Cool. Hundreds of people tried this "vaporware" saturday.
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Oculus Doesn't Know How To Build a VR Game Controller Yet
- Thread starter mocoworm
- Start date
Cool. Hundreds of people tried this "vaporware" saturday.
Refreshment.01
Member
Not need to attack the person sean, just respond to his points or not. No need for qualifiers or acting defensive.
On topic: There should be multiple controllers for different scenarios or situations. In some cases it could work even with a traditional dual analog controller.
For the " presence" type of experiences, i think Sony or Occulus, should aim low until full skeletal tracking with a camera is fast enough. For now just concentrate in the head/finger tracking and very basic feet detection.
For the experience that requires simulated walking was thinking in something like Nintendo Balance Board with higher resolution but with way lower profile (to avoid tripping) and just settle to simulate walking by walking in place. The thing would be dandy if it detected feet orientation and some other basic stances like the Nintendo BB for example leaning, crouching, etc. In the virtual reality have a very unintrusive HUD representation of the margins of the "matt" so the user has an idea where he's standing, a very distinct texture to the surface would also help with this.
Simulating finger movements. Had a very rough idea for some time. A wearable glove type device with a grip sensor object in the palms (a sphere maybe?), that will also help to simulate resistance. Some type of sensors in the finger tips and joints. The grip sensor is also capable of detecting proximity as well as what finger touches its surface. It's a very rough idea but maybe it worths something.
neodeano
Member
Here's one way of doing it, stick some joysticks to the end of a 'motion capture suit'. This isn't really that relevant considering its five years ago and seemingly hasn't gone anywhere, nor do most of us want to put on a mechanical suit...but it was fun to watch - just putting it out there! (Full disclosure: I'm the author of the article, and Sussex Uni alumnus).
It's kind of hard to refute your "evidence" when it basically boils down to "look at how awesome I am". Seriously, critical mass of information? That's laughable.
The closest thing to an actual argument you have made is, as I understand it, that only companies and/or people who have previously made fundamental hardware inventions are capable of doing so again. Why this is inherently false shouldn't need to be explained.
A) you look at your keyboard when you type?
B)
A) Some do. Some also need to at least look at their keyboard to readjust their hands and/or for some of the buttons.
B) God that looks horrible. And probably wouldn't help if you weren't familiar with the layout.
But he has the same information everybody else has, dude.
That, of course, ignores that some of us have information that not everybody else has
I_D
Member
Seems like a lot of people missed the point.
The developers want "your hands inside the game so you can use them the way you would in the real world."
A controller isn't gonna cut it. They need gloves or some kind of finger-tracker.
Ironically, I think using your hands like in real life would actually be pretty limiting, gameplay-wise. It'd be really hard to pull off awesome moves if you actually had to pull them off with your real hands. A controller is the best option.
The developers want "your hands inside the game so you can use them the way you would in the real world."
A controller isn't gonna cut it. They need gloves or some kind of finger-tracker.
Ironically, I think using your hands like in real life would actually be pretty limiting, gameplay-wise. It'd be really hard to pull off awesome moves if you actually had to pull them off with your real hands. A controller is the best option.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
I disagree that that's what developers want (at least if you're talking about Oculus devs), for the same reasons you stated -- a pair of gloves is great for holding your hand up and being impressed by the mm precise finger tracking, but it isn't a convenient or flexible input method (and probably not affordable right now either). I think they're just looking for something that lets your avatar match your arm position with next to no latency. Whatever solution they find, I've no doubt it'll be a solid piece of plastic with buttons and joysticks. The illusion of limited finger tracking to, say, pick something up, can be replicated by pinching buttons and triggers.
Their problem is eliminating anything that breaks the feeling of presence. One of the first things people do when they put the rift on is reach out to try and touch something. Letting them to do that (albeit without any actual touch feedback) helps keep the illusion going, maintaining presence.
Chance Hale
Member
Anyone get their hands on the new stem controllers yet?
Basically, the holy grail is solving this:
In my experience, one of the first thing people (of any age) do when you put them in VR is try to touch things.
Exactly. And I don't feel like a controller, even a motion controller, is really suitable for this (though it might be the best we can do right now).
There are some great ideas in this thread for VR controllers. Full body tracking and tactile feedback will be essential in the future of VR. But I honestly think that Oculus needs to focus on something simple, fast, precise, and cheap for their first VR controller. Baby steps. I haven't had the pleasure of trying out an Oculus yet, but from what I've seen and read, the single greatest VR control demand at the moment seems to be "hands", including fine finger movements. If Oculus can somehow develop some gloves that are light, fast, and precise, I think that would be a great start, something that can accompany the VR headset and have immediate mass market appeal and applications.
This doesn't make sense.
Arozay
Member
Take your pick.
LumpOfCole
Member
Double Powerglove Action
killatopak
Gold Member
I would prefer something like this but I guess the technology isn't there yet.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Real life can only aspire to be G Gundam.I would prefer something like this but I guess the technology isn't there yet.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Auto-Reply
Member
I would prefer something like this but I guess the technology isn't there yet.
Gipsy Danger controls would add a coop element to it... they should build the entire robot to not break presence, I'd buy it for 300 dollarz!
Liabe Brave
Member
Why do you classify this as a "guess"? The DK2 and Crescent Bay clearly show that's what they're focusing on.
I think literally the only thing suitable for this is a haptic solution. It doesn't matter nearly as much how precise and accurate the hand/finger tracking is: if you don't feel anything when you touch, immersion will fail utterly.
This is why I believe Move, Stem, etc.--not to mention traditional controllers--have been far more effective in VR demonstration than their accuracy would predict: thumbing a stick, pulling a trigger, or pushing a button provide feedback. That contributes greatly to a sense of reality, even if what you're supposedly touching isn't stick- or trigger- or button-shaped. (And even if your virtual hand lags a bit, or suddenly skips to another position.)
If I'm right, a very technically adroit positional system that has no haptics would subjectively feel less good. Even if it beat the pants off the current "kludge" systems in terms of latency, precision, etc.
Because I think it is contrary to what they are ultimately working towards with the headset itself - markerless inside-out positional tracking.
You definitely are correct, and this goes for other peripherals as well like flight sticks and racing wheels.
Alx
Member
I get the impression that Carmack and crew are being too obsessive about latency. While it is important for the headset to avoid motion sickness, it's not as crucial for control. We're not as accurate in our perception of our limbs as we are for our vision, and we have a good "feedback correction" for possible delays between intended and observed motion. You can have people getting motion sickness while playing a FPS, I've never heard of anybody having "control sickness" when playing a game with high latency, at worst it would be compared to being sluggish, walking through molass or being drunk. Which is actually acceptable.
Wanting to make too perfect a product is the best way to never release it, or release it too late.
Wanting to make too perfect a product is the best way to never release it, or release it too late.
I am dissatisfied with the level of tracking in our mod currently and it is entirely because of hardware constraints. We are greatly hopeful that STEM and PrioVR eventually get our tracking to a level where we want it to be, but I'm skeptical. I believe the imprecision of our current tracking technologies takes away from the kind of experience we want to create.
call_kotaku
Member
It does seem like a pretty ideal solution (no camera setup, easy way to warn the user if they're about to run into something, extends to eventual AR applications), but I wonder how far away it is.
I feel like with the speed of phone tech combined with how unexpectedly difficult these problems are it's just as likely to take 2 years as it would take 10.
Lazy Developer
Neo Member
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/PRES_a_00150#.VCFKsxbePZY
Coupled with better tracking and limited held object size I think this could be quite effective.
Coupled with better tracking and limited held object size I think this could be quite effective.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Price I guess?
ScepticMatt
Member
With control, you can't 'cheat' like with time warp. It has to go through the whole pipeline.
As for control latency, it is still quite jarring. Try clapping your hand.
Absolute volume levels and better control of 3D audio.
I think the Move is a good base to build upon, if not use in VR directly.
I can't comment out of experience on the trusty controller and keyboard&mouse, but they can't be unacceptable at least for an enthusiast audience.
It does if VR actually replaces your reality. But this is still in the realm of sci-fi. That's what the other poster is referring to.
they need to ship something next year. If they can't see any technology in the future delivering what they want, then they need to start working out what is 'good enough' for CV1 and then iterate on it. Nobody expects things to be set in stone forever.
I think a move/stem style approach would be enough for a first step, with some combination of buttons/analog sticks/trackball etc for anything beyond gestures.
Stiflers Mom
Banned
Take your pick.
Is that Peter Molyneux in the last picture?
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
A) you look at your keyboard when you type?
B)
I don't, but typos happen, and I definitely press the wrong button sometimes. Also, is a gun operated with a keyboard in real life? No, of course not. What's the point of VR if you're still controlling with a mouse and keyboard? The VR is just a big TV stuck on your face then.
Sony already released the move as their wiimote-alike. Unless they've said they are literally going to release the move as-is for Morpheus, then it is possible they'll use it as a base but improve upon it.
I think there are several parallel control issues.
1) movement. potentially the biggest hurdle to overcome. How do you move within the world without making yourself sick? Whatever happens you're messing with the input your balance system is providing so I don't know what a proper solution would be .
2) gesture tracking. Something like move or STEM would be good here - they are fast and accurate and with move you already have the camera there anyway.So for flailing around with a lightsaber or anything else involving holding an object they should be good. And in lots of games you're holding something.
3) hand/finger tracking. How critical is this? Yes in VR you want to hold your hands up in front of your face and wiggle your virtual fingers. But as an interaction model is it essential at launch, or is it a problem we can solve a little later?
Tbone3336
Gold Member
I am thinking they need to take baby steps, and let the general public use this with standard controllers to begin with, or something similar that is familiar, then as usually happens tech and peoples input eventually coincide to provide a better solution, or at least the path to the best solution moving forward even if the tech is not fully there yet.
One step at a time and eventually a sensible control solution will develop that makes sense I believe. (though currently controllers have not progressed that far in the past 30 years in a relative sense so maybe I am kidding myself thinking a solution will develop with more usage and more input from the general public users).
One step at a time and eventually a sensible control solution will develop that makes sense I believe. (though currently controllers have not progressed that far in the past 30 years in a relative sense so maybe I am kidding myself thinking a solution will develop with more usage and more input from the general public users).
Refreshment.01
Member
Watching the most heated debate in this thread, i most admit both sides make reasonable arguments, most of them not substantiated by hard evidence or facts.
But im surprised randomengine didn't pointed out the fact that VR as we have it now with Sony, Occulus and others got a new vigor with the improvement of technology independent of the VR movement. The rapid acceleration of small screens due to the smartphone adoption or the rapid evolution of MEMS and camera sensors, increasedly adapted after the Wii succes. This allowed the people at Occulus to grab this advancements and adapt them to their needs, VR or Head Mounted Displays after all are a very old concept.
A question some what related since this is the most active VR thread right now. Why do you think a Head Mounted Display such a TMZ hasn't been massivly adopted? i mean a part from price. For me at least a similar device with steroscopic 3D but lighter (a lot lighter) that envolves the player even with no motion sensing would enhance the experience in a lot of games.
But im surprised randomengine didn't pointed out the fact that VR as we have it now with Sony, Occulus and others got a new vigor with the improvement of technology independent of the VR movement. The rapid acceleration of small screens due to the smartphone adoption or the rapid evolution of MEMS and camera sensors, increasedly adapted after the Wii succes. This allowed the people at Occulus to grab this advancements and adapt them to their needs, VR or Head Mounted Displays after all are a very old concept.
A question some what related since this is the most active VR thread right now. Why do you think a Head Mounted Display such a TMZ hasn't been massivly adopted? i mean a part from price. For me at least a similar device with steroscopic 3D but lighter (a lot lighter) that envolves the player even with no motion sensing would enhance the experience in a lot of games.