Support NeoGAF

[SlimySnake]

Yup

There's of course a limit to blame everything on lazy devs, I mean ,UE5 did come in hot too, I won't fully be onboard with everything Tim said, but yes, there's way to make sure your game performs good, but Epic also just made a showcase that they cut down 68%, sixty-height percent of Fortnite's shaders. So... maybe not everything was optimal there.

But when script kiddies fix your game, I cannot think of a bigger shame for the huge team of programmers and graphic engineers. They need to lower their head in shame. Or whatever their tradition for unfathomable shame is

Spoiler

j/k of course

FF7 rebirth is the biggest fucking slap in the face I've seen in a while from the mod community to a big publisher. I think we have to go back to Nier automata's fix by Kaldaien, which is another Square Enix title.

Also one of my pet peeve, if you couldn't bother to enable an ultrawide toggle and peoples add support for it within 2 hours of the game's launch with an hex edit, lazy as fuck too. You can't convince me that with all these huge team of programmers working on the game for years, that nobody bothered to spend a couple of hours implementing it, was a cost reason. But its getting rarer these days that its not supported so at least there's that.

Indies have excuses, they're basically learning to make games with freaking youtube videos or online courses. Major publishers have no excuses.

Regarding indies, I have brought this up several times but Expedition 33 started off with one programmer in 2020. he then hired 3 more. So this team of 4 programmers were able to upgrade their build to UE5.4 and get the CPU upgrades in. That allowed them to ship the game at 1080p 60 fps on base consoles. one of the first UE5 games. meanwhile Stalker devs with their 300 person teams still havent released their UE5.5 patch that they promised over a year ago since the game was built on UE5.1 and was extremely CPU bound. Same goes for Avowed. Came out just 2 months before Expedition 33, a year after UE5.4 was released, shipped on UE5.3 and was extremely CPU bound in cities.

At the end of the day, its laziness. poor work ethic. lack of pride in your own work. Back in the day, devs had to figure out things themselves. I remember ND being extremely harsh on themselves for not figuring out how to ship Uncharted 1 without tearing. Then openly gave credit to GG for showing them how easy it was to implement vsync. Now, you have epic releasing these massive performance improvements (They have doubled the performance of hardware RT and improved CPU performance by 50%) and devs are like nah, we are good.

DF said that the FF7 Rebirth team literally stripped out the screenspace shadows functionality that already existed in the engine. Why? Why are they so stupid. Capcom needs Path tracing to get proper self shadows on faces. And they are the good ones. KojiPro tech director literally said he didnt add anything next gen because PS5 isnt a big leap over PS4. Like literally admitting he didnt even try. 6 years, 100x faster SSD, 7x faster CPU, 8x faster GPU, ray tracing and mesh shader support, brand new Cerny IO, and didnt add anything new. Pure laziness.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Regarding indies, I have brought this up several times but Expedition 33 started off with one programmer in 2020. he then hired 3 more. So this team of 4 programmers were able to upgrade their build to UE5.4 and get the CPU upgrades in. That allowed them to ship the game at 1080p 60 fps on base consoles. one of the first UE5 games. meanwhile Stalker devs with their 300 person teams still havent released their UE5.5 patch that they promised over a year ago since the game was built on UE5.1 and was extremely CPU bound. Same goes for Avowed. Came out just 2 months before Expedition 33, a year after UE5.4 was released, shipped on UE5.3 and was extremely CPU bound in cities.

At the end of the day, its laziness. poor work ethic. lack of pride in your own work. Back in the day, devs had to figure out things themselves. I remember ND being extremely harsh on themselves for not figuring out how to ship Uncharted 1 without tearing. Then openly gave credit to GG for showing them how easy it was to implement vsync. Now, you have epic releasing these massive performance improvements (They have doubled the performance of hardware RT and improved CPU performance by 50%) and devs are like nah, we are good.

DF said that the FF7 Rebirth team literally stripped out the screenspace shadows functionality that already existed in the engine. Why? Why are they so stupid. Capcom needs Path tracing to get proper self shadows on faces. And they are the good ones. KojiPro tech director literally said he didnt add anything next gen because PS5 isnt a big leap over PS4. Like literally admitting he didnt even try. 6 years, 100x faster SSD, 7x faster CPU, 8x faster GPU, ray tracing and mesh shader support, brand new Cerny IO, and didnt add anything new. Pure laziness.

I've given up on Japan for graphic tech a while ago. It's not just them of course but they are some of the worse.

FF7 rebirth team stripping out screenspace shadows is mind boggling. Someone should find the graphic engineer from the credits and interview him.

 

[SlimySnake]

From twitter.

Just remarkable.

 

[SlimySnake]

And Amazon just confirmed that Tomb Raider Catalyst, the next mainline Tomb Raider game from Crystal Dynamics has been delayed to 2028. This game has been in development since Avengers came out in September of 2020. So 8 year dev time.

I think MS is right to some extent. You cannot take this long to make games and then not expect the publisher to shut down studios if the game fails to sell. Ubisoft said something similar about how they need to get games out faster. this studio is based out of silicon valley i believe so i wouldnt be surprised if their yearly budget is somewhere around $50 million. If not more. Even if they sell 5 million units, they would still be $50 million short of the $400 million budget.

Devs have to figure out how to make games faster. The last Tomb Raider trilogy was done in 8 years just last gen. I just dont why devs continue to stab themselves in the back like this. UE5 has made asset creation and level generation a breeze. Just wtf is taking 8 years? thats how long it took rockstar to make GTA6.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Devs have to figure out how to make games faster.

Neon Giant will have to make a class to the industry if they ever unveil their methods for No Law.

The entirety of The Ascent was done with 4 artists and is a looker. Already a red flag that most projects are absurd with their resources dedicated to >100 artists.

Now they're building a massive open world cyberpunk city with some of the best visuals with a team of 25 again? I guess not that many more artists than the Ascent? Madness

Everything is in the tools. The graphic engines are the baseline, devs have forgotten that spending time making the tools for a better workflow will get you to destination much more faster and with less resources than throwing 400 artists at the problem like most studios are doing now.

If my boss doesn't let me automatize a CAD drawing at an engineering job, I'll continue drawing line by line like a retard. If I spend months working on a parametric drawing solution, I'll then be able to make 7 drawings in the time it took to make 1 more.

When id tech talked about dark ages, they talked about keeping in control the artists on shader usage for example. That's also one aspect of The Ascent that is super optimized. When most studios probably end up outputting is a huge fucking mess of assets, artists creating assets for every little fucking details, rather than work from a pool that would get 85% of the job done.

 

[Gonzito]

And Amazon just confirmed that Tomb Raider Catalyst, the next mainline Tomb Raider game from Crystal Dynamics has been delayed to 2028. This game has been in development since Avengers came out in September of 2020. So 8 year dev time.

I think MS is right to some extent. You cannot take this long to make games and then not expect the publisher to shut down studios if the game fails to sell. Ubisoft said something similar about how they need to get games out faster. this studio is based out of silicon valley i believe so i wouldnt be surprised if their yearly budget is somewhere around $50 million. If not more. Even if they sell 5 million units, they would still be $50 million short of the $400 million budget.

Devs have to figure out how to make games faster. The last Tomb Raider trilogy was done in 8 years just last gen. I just dont why devs continue to stab themselves in the back like this. UE5 has made asset creation and level generation a breeze. Just wtf is taking 8 years? thats how long it took rockstar to make GTA6.

One year delay is fucking insane man

Edit: I did confuse Catalyst with Legacy of Atlantis. I thought it was Atlantis that got delayed for a year

 

[Alex11]

And Amazon just confirmed that Tomb Raider Catalyst, the next mainline Tomb Raider game from Crystal Dynamics has been delayed to 2028. This game has been in development since Avengers came out in September of 2020. So 8 year dev time.

I think MS is right to some extent. You cannot take this long to make games and then not expect the publisher to shut down studios if the game fails to sell. Ubisoft said something similar about how they need to get games out faster. this studio is based out of silicon valley i believe so i wouldnt be surprised if their yearly budget is somewhere around $50 million. If not more. Even if they sell 5 million units, they would still be $50 million short of the $400 million budget.

Devs have to figure out how to make games faster. The last Tomb Raider trilogy was done in 8 years just last gen. I just dont why devs continue to stab themselves in the back like this. UE5 has made asset creation and level generation a breeze. Just wtf is taking 8 years? thats how long it took rockstar to make GTA6.

That sounds sad, I think 6 of those 8 years were just them fucking around making this "unify" TR bullshit. And also the fact that I read that it's open world - as if this is what TR actually needed.

Damn, just remembered when TR was annually and the 1st title had cutting edge visuals.

 

[Represent.]

The only way to make games faster is to make them shorter. End of story. We do not need fucking 20+ hour games. Give me a 3-5 hour game, make it hella replayable, or, how about, just make it an amazing 3-5 hour experience. End of story.

Its ridiculous. Im playing 007, I'm like 20+ hours into it and still have more missions left. Jesus, just end the damn game. Id rather have it be 1/3rd the length and get a sequel in 2-3 years. instead of another 7 YEAR wait for another 20 hour experience. WTF.

You're all just going to have to accept the idea of an amazing 3-5 hour single player experience for 20-40 bucks.

007 does NOT need to be fucking 25 hours.

 

[archangelmorph]

And Amazon just confirmed that Tomb Raider Catalyst, the next mainline Tomb Raider game from Crystal Dynamics has been delayed to 2028. This game has been in development since Avengers came out in September of 2020. So 8 year dev time.

I think MS is right to some extent. You cannot take this long to make games and then not expect the publisher to shut down studios if the game fails to sell. Ubisoft said something similar about how they need to get games out faster. this studio is based out of silicon valley i believe so i wouldnt be surprised if their yearly budget is somewhere around $50 million. If not more. Even if they sell 5 million units, they would still be $50 million short of the $400 million budget.

Devs have to figure out how to make games faster. The last Tomb Raider trilogy was done in 8 years just last gen. I just dont why devs continue to stab themselves in the back like this. UE5 has made asset creation and level generation a breeze. Just wtf is taking 8 years? thats how long it took rockstar to make GTA6.

LOL!

I agreed with everything right up until that last sentence.

Bruv you do know GTAV came out on the PS3?

GTA has been in development (in some shape or form) for A LOT longer than 8 years.

Granted they've been very lucky with the success of GTAV & GTA Online that most,
if not all of that dev time has been completely subsidised by ongoing revenues.

 

[SlimySnake]

LOL!

I agreed with everything right up until that last sentence.

Bruv you do know GTAV came out on the PS3?

GTA has been in development (in some shape or form) for A LOT longer than 8 years.

Granted they've been very lucky with the success of GTAV & GTA Online that most,
if not all of that dev time has been completely subsidised by ongoing revenues.

Jason said that all 7 studios at Rockstar, some 3,000 devs shifted to working solely on RDR2 after shipping GTA5. yes, they had some devs on GTA online but they famously cut DLC heists and other single player content Dan Houser wanted to do because they all shifted to RDR2. Im sure a few devs stuck around to get GTA6 ready for production as soon as RDR2 shipped but the studios were basically chained to RDR2 until 2018.

 

[archangelmorph]

The only way to make games faster is to make them shorter. End of story. We do not need fucking 20+ hour games. Give me a 3-5 hour game, make it hella replayable, or, how about, just make it an amazing 3-5 hour experience. End of story.

Its ridiculous. Im playing 007, I'm like 20+ hours into it and still have more missions left. Jesus, just end the damn game. Id rather have it be 1/3rd the length and get a sequel in 2-3 years. instead of another 7 YEAR wait for another 20 hour experience. WTF.

You're all just going to have to accept the idea of an amazing 3-5 hour single player experience for 20-40 bucks.

007 does NOT need to be fucking 25 hours.

$20-40 for 3-5 hours are not economics the market will bear.

Also the wider problem is one of tech + consumer VFX scope creep.

Years will be spent on building out advanced tools and pipelines and content to build every minutae of detailed fidelity, simulation and interactivity.

Take e.g. Horizon. A random bird probably took 6 months, to handle scoping > concepting > design > modelling > rigging > animating > collision and physics > behavioural simulation > polish + optimisation.

Something entirely cosmetic, irrelevant to gameplay and entirely superficial to the play experience beyond simply a marginal addition to world immersion and realism.

Now scale this across everything.

Bodies of water (seas, rivers, streams, puddles), fire, vegetation, vast varieties of flora and fauna across varied game locales, that themselves demand variety.

Even inanimate objects, props, surfaces etc demand more realism (glass simulations, paper on desks reacting to bullets, plaster wallets, wooden beams etc etc).

Complexity simply continues to explode here.

Tim Sweeney has been pushing for years to encourage more and more code and asset sharing and this is fundamentally vital to solve for this type of thing as fidelity expectations continue to rise.

It literally makes no sense for every studio to have to re-create all this stuff again and again across different games when dealing with the same either exact real locales or even equivalent categories of fictional ones.

Commoditised content. AI content generation. And industry wide engine and tech consolidation is how games get made faster.

Just don't complain when you start to see a lot more of "hang on, I've seen that cactus and bug before…"

 

[Abysse]

Sharing is caring.

Based team.

XML FTW!

 

[archangelmorph]

Jason said that all 7 studios at Rockstar, some 3,000 devs shifted to working solely on RDR2 after shipping GTA5. yes, they had some devs on GTA online but they famously cut DLC heists and other single player content Dan Houser wanted to do because they all shifted to RDR2. Im sure a few devs stuck around to get GTA6 ready for production as soon as RDR2 shipped but the studios were basically chained to RDR2 until 2018.

Base tech would have been started years ago.

Granted much of it shared from GTA into RDR2 and back (expanded into GTA6), but that's where much of the complexity would be, besides content.

 

[SlimySnake]

The only way to make games faster is to make them shorter. End of story. We do not need fucking 20+ hour games. Give me a 3-5 hour game, make it hella replayable, or, how about, just make it an amazing 3-5 hour experience. End of story.

Its ridiculous. Im playing 007, I'm like 20+ hours into it and still have more missions left. Jesus, just end the damn game. Id rather have it be 1/3rd the length and get a sequel in 2-3 years. instead of another 7 YEAR wait for another 20 hour experience. WTF.

You're all just going to have to accept the idea of an amazing 3-5 hour single player experience for 20-40 bucks.

007 does NOT need to be fucking 25 hours.

3-4 hours is nuts. I think 15 hours is a sweet spot for single player games. 20 hours if you are an open world with side content.

Mass Effect 2 is one of the best RPGs ever made and you can finish it in 20 hours. developers have gone full retard making every RPG 100 hours. Every open world 50 hours. And then they take 5-7 years to make them.

 

[Bitstream]

The only way to make games faster is to make them shorter. End of story. We do not need fucking 20+ hour games. Give me a 3-5 hour game, make it hella replayable, or, how about, just make it an amazing 3-5 hour experience. End of story.

Its ridiculous. Im playing 007, I'm like 20+ hours into it and still have more missions left. Jesus, just end the damn game. Id rather have it be 1/3rd the length and get a sequel in 2-3 years. instead of another 7 YEAR wait for another 20 hour experience. WTF.

You're all just going to have to accept the idea of an amazing 3-5 hour single player experience for 20-40 bucks.

007 does NOT need to be fucking 25 hours.

3-4 hours is nuts. I think 15 hours is a sweet spot for single player games. 20 hours if you are an open world with side content.

Mass Effect 2 is one of the best RPGs ever made and you can finish it in 20 hours. developers have gone full retard making every RPG 100 hours. Every open world 50 hours. And then they take 5-7 years to make them.

Completely agreed. Would much rather have a tightly paced, under 20 hour game and a sequel in a few years than one game a decade that takes me a year to slog through.

 

[geary]

3-4 hours is nuts. I think 15 hours is a sweet spot for single player games. 20 hours if you are an open world with side content.

Mass Effect 2 is one of the best RPGs ever made and you can finish it in 20 hours. developers have gone full retard making every RPG 100 hours. Every open world 50 hours. And then they take 5-7 years to make them.

That ship has sailed. It's time for a complete mindset reset of the gaming industry and its customers.

People won't pay $70 for a 15-hour game (with few exceptions), and developers won't sell a AAA title they've invested significant graphical effort into for $30–$40, even if the game is linear. Why hasn't Capcom priced RE9 at $40, considering it's a 10–15 hour game?

 

[H . R . 2]

btw
Wolverine Actor
Liam McIntyre

 

[SlimySnake]

That ship has sailed. It's time for a complete mindset reset of the gaming industry and its customers.

People won't pay $70 for a 15-hour game (with few exceptions), and developers won't sell a AAA title they've invested significant graphical effort into for $30–$40, even if the game is linear. Why hasn't Capcom priced RE9 at $40, considering it's a 10–15 hour game?

Well re9 sold millions despite being that long. If that can be the exception then surely Tomb Raider can be as well.

James Bond also sold really well and it was 15-20 hours. I think Wolverine being 15 hours is perfect for a game like that.

 

[r4vio981]

Black Flag is the best looking game ive seen this gen, and its open world. They really did a great job rebuilding the graphics.

 

[Bojji]

btw
Wolverine Actor
Liam McIntyre

Yeah, he looked familiar...

 

[OverHeat]

 

[alloush]

btw
Wolverine Actor
Liam McIntyre

Liam, my guy from Spartacus. People didn't recognize him in Wolverine? The second I saw the game I was like yeah that's my boi, Spartacus.

 

[Represent.]

Phenomenal

 

[SlimySnake]

So Schrier was right and Laufey is coming out in February. That means a 4 year dev cycle. Not bad. Its actually shorter than Ragnorak's which was 4 years and six months. I wonder if that means this game is also cross Gen with ps4.

 

[GymWolf]

Honest opinion, what beach look better between this and bf?

I'm kinda partial to halo right now...i think bf looks the best inside cities.

Not playing the game yet.

 

[GymWolf]

So Schrier was right and Laufey is coming out in February. That means a 4 year dev cycle. Not bad. Its actually shorter than Ragnorak's which was 4 years and six months. I wonder if that means this game is also cross Gen with ps4.

Does it even matter? We know that it doesnt look too hot even if it's nextgen only.

 

[geary]

So Schrier was right and Laufey is coming out in February. That means a 4 year dev cycle. Not bad. Its actually shorter than Ragnorak's which was 4 years and six months. I wonder if that means this game is also cross Gen with ps4.

It's not just 4 years, it's more. They were already working on Laufey before Ragnarok was released. The main actress mentioned she was approached about Laufey after the first GoW came out, so I believe they began working on it maybe 1–2 years later.

 

[Gonzito]

The game looks so much better without Film Grain and Chromatic aberration lol

Artistic intent my ass

 

[dgrdsv]

The game looks so much better without Film Grain and Chromatic aberration lol

Artistic intent my ass

Still not a fan of how Lumen does GI, even with HWRT in this case. Everything is either glowing or overly dark for no apparent reason.

 

[Xtib81]

So Schrier was right and Laufey is coming out in February. That means a 4 year dev cycle. Not bad. Its actually shorter than Ragnorak's which was 4 years and six months. I wonder if that means this game is also cross Gen with ps4.

It definitely doesn't look like a proper next gen GOW.
It's gonna be to GOW what Miles morales was to Spiderman.

 

[Gonzito]

Halo Campaign Evolved

Textures up close look really good

I think this is one of the best water rendering I have seen in a videogame. Its hard to show in pictures but in motion it looks extremely realistic

 

[Critical Hit]

Sad news

Path tracing in 007 First Light is delayed and risks not coming out together

https://en.gamegpu.com/news/igry/trassirovka-puti-v-007-first-light-zaderzhivaetsya-i-riskuet-ne-vyjti-sovsem

 

[Gonzito]

Sad news

https://en.gamegpu.com/news/igry/trassirovka-puti-v-007-first-light-zaderzhivaetsya-i-riskuet-ne-vyjti-sovsem

This is fucking ridiculous, what a joke

 

[viveks86]

Sad news

https://en.gamegpu.com/news/igry/trassirovka-puti-v-007-first-light-zaderzhivaetsya-i-riskuet-ne-vyjti-sovsem

Sad if true, but I'm not sure how much this is trustworthy. Literally no sourcing or even claims of insider knowledge.

"Mid-July has passed"
"No word from dev"
"It is delayed… or canceled"

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Well re9 sold millions despite being that long. If that can be the exception then surely Tomb Raider can be as well.

James Bond also sold really well and it was 15-20 hours. I think Wolverine being 15 hours is perfect for a game like that.

How did the Tomb Raider reboot do? I don't think this IP is as hot as Resident Evil.

 

[SlimySnake]

It's not just 4 years, it's more. They were already working on Laufey before Ragnarok was released. The main actress mentioned she was approached about Laufey after the first GoW came out, so I believe they began working on it maybe 1–2 years later.

Allanah Pearce said that only 4 writers worked on the game until 2022 when ragnorak shipped and others came on board. The real development only started then,

 

[SlimySnake]

How did the Tomb Raider reboot do? I don't think this IP is as hot as Resident Evil.

It did ok. Sold 3.5 million in a few weeks but square was like it didn't meet our expectations. They then gave the sequel to Ms as an exclusive and that killed its sales as well.

But i think the ip is strong enough to pull 3-4 million sales in the first month or so. Problem is that if it takes 8 years, they would need 10 million just to break even.

 

[Luipadre]

HLL vietnam beta is on UE5. They finally fixed the graphical bugs and the abysmal performance from the may beta. It looks and runs beautifully. Supports HW lumen, the vegetation is really nice and the way the lighting and shadows looks on them is also really good. Loving the game

 

[Critical Hit]

but I'm not sure how much this is trustworthy

Yep. It was just the first link that came up when I searched for "007 path tracing when" on Google.

 

[OverHeat]

Honest opinion, what beach look better between this and bf?

I'm kinda partial to halo right now...i think bf looks the best inside cities.

Not playing the game yet.

Halo because of the interaction you can have with the water

 

[coachmcguirk91]

So Schrier was right and Laufey is coming out in February. That means a 4 year dev cycle. Not bad. Its actually shorter than Ragnorak's which was 4 years and six months. I wonder if that means this game is also cross Gen with ps4.

Ragnarok was also developed in the middle of covid. SSM is extremely efficient for the size of their games. Now they are big enough for two full teams. There should be a GOW game every 2-3 years for the next 10 years, whether its a mainline game or a remake. Studio is going to print money

 

[Buggy Loop]

Fornite's shaders cut down by 68%




Epic listened to Tim Sweeney's advice to optimize shaders

 

[Balducci30]

All of these look good to me.

The purple one is ugly and the doctor is mid, but the rest of the trailer looked good and CG'ish.

Yeah I don't get it that trailer looks good

 

[Insane Metal]

HLL vietnam beta is on UE5. They finally fixed the graphical bugs and the abysmal performance from the may beta. It looks and runs beautifully. Supports HW lumen, the vegetation is really nice and the way the lighting and shadows looks on them is also really good. Loving the game

Looking good, is the game good?

 

[Luipadre]

Looking good, is the game good?

Yes im loving it. First beta in may was dogshit, i even removed it from wishlist, but somehow they did a miracle. Games gfx was buggy as hell, it was ugly and ran so badly with stutters. Now its beautiful and smooth af

 

[Insane Metal]

Yes im loving it. First beta in may was dogshit, i even removed it from wishlist, but somehow they did a miracle. Games gfx was buggy as hell, it was ugly and ran so badly with stutters. Now its beautiful and smooth af

From what it seems the game is more focused in tactical gameplay than BF and COD, right

 

[Senua]

Halo Campaign Evolved

Textures up close look really good





I think this is one of the best water rendering I have seen in a videogame. Its hard to show in pictures but in motion it looks extremely realistic

Looks absolutely excellent

 

[Luipadre]

From what it seems the game is more focused in tactical gameplay than BF and COD, right

Its a milsim. You can try it on steam, open beta up for 2 more days. Its not cod or BF at all.

 

[Abysse]

 

[Superposition]

Sad news

https://en.gamegpu.com/news/igry/trassirovka-puti-v-007-first-light-zaderzhivaetsya-i-riskuet-ne-vyjti-sovsem