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Nioh Alpha Demo Feedback

I don't know about this game. I was hoping for something like Bloodborne, an awesome marriage of character action and souls gameplay. However, its instead taken my least favorite aspect of character action, every enemy no matter how weak takes a billion hits, and married it to a less solid and even less forgiving Souls game design.
I'm going to keep trying it. I did get that soulsy accomplishment feeling from clearing the first area, which was nice, but that clunky feeling of the combat isn't going away just yet for me.
 
I don't know about this game. I was hoping for something like Bloodborne, an awesome marriage of character action and souls gameplay. However, its instead taken my least favorite aspect of character action, every enemy no matter how weak takes a billion hits, and married it to a less solid and even less forgiving Souls game design.
I'm going to keep trying it. I did get that soulsy accomplishment feeling from clearing the first area, which was nice, but that clunky feeling of the combat isn't going away just yet for me.
Have you gotten the hang of the Ki Pulse yet? Once you do that and get some skills under your belt, combat will really begin to open up and click. At least it should, it may just not be for you but give it some time.
 
Have you gotten the hang of the Ki Pulse yet? Once you do that and get some skills under your belt, combat will really begin to open up and click. At least it should, it may just not be for you but give it some time.

What is that? I imagine it has something to do with the character flashing sometimes when you do a dodge?
 
What is that? I imagine it has something to do with the character flashing sometimes when you do a dodge?

Oh boy, That's a crucial part of stamina management. Basically, after you do a move, your stamina starts rebuilding in the form of a blue bar. When the bar is full, press R1 to do a Ki Pulse. Alternatively, dodging while in light stance also serves the same function. Look at the stamina bar, when that blue bar turns into green, that's where he pressed R1.
UnrulySillyImperatorangel.gif


EDIT: You know how Bloodborne encouraged aggressive gameplay by allowing you to get back health by attacking back after getting hit? Well, this is the game's version of encouraging agression. It's quite a lot like the active real for guns in Gears of War.
 

kc44135

Member
I like the demo a lot so far. The combat system, is deep, fun, challenging, and rewarding all at the same time, and I like the massive amount of attacks you have in each weapon's moveset. However, I do have a few complaints. Like others have said, weapon durability is really annoying, and the sheer mount of junk loot that you have to pick up and sell/parse through kinda sucks.

One of my biggest complaints by far, though, is that enemies can follow you into boss arenas. Imo, this really, really sucks. In the second level, they put, like, a hundred dudes between the shrine and the boss. Even after you unlock the shortcut, you still have to fight a ridiculous amount of very strong enemies to fight to get to the boss, and they can follow you into the boss arena! You basically have to fight everything between the shrine and the boss every single time you want a rematch with the boss. I don't want the game to be easier, and I like that enemies can chase you pretty much forever. I just strongly feel that they shouldn't be able to follow you into a boss arena. It just leads to unnecessary tedium and frustration, I think.
 
I like the demo a lot so far. The combat system, is deep, fun, challenging, and rewarding all at the same time, and I like the massive amount of attacks you have in each weapon's moveset. However, I do have a few complaints. Like others have said, weapon durability is really annoying, and the sheer mount of junk loot that you have to pick up and sell/parse through kinda sucks.

One of my biggest complaints by far, though, is that enemies can follow you into boss arenas. Imo, this really, really sucks. In the second level, they put, like, a hundred dudes between the shrine and the boss. Even after you unlock the shortcut, you still have to fight a ridiculous amount of very strong enemies to fight to get to the boss, and they can follow you into the boss arena! You basically have to fight everything between the shrine and the boss every single time you want a rematch with the boss. I don't want the game to be easier, and I like that enemies can chase you pretty much forever. I just strongly feel that they shouldn't be able to follow you into a boss arena. It just leads to unnecessary tedium and frustration, I think.
The first boss takes place in a separate place that unlocks after a loading screen, and I don't think any enemies can follow you there.

Perhaps this is a balancing system for bosses too. Some bosses allow for enemies to follow, some don't.

Btw, there are 2 shortcuts to the second boss. The first shortcut is unlocking the gate that leads to the original shrine.

The second is
another shrine that's located to the right of
the boss. There's only 1 of those creepy poison dudes and a horned oni in the middle of the garden that you'll have to deal with if you go through that route.

To unlock that
gate, Go to the left of the shrine of the boss. You should see a fog that spawns a demon enemy. Beat him, walk forward and there should be a chest with the key to the gate.
 
My biggest complaint is that you ramp up so quick in weight if you want the best defensive gear. Like really I finally get something for the torso, it goes 1->41 multiplier and 30% -> 80% weight, putting me out of the blue/green and completely messing with my gameplay style if I wanna use it.

Really in love with everything else so far.

I like that enemies can chase you pretty much forever.

To add to that, they DROP from cliffs! Really makes understanding the map much more important.
 

kc44135

Member
The first boss takes place in a separate place that unlocks after a loading screen, and I don't think any enemies can follow you there.

Perhaps this is a balancing system for bosses too. Some bosses allow for enemies to follow, some don't.

Btw, there are 2 shortcuts to the second boss. The first shortcut is unlocking the gate that leads to the original shrine.

The second is
another shrine that's located to the right of
the boss. There's only 1 of those creepy poison dudes and a horned oni in the middle of the garden that you'll have to deal with if you go through that route.

To unlock that
gate, Go to the left of the shrine of the boss. You should see a fog that spawns a demon enemy. Beat him, walk forward and there should be a chest with the key to the gate.
Thanks for the info, I will try to find that second shortcut. I really don't think it should be like this though. Trying to fight the boss and several Oni is next to impossible. What's more is that the gate at the entrance to the arena actually closes once the fight starts. It's just that you have to get to the "fog" in the middle of the arena for that to happen.

I think that the fact the gate does close behind you means that they didn't intend for enemies to follow you. It almost feels more like a design oversight to me, especially since having a bunch of enemies and a huge boss onscreen basically murders the framerate. I don't have an issue with boss fights that are clearly designed around you fighting multiple enemies at once. This just doesn't feel like something this particular fight was designed (or optimized) for.
 
I beat the first boss, currently on the 2nd one. I beat it once with co-op but I want to beat it solo now. Game is really good, as soon as I got the hang of the combat I was able to breeze past the first stage.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Weapon durability is absolute ass. I'm getting System Shock 2 flashbacks from it.

I am handling in a way that I always keep the 4-5 best pieces of equipment for every slot and pick the worst of those for non-boss areas. I only switch to the best for the bosses and then fix it afterwards.
 
How the fuck does one even play this game, I haven't been so rekt in a game in years.

Interest piqued. Just gotta figure out these controls...
 
First impressions: this game gave me the same feeling as the first time I played demons souls. Wtf are all these stats? Wow I can't move at all if I use all my stamina? Holy shit I can only take 3 hits? How do I hit a guy if they're always blocking? It took me a good while to learn the mechanics and get a grip on how the systems all work but after I did...wow this game is awesome. It's a total souls style game in the best way. They have all the staples with their own twists on things that fit well. I really like the ki pulse system and how it lets you set the pace of combat. The weapon system is pretty cool too. I like that you can get the same gear but with different stats and bonuses. Yokai look awesome and require different strategies than regular ronin and bandits. Also the game looks great and I really like some of the effects. Also I REALLY like how bows work. The anime style shots that decapitate dudes if aimed properly are awesome and it doesn't seem too op since arrows aren't super plentiful.

Feedback: the first thing this game should tell you is how ki pulse works. I spent way to much time getting to the spirit that explains this. The camera could use a bit of work and I'm not sure how I feel about the lock on system. I got used to it but I think it might be better if you faced the enemies you're locked onto. Not sure tho.

I haven't summoned at all so I'm not sure how that goes and I haven't beat the demo yet. I imagine there is a traditional boss fight somewhere that I def want to see. I only made it just past the burning village where there's what appears to be a ship or something.

Over all this seems like a great game and I'm super into it. Team ninja is back after the garbage that was NG 3. I wonder how big the final game will be but I'll certainly be finding on release day.


Edit: So apparently the ship I stopped at contained a boss haha. He was tough. Took me like six tries to beat him. Stamina management is a must. Once you get the hang of it this can be a very fast paced game. I like getting random gifts when dumping stuff at the shrine. Great game so far. I love the level design and how big the levels are. I'll definitely be buying this game. It's awesome.
 
Lords of the Fallen was a souls-a-like thing. That thing was even touted as the western Dark Souls but this game is like an action game that's taking queues from Dark Souls. There are definitely common elements but as a whole, it is it's own thing. Ni-Oh is much more about mobility,action and has much more of a hack-n-slash feel than any From game has had.


Have you played Otogi: Myth of Demons? It's a From game on original Xbox that was most def a hack and slash action game. It still had a high difficulty level but was way more of an action game than the souls series. I've actually been hoping they would bring it back or do something similar since they are done with the souls series. I'd recommend checking it out if you haven't played it. Great game.
 
I did that too. It made me stay away from water completely. I was pretty surprised in the 2nd mission when I didn't die in the water.

Haha I love how that was such a troll. There's a damn log right at the beginning you can use to start in the water but your natural instinct is to take the path... with the 3 human enemies that gank you. That's FROM levels of troll/level design and I applaud Team Ninja for it.
 
I feel like the combat is good when it's 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2, but when enemies start stacking then it feels as though you get close to no interval to reliably attack anyone.

Sure you can bait out individual enemies, but that's not always possible and can sometimes lead to pretty tedious trial and error, ultimately punishing experimentation and leading to a very scripted style of gameplay where you're continually minimizing risk with methodology. I feel that Souls has more room for experimentation, though I find Souls games dull nowadays.

Also, the world / level design is really terrible. If people thought Dark Souls 2 was bad then this game seems abysmal. Does it ever open up and stop feeling linear? I only had time to get to the second Shrine in the demo.
 

BennyBlanco

aka IMurRIVAL69
Spear is completely OP for fighting phantoms. You just sit there and poke them to death from outside their range and the AI never adjusts to it.
 
Have you played Otogi: Myth of Demons? It's a From game on original Xbox that was most def a hack and slash action game. It still had a high difficulty level but was way more of an action game than the souls series. I've actually been hoping they would bring it back or do something similar since they are done with the souls series. I'd recommend checking it out if you haven't played it. Great game.
Sounds interesting but sadly I don't have nor will I likely have any access to an original Xbox.
 

Error

Jealous of the Glory that is Johnny Depp
I feel like the combat is good when it's 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2, but when enemies start stacking then it feels as though you get close to no interval to reliably attack anyone.

Sure you can bait out individual enemies, but that's not always possible and can sometimes lead to pretty tedious trial and error, ultimately punishing experimentation and leading to a very scripted style of gameplay where you're continually minimizing risk with methodology. I feel that Souls has more room for experimentation, though I find Souls games dull nowadays.

Also, the world / level design is really terrible. If people thought Dark Souls 2 was bad then this game seems abysmal. Does it ever open up and stop feeling linear? I only had time to get to the second Shrine in the demo.
Level design is fine it's meant to be linear, the game is mission based. Although the level is linear it has enough branching paths that it doesn't like you are on rails.
 
I feel like the combat is good when it's 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2, but when enemies start stacking then it feels as though you get close to no interval to reliably attack anyone.

Sure you can bait out individual enemies, but that's not always possible and can sometimes lead to pretty tedious trial and error, ultimately punishing experimentation and leading to a very scripted style of gameplay where you're continually minimizing risk with methodology. I feel that Souls has more room for experimentation, though I find Souls games dull nowadays.

Also, the world / level design is really terrible. If people thought Dark Souls 2 was bad then this game seems abysmal. Does it ever open up and stop feeling linear? I only had time to get to the second Shrine in the demo.


Yeah for the multiple enemies. Mechanically, it feels really claustrophobic. The camera zooms in too much, and the enemies are always rushing like nuts. I have nut been able to pull off 1 v 3 without some cheesing yet.
 

Taruranto

Member
Itemization seems kinda off a mess.

Kinda hard to get a feeling of the battle system without a proper tutorial, even DS has it and this one seems to be far more complex.
 
I really don't like the way equipment is handled. Only consumables restore durability so far, and the best way to keep things from breaking is to switch to one of the dozens of equipment drops from enemies. That shit needs to chill. Give me a way to restore stuff at shrines, and design the drop system to not overwhelm you with items. I didn't bother looking at stats and just slapped on the freshest looking thing with an arrow pointing up. Why bother getting to know stats when I already have an encyclopedia of armor, swords, spears, and axes. The game encourages you to be methodical in just about every other aspect, so why is this system so hectic. Everything else is pretty much perfect. This game is so cool.

(P.S. Anyone else having trouble with the low sword stance combo ender with Toward + X? I keep getting a forward dash. Anything I can do to get that command to work more often?)
 

Akainu

Member
Didn't get that far in but i like it so far. Man that backwave ability is godsend. If the other abilities are anything like it. I'm thinking they need to be the first things you learn immediately. Aggro three enemies at once like twice and kicked their asses like a boss.
 
Yeah for the multiple enemies. Mechanically, it feels really claustrophobic. The camera zooms in too much, and the enemies are always rushing like nuts. I have nut been able to pull off 1 v 3 without some cheesing yet.

I've killed a few groups of 3+ with an axe (because they can't stun you out of the animation) but it feels pretty dumb. The combat stops feeling skillful and just feels like dumb luck with higher enemy numbers. The more enemies on screen the less reliably can you read their actions and make judgments based on stamina bars etc. As you say, it ends up being safer just to cheese... especially when cheesing enemies isn't difficult. Just run back till they stop chasing you then re-agro the last one that starts walking back and you can fight one on one... repeat until dead, it just isn't much fun.

In contrast, games like Ninja Gaiden much better supported large scale combat. It's a different game, of course, but it felt hard yet featured the mechanics to make those large scale fights managable, and in turn, it didn'nt need to feature means to circumvent the difficulty either. Ultimately, making Ninja Gaiden a much better game that was harder, for the right reasons.

Dark Souls also supported larger scales fights better, ironically, because most of the enemies grouped together tend to be different types of enemies. So the interplay between different attack patterns provided you with different windows of opportunity from one enemy to another. For instance, it might be 1 vs 3 on Souls, but I know I can rush the archer first. If I rush an archer on Nioh, he pulls out a sword, with which he has equal efficacy as his sword-wielding comrades. Then you're fighting multiple enemies who are all trying to get into the exact same range using the exact same path finding to fight you, sometimes they even seem to mirror each others actions. It just creates a lot of overlap where they cover each others vulnerabilities very naturally.

Ultimately I feel that Nioh is punishing, but just like Souls most of the difficulty is circumvent-able. It's overly focused on punishment rather than designing a game around mechanical difficulty and forcing tight execution. I think that's a shame...

I also don't think a quick time event being added to the sword gameplay saves the experience. It's a neat addition but it hardly changes anything. It makes the game marginally more execution heavy, but I'm not sure if that's good or bad. I think one of the reasons for Soul's popularity is its 'easy to play tough to master' fundamnetals, because at a basic level Souls is a very very simple game. Nioh feels over-complicated and personally I feel that the Ki Pulse mechanic is very superficial.

It's ironic that it features aspects like that, which 'add depth to the combat' but then it doesn't feature as tight hitboxes and hurtboxes as Souls, and the attacks follow entirely pre-set animations. You can't control the trajectory of a blow with the camera (like you can on Souls). In many regards it's really primitive by comparison, and I really do not feel that a quick time event integrated to the stamina system escapes those issues.
 
Level design is fine it's meant to be linear, the game is mission based. Although the level is linear it has enough branching paths that it doesn't like you are on rails.

Like the other poster said, I feel that it feels a bit claustrophobic, I also feel that the looting and exploration aspects do not necessarily suit the games linearity. It's caught between a character action game, and something like Dark Souls. The lack of linearity and opportunity to experiment is part of what forgives the games punishing nature, as if something doesn't work, you can explore elsewhere, whereas here, you're forced onto the same path. It just doesn't feel as intelligently designed, and that's coming from someone that isn't even a big fan of the Souls games anymore.
 
Just finished my second playthrough using different weapons and stances than my first. I love exploring the combat system in this game, it's so fun. I can see doing a third now too. I didn't expect it but hammer high stance is really awesome, high risk but high reward.
 

VinFTW

Member
Its very hard.

But, it's no harder than NGB or NG2 to me.

It's punishing and rewarding. My only complaints are: tutorials. I had to figure out KI pulse by myself after a few hours.

The lock on is probably the worst I've ever used in an action game.

Other than that, I like it.
 

TLZ

Banned
Loving the fps so far. 30fps can go away.

EDIT: I actually went and died like 4 times before I even realized I had a weapon I could equip....

Will still try finishing off the first enemy with bare hands though!
 

Jawmuncher

Member
Durability to me needs the most work. I shouldn't get punished for being stuck on a boss. Dark Souls if you get stuck on a boss, a quick farm and going to the blacksmith to repair is all you need. Here you end up just running through all your items and have to either equip weaker Gear or going back to farming other items.
It makes being stuck on a boss more frustrating than fun for overcoming it with that added stuff to deal with.
 
Demo feedback?

change the game name..

Neo?

Can't wait to see the game run on Neo, honestly.

Loving the game so far. Glad it's its own thing.

I'd definitely like to see the weapon degradation tuned down a bit. I don't mind needing to switch weapons, but it just feels like it happens too quickly. Am I not supposed to feel attached to my weapon?
 

MODEYV3

Banned
Here are some things I'd like to see changed/adjusted.

  • The frame rate is currently all over the place. I like that you get to choose between frame rate and better IQ, but please get the "action mode" to a more consistent 60.
  • Sometimes it's difficult to see the enemy you're attacking in front of you. Adjust the camera so this isn't the case.
  • A way to repair your equipment at shrines would be nice. While I haven't run into a shortage of repair materials in the alpha, it could be provided at a cost at least.
  • Animations are a little stiff. I would love to see them polished up a bit before release. Giving them more fluidity will just feel and look better overall and add to the joy of combat.
  • If I throw a rock at an enemy to separate them from a group, I don't expect it to aggro the others. There needs to be consistency here, otherwise it feels more like a roll of the dice than a strategic move.
  • The heal button can be unresponsive at times. I've found myself annoyed that pressing "up" on the d-pad has sometimes made me a sitting duck instead of reacting appropriately. A mechanic this crucial should not be dodgy.
  • Tone it down just a tad on the loot. I get that it's tied into using it as fodder to get consumables, but sitting at the shrine rummaging through a bunch of useless shit to sell breaks the pace of the game and gets tedious. Less loot, consumable rewards for less; just balance it.

I'm loving the game despite all of this.

I agree with all of this, you should send it to their feedback page.
 
Didn't have any problem with durability once I began offering stuff at the shrine. since I was getting whetstones left and right. They REALLY need to explain that since it can take a while for you to get your first item.
Also, correct me if I'm mistaken, but you can only get your 'souls' back once in two deaths? I had a second death with more currency trying to get a small amount back, and didn't see the prompt anywhere. Set me back about 5 levels.
 
I'm having some trouble executing the combo moves. The forward X move at the end of a low stance katana combo. Having so much trouble getting it to go off.
 

Sushi Nao

Member
THIS.

The game encourages stance changes with light geared primarily for hit-and-run style attacks, medium for the balance and mostly defense, and hard for the slow-but-hard hitting attacks.

OH!

This post actually made me realizing what I had been missing from the combat system. I have to equip some more weapons.
 
Yeah I really disagree with people who want the 0 stamina punish removed. DS3's stamina management system is so lenient that it really ends up being a detriment to the balance of the game. Part of the reason the pvp is so busted right now is that people can just chain roll through their entire stamina bar, and continue rolling even after it's been fully depleted with little punishment for doing so.
 
Spent some time trying to shake my Souls-series tendencies and had an easier time today. Managed to beat the ship boss first try. Felt powerful. Died at the first enemy on the second stage. Felt weak again.
 

VariantX

Member
I'd also like to be able to throw stones to create noise to draw a target away from somewhere so I can slip through and avoid a fight. I don't think you can aim stones, just throw them at targets you're locked on to.
 

Warewolf

Member
Yeah, I am fine with the stamina management. As noted, enemies have to deal with the same thing and it can work to your advantage. That should remain as-is and is a neat as hell system.

It's really important to make this point, if you are going to compare Nioh directly to the souls games, which I don't think is an ideal comparison to begin with, this is a huge differentiator. Managing and exploiting your enemies stamina becomes a massive part of the moment to moment tactical decision making being asked of you and once you really start playing with that the combat it takes on a new feel that is much more aggressive than a typical battle in one of the FromSoftware games.

It's a great system.
 
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