• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

"Digital Licenses" Sony's License Agreement: What do they mean for the consumer?

RexNovis

Banned
In the wake of the DDoS attack on countless companies (Blizzard, Riot, Microsoft, Sony, Brazzers etc) an odd issue prevented PS4 players from accessing even their purchased Single Player games. The issue centered around the "license" function for digital purchases. This greatly concerend me so I took it upon myself to do some research on these "digital licenses." To those unacquainted with the term this is how it is explained by Sony themselves with the emphasis in bold by yours truly:

If you are in the North America, South America or Central America, all games and other software made available for use with your PS4 system are licensed to you, not sold, pursuant to the Software Product License Agreement which can be found at http://us.playstation.com/softwarelicense.

BY PURCHASING, DOWNLOADING OR USING THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT (“SOFTWARE”), YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS SOFTWARE PRODUCT LICENSE AGREEMENT (“AGREEMENT”). If you do not agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not purchase, download or use the Software.

Please read this entire Agreement, which governs your use of the Software. This Agreement is between the publisher of the Software ("Licensor") and you. The identity of Licensor can be found on the packaging for physical products (e.g., the Blu-ray game disc box) or on the online store page for downloadable products (e.g., PlayStation®Store game page). This Agreement applies to you unless you and Licensor enter into a separate, valid license agreement, in which case the terms of that separate license agreement will govern.

If Licensor is Sony Computer Entertainment America LLC (“SCEA”), this Agreement is between you and SCEA. If Licensor is not SCEA, then (a) Licensor, not SCEA, is solely responsible for the Software; and (b) SCEA is a third-party beneficiary of this Agreement, which means that SCEA has the right to enforce the terms of the Agreement against you.

NOTE: IF YOU ARE A UNITED STATES RESIDENT OR A RESIDENT OF A COUNTRY IN NORTH, CENTRAL OR SOUTH AMERICA, TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, THIS AGREEMENT CONTAINS A BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER PROVISION IN SECTION 9 THAT AFFECTS YOUR RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT AND WITH RESPECT TO ANY "DISPUTE" (AS DEFINED IN SECTION 9) BETWEEN YOU AND A "SONY ENTITY" (AS DEFINED IN SECTION 9). YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO OPT OUT OF THE BINDING ARBITRATION AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER PROVISIONS AS DESCRIBED IN SECTION 9.

  1. GRANT OF LICENSE. The Software is licensed to you, not sold. Upon installation of the Software, Licensor grants to you a limited, non-exclusive license to use the Software for personal use on your PlayStation® system (e.g., PlayStation®4 system, PlayStation®3 system, PlayStation®Vita system, PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) system and all other current and future PlayStation® systems). For PlayStation4 Software only, Licensor also grants to you a limited, non-exclusive license to use the share button to replicate or stream the Software’s audio and video output to third-party services supported by the PlayStation4 system where the Software permits use of the Share button and where Licensor has the rights to permit you to record, edit and share the Software’s content. This limited, non-exclusive license includes recording portions of the Software’s content to the PlayStation®4 system and to use that system’s tools to edit those recordings. Any rights in the Software not explicitly granted to you in this license are reserved by Licensor, including rights to all intellectual property contained in the Software. This license does not include the right to, and you agree not to (a) rent, lease or sublicense the Software or make it available on a network to other users; (b) modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Software; (c) create derivative works from the Software; or (d) copy, publicly perform or broadcast the Software in an unauthorized manner.
  2. UPDATES AND ONLINE SERVER SUPPORT. This Agreement will apply to all Software updates. Licensor may, by automatic update or otherwise, modify the Software at any time for any reason. If the Software uses online servers, Licensor makes no commitment to continue to make those servers available.
  3. INTERNET CONNECTION. Some Software features may require an internet connection, which you must provide at your expense. You are responsible for all costs and fees charged by your internet service provider related to the download and use of the Software.

    WARRANTY/DISCLAIMER/LIABILITY LIMITATIONS. EXCEPT AS PROVIDED HEREIN, THE SOFTWARE AND ALL RELATED SERVICES ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" AND, TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT ALLOWABLE UNDER LAW, LICENSOR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT. WITHOUT LIMITING THE FOREGOING, LICENSOR DOES NOT WARRANT THAT OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER PRODUCT, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL WORK PROPERLY ON ALL DEVICES. LICENSOR MAY, AT ITS SOLE DISCRETION, DISCONTINUE SUPPORTING THE SOFTWARE AT ANY TIME, AND LICENSOR HAS NO LIABILITY FOR SUCH DISCONTINUANCE. LICENSOR WILL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY PERSONAL INJURY, PROPERTY DAMAGE, LOST PROFITS, COST OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS, LOSS OF DATA OR ANY OTHER FORM OF DIRECT OR INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES FROM ANY CAUSES OF ACTION ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THIS AGREEMENT OR THE SOFTWARE, WHETHER ARISING IN TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE, WHETHER OR NOT LICENSOR HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. IN NO EVENT SHALL LICENSOR’S TOTAL LIABILITY TO YOU FOR ALL DAMAGES EXCEED THE AMOUNT PAID FOR THE SOFTWARE. IF LICENSOR IS SCEA AND THE SOFTWARE IS PURCHASED AS PHYSICAL MEDIA (E.G., BLU-RAY DISC OR MEMORY CARD), SCEA WARRANTS TO THE ORIGINAL PURCHASER OF THE PHYSICAL MEDIA THAT THE SOFTWARE IS FREE FROM DEFECTS IN MATERIAL AND WORKMANSHIP FOR A PERIOD OF 90 DAYS FROM THE ORIGINAL DATE OF PURCHASE. SCEA AGREES FOR A PERIOD OF 90 DAYS TO EITHER REPAIR OR REPLACE, AT ITS OPTION, THE SCEA SOFTWARE. PLEASE CONTACT SCEA CUSTOMER SUPPORT AS SET FORTH IN SECTION 7 BELOW TO RECEIVE INSTRUCTIONS TO OBTAIN THE REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT. THIS WARRANTY SHALL NOT BE APPLICABLE AND SHALL BE VOID IF THE DEFECT IN THE SCEA SOFTWARE HAS ARISEN THROUGH ABUSE, UNREASONABLE USE, MISTREATMENT OR NEGLECT. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW FOR CERTAIN LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITIES OR WARRANTIES, SO SOME OR ALL OF THE ABOVE EXCLUSIONS AND LIMITATIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.

  4. MISCELLANEOUS. This Agreement shall be construed and interpreted in accordance with the laws of the State of California applying to contracts fully executed and performed within the State of California. If the binding arbitration terms of Section 6 do not apply or are not enforceable on any Dispute, both parties submit to personal jurisdiction in California and further agree that such Dispute shall be brought in a court within San Mateo County, California. If any provision of this Agreement shall be held invalid or unenforceable, in whole or in part, such provision shall be modified to the minimum extent necessary to make it valid and enforceable, and the validity and enforceability of all other provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected thereby. This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement between the parties related to the subject matter hereof and supersedes all prior oral and written and all contemporaneous oral negotiations, commitments and understandings of the parties, all of which are merged herein. Sections 4, 5 and 6 survive the termination of this Agreement.

    IF LICENSOR IS SCEA, SECTIONS 6 AND 7 APPLY.

Source = http://us.playstation.com/softwarelicense/

So, the main take away I got from this wall o' text is that according to Sony we have no purchase rights to any software we buy for the system. Instead we are "licensors" who have no rights of ownership for said software. Now for the legal difference between a license and a purchase

The difference between selling a work and licensing it is significant. The sale
of a physical copy of a work has been the dominant model for transferring IP to the
consumer for more than 200 years. Sales involve the complete transfer of ownership
rights in the copy. Copyright law explicitly anticipates the sale of intellectual property
products and, by the ‘first sale rule,’ constrains a copyright holder’s rights in copies of
the work that have been sold. For example, the purchaser is free to lend, rent, or
resell the purchased copy.
In that sense, copyright law follows IP products into the
marketplace and promotes the continued dissemination of information.

Licensing, however, constitutes a limited transfer of rights to use an item on
stated terms and conditions. Licenses are governed by contract law and, as such,
are essentially a private agreement between two parties. That agreement can involve
a wide range of terms and conditions . . . and need not incorporate any public policy
considerations
, beyond some basic limits on what constitutes an enforceable
contract.

Source

So Licensing games means companies are free to bypass most any laws in regard to personal ownership most notably the "right of first sale." This also applies to the idea of mandatory license renewals which prevent access to software without confirming the purchase is still valid via an online connection. As such it becomes legal for companies such as Sony or Microsoft to disable purchased software based on the idea of an active subscription (like PS+) whether or not it was stipulated as such when first purchased. Couple this with the phrase
]LICENSOR MAY, AT ITS SOLE DISCRETION, DISCONTINUE SUPPORTING THE SOFTWARE AT ANY TIME, AND LICENSOR HAS NO LIABILITY FOR SUCH DISCONTINUANCE

and we are confronted with he very real prospect of losing access to our purchased games at the whim of these companies and our connection to their authorization servers and before you go and say "well that's why I buy retail" read the agreement closely. The only difference in stipulation mentioned for physical purchased copies is in reference to a 90-day warranty of sorts and it is still referred to as a license in said stipulation

IF LICENSOR IS SCEA AND THE SOFTWARE IS PURCHASED AS PHYSICAL MEDIA (E.G., BLU-RAY DISC OR MEMORY CARD), SCEA WARRANTS TO THE ORIGINAL PURCHASER OF THE PHYSICAL MEDIA THAT THE SOFTWARE IS FREE FROM DEFECTS IN MATERIAL AND WORKMANSHIP FOR A PERIOD OF 90 DAYS FROM THE ORIGINAL DATE OF PURCHASE. SCEA AGREES FOR A PERIOD OF 90 DAYS TO EITHER REPAIR OR REPLACE, AT ITS OPTION,

Thus buying retail does not exempt you from this software as a license agreement.

So GAF, my question is: does this treatment of games as a license instead of a purchased product scare you as much as it does me? Does the thought of losing access to your content at the behest or whim of a "licensor" bother you? Why or why not? What does this mean for the future of our beloved hobby?


Adding to the op for the sake of clarity:
I'm aware others have this stipulation in them but I was looking specifically at Sony's in response of losing access to my games when the network was down due to an "invalid license."

The concern I have is what this idea of games as a license entails for the consumer in a perpetually connected world. Legally speaking Sony or anyone else with such a stipulation in their agreements are well within their rights to revoke access to the software at any time. In the past that was not a concern for physicl media. As long as you have the disc and the hardware you could play the game. Buit when you throw online license authorization into the mix it complicates the issue. I am no longer guaranteed access to the software I purchased. My access could be revoked for not being connected to authorization servers for a certain amount of time or because a publisher loses the rights to a property utilized in the game and is thus no longer allowed to profit from a game with micro transaction in it. The door is literally wide open for "licensors" to restrict access to purchased software.
 
So GAF, my question is: does this treatment of games as a license instead of a purchased product scare you as much as it does me? Does the thought of losing access to your content at the behest or whim of a "licensor" bother you? Why or why not?

No, I've been aware of this since 2005ish and treat my digital purchases as something that can be taken from me at any time.

As such I would never pay similar prices to retail for a digital copy. I think of them as long term rentals more than anything.

This goes for digital content on PSN/XBL/eStore/Steam/etc.
 

remz

Member
Isn't this the same thing people were up in arms about with the Xbone? Although IIRC you can play xbone games offline/when xbl is down as long as you've set the console as your "home" xbox.

It's pretty bullshit when it comes to home consoles and it's pretty bullshit on steam but I guess this is just what you have to put up with from now going forward
 

RexNovis

Banned
No, I've been aware of this since 2005ish and treat my digital purchases as something that can be taken from me at any time.

As such I would never pay similar prices to retail for a digital copy. I think of them as long term rentals more than anything.

This goes for digital content on PSN/XBL/eStore/Steam/etc.

Yea, digital future is so convenient.
I'll take my hard copies...thanks

But read closely. The agreement also treats retail physical media as licenses as well. Physically purchased media is not exempt either.
 

Matt

Member
This is the way it is for...everything. Any media, digital or disk. Movies, music, etc. That's how it has always been.
 

Awntawn

Member
Isn't this the same thing people were up in arms about with the Xbone? Although IIRC you can play xbone games offline/when xbl is down as long as you've set the console as your "home" xbox
No, for Xbone they were talking about physical discs, not digital
 

SRG01

Member
Exactly the same with Steam. This question was answered years ago by the market, so why is this an issue?
 
Isn't this the same thing people were up in arms about with the Xbone?

No the main issue with the original X1 plan was always online, all the time, everything. The current system is fine, although some tinkering to avoid issues such as those faced with a handful of people yesterday should be done.
 

RexNovis

Banned
Yes. If you you were on the primary console you still had access.

Not true. I had my PS4 set as primary and ALL my licenses were revoked during the outage. They all appeared with a lock symbol on them and accessing them gave me a message saying that my license was invalid. I was unable to restore them because the network was non responsive and was thus unable to play the games until the network came back up.

No, for Xbone they were talking about physical discs, not digital

Read the agreement physical disc purchases are also stipulated as licenses. The only difference is that they have a 90 day warranty of sorts. Physical purchases are not exempt.
 

Tagyhag

Member
It scares me on a closed system.

Isn't this the exact same as Steam? No one seems to complain about their policy.

There are some people that still do complain (Rightfully so) but in the worst case scenario there are different alternatives (Valve's master key, torrents, etc.) that insure if anything happens you can still get to play your games if you really want to.
 

Zarx

Member
check the license of just about any software for the last 20 years and you will find the same thing.
 

RexNovis

Banned
so you are concerned that people had to go offline to play their digital games offline? interesting

No I'm concerned about the treatment of all game purchases (including physical) as licenses and what that could entail for the consumer. Please read the OP before posting to dismiss what I am saying.

check the license of just about any software for the last 20 years and you will find the same thing.

How does that make it any less concerning. The fact that it has been in practice for a while does not diminish the potential downfalls for the consumer. This is especially apt with the idea of licensing as a subscription instead of an upfront purchase; something that has taken root and seen lots of popularity the past few years.
 

Matt

Member
No I'm concerned about the treatment of all game purchases (including physical) as licenses and what that could entail for the consumer. Please read the OP before posting to dismiss what I am saying.

Again, this is nothing new at all.
 

Cynn

Member
No I'm concerned about the treatment of all game purchases (including physical) as licenses and what that could entail for the consumer. Please read the OP before posting to dismiss what I am saying.



How does that make it any less concerning. The fact that it has been in practice for a while does not diminish the potential downfalls for the consumer. This is especially apt with the idea of licensing as a subscription instead of an upfront purchase; something that has taken root and seen lots of popularity the past few years.
This isn't new. Pick up a PS1 disc. Games have always been licensed to buyers.
 

Awntawn

Member
Read the agreement physical disc purchases are also stipulated as licenses. The only difference is that they have a 90 day warranty of sorts. Physical purchases are not exempt.
I understand that. it's been that way for years, and people have been okay with it because the practical implications haven't affected anybody. I was simply explaining to remz the difference regarding how the xbox one always online, online only drm for physical discs pushed people past the limit and was deemed unacceptable.
 

RexNovis

Banned
Again, this is nothing new at all.

Yup. You've been a licensee of anything you buy on disk for a very, very long time. It's just that no one ever reads the EULA.

This is news to me. Can you point me to a source on that? I've known about digital purchases as "licenses" for a while but I have never heard or seen anything implying such a treatment for physical retail purchases. This is the first I'm seeing of physical retail purchases being treated as a license outside of Microsoft's initial proposal for XB1.
 

Cynn

Member
This is news to me. Can you point me to a source on that? This is the first I've seen of physical retail purchases being treated as a license outside of Microsoft's initial proposal for XB1.
Open the instruction book for any game you own and read the back.
 
How does that make it any less concerning. The fact that it has been in practice for a while does not diminish the potential downfalls for the consumer. This is especially apt with the idea of licensing as a subscription instead of an upfront purchase; something that has taken root and seen lots of popularity the past few years.

Okay what are your concerns? I've stated I'm comfortable with the status quo in regards to retail products, what do you expect/think might change?
 

Matt

Member
This is news to me. Can you point me to a source on that? This is the first I've seen of physical retail purchases being treated as a license outside of Microsoft's initial proposal for XB1.

Go ready any license agreement. When you buy a disk it means you own the physical disk, not the content on it.
 

Hellshy.

Member
No I'm concerned about the treatment of all game purchases (including physical) as licenses and what that could entail for the consumer. Please read the OP before posting to dismiss what I am saying.



How does that make it any less concerning. The fact that it has been in practice for a while does not diminish the potential downfalls for the consumer. This is especially apt with the idea of licensing as a subscription instead of an upfront purchase; something that has taken root and seen lots of popularity the past few years.

oh well in that case hasnt this topic been covered over and over again? and why just post sony's agreement when MS and steam as well as physical copies have the similar agreements?
 

Timeaisis

Member
But read closely. The agreement also treats retail physical media as licenses as well. Physically purchased media is not exempt either.

Sure it is. Sony might like you to think you only hold a license, but you own a product. Unless they changed 200 years of consumer laws recently and I didn't know about it. If you buy an item, you own it. If you didn't, you would be committing a crime by selling it to gamestop or lending it out to a friend.

Edit: before people can me out on "but EULAs". Yeah, I know. They are highly debated. Look it up.
 

Striek

Member
Someone is just discovering EULAs that have been standard in all software forever. Their enforcability has been a contested issue for just as long.
 

JohnGrimm

Member
It means that the shiny, brand new, digital game that you just bought doesn't actually belong to you. You're paying for an extended trial that can be revoked at any time. It's why I never pay full price for digital games.
 

romulus91

Member
Yup. You've been a licensee of anything you buy on disk for a very, very long time. It's just that no one ever reads the EULA.

This.

However, there is little alternative given is a license is a species of contract law to which you enter willingly (freedom of contract and all that which i assume is much stronger in US).
and not considering unfair term claims etc

Ownership in this context is relating to the physical disc - the license as to the program/software on the disc remains the same as it does with digital (i.e not to copy, not to modify, etc) with the exception that there are implied contractual terms that must come with the disc including allowing others to use software attached to the physical property which is yours

And to the OP:
it is fucking bullshit yes
.
 

RexNovis

Banned
oh well in that case hasnt this topic been covered over and over again? and why just post sony's agreement when MS and steam as well as physical copies have the similar agreements?

I'm aware others have this stipulation in them but I was looking specifically at Sony's in response of losing access to my games when the network was down due to an "invalid license."

The concern I have is what this idea of games as a license entails for the consumer in a perpetually connected world. Legally speaking Sony or anyone else with such a stipulation in their agreements are well within their rights to revoke access to the software at any time. In the past that was not a concern for physical media. As long as you have the disc and the hardware you could play the game. But when you throw online license authorization into the mix it complicates the issue. I am no longer guaranteed access to the software I purchased. My access could be revoked for not being connected to authorization servers for a certain amount of time or because a publisher loses the rights to a property utilized in the game and is thus no longer allowed to profit from a game with micro transaction in it. The door is literally wide open for "licensors" to restrict access to purchased software.
 

Cynn

Member
Vigilante 8. PS1. 1998.


OqMV5wF.jpg
 
This is the way it is for...everything. Any media, digital or disk. Movies, music, etc. That's how it has always been.

Including physical? No. Books are not licensed. DVD movies are not licensed. Music CDs are not licensed. None of these come with license agreements. They are sold and subject only to the first-sale doctrine.
 
You don't buy software; you buy permission to use it. This has been the case since people started arguing about who owns it. The answer is always, "The creator."

If you have a publisher-produced physical copy, the permission to use the contained software is transferred along with the container itself. The new owner is then subject to the same licensing terms.
 

RexNovis

Banned
Vigilante 8. PS1. 1998.

I was not aware that this was an accepted practice for so long. That being said the PS1 was not connected to license authorization servers that could revoke access to the software on your retail purchased physical disc on the whim of a "licensor." The implications of perpetual connectivity change the potential impact of this policy.
 
Not true. I had my PS4 set as primary and ALL my licenses were revoked during the outage. They all appeared with a lock symbol on them and accessing them gave me a message saying that my license was invalid. I was unable to restore them because the network was non responsive and was thus unable to play the games until the network came back up.

Are you sure you have it set as primary? Seemingly most people could play all their games as long as their console was primary already. I was playing Counter Spy and Rogue Legacy during the outage and even the people who got kicked from games seemed to be able to get right back in after skipping the logging into network stage (from that TLOU thread).
 

Hellshy.

Member
You don't buy software; you buy permission to use it. This has been the case since people started arguing about who owns it. The answer is always, "The creator."

If you have a publisher-produced physical copy, the permission to use the contained software is transferred along with the container itself. The new owner is then subject to the same licensing terms.

and we are done.

I was not aware that this was an accepted practice for so long. That being said the PS1 was not connected to license authorization servers that could revoke access to the software on your retail purchased physical disc on the whim of a "licensor." The implications of perpetual connectivity change the potential impact of this policy.

But all you have to do is go offline and the licences will be valid and you can continue to play. the online check is a security measure not drm. if you set your ps4 as primary like i did this should not even of been a thing but even so the simple solution is to go offline to play offline.
 
Top Bottom