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Smaller, cheaper, cooler Xbox One processor in development

mocoworm

Member
Smaller, cheaper, cooler Xbox One processor in development + a possible move to DDR4

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-smaller-cheaper-cooler-xbox-one-processor-in-development

Chip designer AMD has developed a smaller, more cost-effective 20nm version of the main processor found in Xbox One, opening the door to a cheaper 'slim' version of the Microsoft console. The news comes from the LinkedIn bio of AMD's senior manager of SOC (system on chip) physical design, as discovered by Mosen from the Beyond3D forums. The entry in question says he "successfully planned and executed the first APU for Microsoft's Xbox One Game Console in 28nm technology and a cost-reduced derivative in 20nm technology."

Technology becomes smaller and more powerful according to the density of transistors crammed onto a piece of silicon, with production processes measured at the nanometre level. Currently, the Xbox One and PS4 processors are fabricated at 28nm, meaning each transistor measures 28 thousand-millionths of a metre. The new chip design shrinks that to 20nm. According to TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company) - the factory that physically makes the Xbox One and PS4 processors - shrinking down the same chip provides 30 per cent higher speed or 25 per cent less power than the existing processor, at 1.9 times the density.

The main processor inside Xbox One is one of its most expensive components, with the current 28nm version estimated to cost Microsoft something in the region of $50 per chip. Physically reducing the size by 1.9x means more processors can fit onto the silicon wafers used in production, lowering costs. We can safely assume Microsoft's objectives with the revised processor will be to provide exactly the same performance as the current model (a 30 per cent performance boost offered by the smaller chip is an intriguing thought, but unlikely to materialise), while the reduced power consumption makes for a cooler, more efficient console.

This opens the door to a much smaller cooling assembly and a thinner chassis, which in turn leads to cost benefits throughout the whole manufacturing and distribution process - smaller consoles means less packaging, meaning cost savings in physically shipping the units out from China to retail markets worldwide.

Meanwhile, Microsoft is also looking at other ways to streamline the Xbox One design. The company appears to be investigating new memory technologies, advertising for an electrical engineer (thanks again, Mosen) whose responsibilities include "development of the memory subsystem" and evaluating "different solution options for performance, functionality, stability, cost and risk for the memory subsystem within the platform."

Microsoft is specifically looking for someone with familiarity of existing DDR3 and DDR4 memory technology, suggesting that this position is more about revising the current-gen Xbox as opposed to developing any successor. Top-end 2133MHz DDR3 is currently utilised in Xbox One, but a move across to DDR4 makes sense when the time is right - if only for reasons of economy - although making the switch would require considerable engineering effort. Another option is a move to lower-voltage LPDDR3 - this offers high-density memory modules, meaning fewer of them would be required, allowing for a smaller motherboard. However, this technology is considerably more expensive than Microsoft's current choice - RAM availability is plentiful, but acquiring modules that could run at 2133MHz wouldn't be easy. LPDDR3 seems like a viable mid-term option, while we suspect that any potential move onto DDR4 RAM is years away.
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Of course it is, both consoles will drop to smaller transistor sizes as soon as factories allow it.

As for rumored switch to DDR4, that would entail changing of the memory controller inside of the APU. And that costs a lot of money.
 

Guile

Banned
Woot!

I was planning on getting one for Christmas but I guess I should wait for the slim now? I kinda dislike the size of the One so yeah...
 

Ramza

Banned
Of course it is, both consoles will drop to smaller transistor sizes as soon as factories allow it.

Yep. Since they're essentially the same APU (ES-RAM aside), this'll happen for both of them at the same time, more than likely.
 

iMax

Member
We can safely assume Microsoft's objectives with the revised processor will be to provide exactly the same performance as the current model (a 30 per cent performance boost offered by the smaller chip is an intriguing thought, but unlikely to materialise)

Wouldn't be surprised if they do utilise that performance increase. I can't see games getting any part of it but if they're looking to add additional multimedia features, it'd be useful for those.
 

DBT85

Member
Yep. Since they're essentially the same APU (ES-RAM aside), this'll happen for both of them at the same time, more than likely.

That's assuming that the ESRAM doesn't cause more problems with the shrink than the rest of the APU does surely?

The structure is different, so its not just as simple as "well we can do 20nm now, lets go".
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Woot!

I was planning on getting one for Christmas but I guess I should wait for the slim now?

Don't expect 20nm in consoles for at least next six months. Probably more.

Yep. Since they're essentially the same APU (ES-RAM aside), this'll happen for both of them at the same time, more than likely.

If MS wants to change memory controller in the APU, there is a small chance that they will need longer development cycle. Plus ESRAM is already very dense. Maybe it will cause problems.
 

Ramza

Banned
That's assuming that the ESRAM doesn't cause more problems with the shrink than the rest of the APU does surely?

The structure is different, so its not just as simple as "well we can do 20nm now, lets go".

Very true. In that respect, we could see the PS4 die shrink a lot quicker than the Xbones
 

Xando

Member
Why are they basing it on XB1 so much?
I thought both consoles had the same CPU only with different clock speeds?
 

strata8

Member
That's assuming that the ESRAM doesn't cause more problems with the shrink than the rest of the APU does surely?

The structure is different, so its not just as simple as "well we can do 20nm now, lets go".

IIRC ESRAM is simple in design and largely process-agnostic, and thus easily shrinkable. They'd have far more trouble with certain parts of the CPU that need to be rebuilt by hand for the new process.
 

madp0k

Member
[It's worth pointing out that while there's been no official acknowledgement of a 20nm version of the PS4's main processor, it's almost certain AMD will have carried out the same work for Sony as it has for Microsoft. A PS4 Slim is just as inevitable as a downscaled, cheaper Xbox One, but we should only expect to see them hit the production lines when the financials make sense. Microsoft is staying silent, declining to comment on the cost-reduced processor.
/QUOTE]

No suprise that they'll both be getting a slimmer version, the article even says so
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Wow

I wonder how quickly they are gonna roll this out

Oh man. The gaming scene nowadays is so hectic and messy.

How is this messy when cost reductions with smaller chips always happen? This was an expected move, and most probably both consoles will jump to 20nm late next year.
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Every bit of extra power would go to the OS and multimedia features, I presume.

What does it means?
More powerful than PS4?

Smaller console chips are not made so that their processing power could increase.

Their capabilities will remain exactly the same, but they could be produced for less money, and because they spend less electricity and create less heat, entire console can be made to be smaller and less expensive [smaller PSU, smaller cooling, smaller mobo].

PS4 will have another round of cost reduction when Sony can move from current sixteen 512MB GDDR5 chips to eight 1GB GDDR5 chips.
 
Well they certainly couldn't make it bigger
xbox_one_vancouver_thumb.jpg
 

Turkoop

Banned
Smaller console chips are not made so that their processing power could increase.

Their capabilities will remain exactly the same, but they could be produced for less money, and because they spend less electricity and create less heat, entire console can be made to be smaller and less expensive [smaller PSU, smaller cooling, smaller mobo].
Alright
Makes sense,Thx :)
 
Why are they basing it on XB1 so much?
I thought both consoles had the same CPU only with different clock speeds?

Because the article is based on someone specifically mentioning designing a die shrink of the APU in Xbox One. Sony's obviously doing their own similar process, but it's not been said publically.
 

DOWN

Banned
Smaller console chips are not made so that their processing power could increase.

Their capabilities will remain exactly the same, but they could be produced for less money, and because they spend less electricity and create less heat, entire console can be made to be smaller and less expensive [smaller PSU, smaller cooling, smaller mobo].

PS4 will have another round of cost reduction when Sony can move from current sixteen 512MB GDDR5 chips to eight 1GB GDDR5 chips.

Except there's a rumored jump up to DDR4 for XBONE
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Except there's a rumored jump up to DDR4 for XBONE

Even if they do switch to it, they will aim for it to have exact same performance as DDR3. They want to switch to DDR4 only because DDR3 will become more and more expensive as years go by.
 

Ramza

Banned
Except there's a rumored jump up to DDR4 for XBONE

No way in fuck. That would completely fuck over the people who bought the original Xbone, as companies would start making games completely tailored to the faster DDR4

Even if they do switch to it, they will aim for it to have exact same performance as DDR3. They want to switch to DDR4 only because DDR3 will become more and more expensive as years go by.

This would be the only reason. Hell, the dev kits would probably still have DDR3 to make sure that the games will still perform well enough on the original model.
 

Xando

Member
Because the article is based on someone specifically mentioning designing a die shrink of the APU in Xbox One. Sony's obviously doing their own similar process, but it's not been said publically.

So AMD is shrinking for the XB1 and Sony does it themselves?
 

m@cross

Member
It would be very stupid for them to upgrade performance. It would create a separation in their user base, piss of early adopters, and make game designers have to develop games for two versions of the system. Most likely developers would simply chose to support the least powerful spec machine and new RAM machines would be pointless.

As far as the CPU goes, yes obviously this is occurring and I am sure the same is true with Sony. It reduces costs for both companies and is pretty much par when it comes to console design.
 

sajj316

Member
I welcome the smaller form factor and improvement of RAM. The One has been more impressive on the media center front and exclusives are enticing.
 

jelly

Member
So AMD is shrinking for the XB1 and Sony does it themselves?

Xbox One just needs more attention with the esram complication. Sony will get the reduction just the same, maybe even quicker unless Microsoft paid for a faster shrink which is possible because it's a little more complicated so AMD have to go out of their way to do it.
 

CeeJay

Member
The console already runs very cool anyway, never heard a peep out of the fan on mine. At the current temperatures inside the box they could use the existing SOC to make a slimmer console without even creating a newer cooler chip.

I'm not saying they are not in the process of of creating a new cooler one, just that currently there already seems to be enough temperature headroom to reduce the size of the box.
 
No way in fuck. That would completely fuck over the people who bought the original Xbone, as companies would start making games completely tailored to the faster DDR4



This would be the only reason. Hell, the dev kits would probably still have DDR3 to make sure that the games will still perform well enough on the original model.

There are 2133 MHz DDR4 ram, but I'm guessing the latency would be off since DDR3 has better latency I think.
 
I wonder of it could lead to some chip Overclocking for newer models?

The current bone is already notoriously quiet and cool even after it's relatively small OC.

If they design the case well enough in terms of airflow, what would stop them Pushing the chip harder?
 
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