn't promote change and acceptance. You can say fuck them all you want but overall this isn't a good solution. It just lets you vent your frustration and anger.
fierrotlepou
Member
They are. It's usually a bunch of lonely frustrated kids meeting other frustrated kids.
I can't stand them.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Bullshit. Expelling them is a good solution. It shows others that choices have consequences. You can't change someone's heart. There is no solution for that. What we CAN do is show others that we will not tolerate this shit and you do so at your academic peril.
Miles Quaritch
Member
They are already bitter individuals, accommodating their views and saying 'you're a bad boy, don't do it again', doesn't change anything.
Allowing them to remain at the university only teaches them that actions like being racist don't carry consequences. That it's seen as a harmless act. That there aren't any real victims. This is a terrible message to send.
Racism is a cancer, you don't just leave it to fester. You remove it and make sure it's not allowed to spread and damn well make sure everyone understands such views are completely unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
1. They aren't kids.
2. They're already singing songs about hanging niggers from trees, I really don't give a shit if they get "more bitter".
Fuck them.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
It is the kneejerk reaction. It will show actions like these will have consequences but you can't change someone's heart? You're content with people going around, who you feel can't change, who harbor these ill feelings towards others?
Tossing someone aside instead of teaching will only cause more misery. You think they will learn their lesson? No. They will most likely rationalize their behavior and it will become a "us vs them" scenario.
I can understand expelling and hate the fact that if you're a victim you shouldn't have to be the ones to help change these people. I can truly understand that feeling. The problem is as a society if you want to grow you have to accept people can do harm, we also have to accept the best way to better people is by helping them. Discarding them doesn't help anyone except sate the proverbial bloodlust. Even then it's not a solution, it just's a bandaid.
.
NealMcCauley
Member
AP article with more statements from the uni president and students.
"I'd be glad if they left. I might even pay the bus fare for them." - David Boren
Coming with the already posted news that they may have destroyed a prized football recruit's interest it's safe to say the members are up shit creek.
"I'd be glad if they left. I might even pay the bus fare for them." - David Boren
Coming with the already posted news that they may have destroyed a prized football recruit's interest it's safe to say the members are up shit creek.
This teaches them a very hard life lesson. Free speech does not mean freedom from public response to your actions. If you commit a crime in a work uniform while near your job then you receive punishment up to and including loss of job and ability to represent that organization in any capacity.
I'm sure another university gladly accepts these hopefully expelled students' money.
Machine
Member
Please tell me more about yourself so I can make some blanket judgments about you based on your likes, dislikes, and affiliations. Perhaps you are in the campus anime club? Student government? The marching band?
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