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Eurogamer - What developers think of Xbox Game Pass

CyberPanda

Banned

“Choose your development partner as carefully as you choose your love partner."

Subscription gaming services such as Xbox Game Pass, EA Access and PlayStation Now have become a good deal for players - or at least, a good way of ensuring you never reach the bottom of your pile of shame. As this year's E3 festivities made plain, they are now central to platform holder strategy, with Microsoft releasing all its first-party titles on Game Pass, and Google Stadia to ship with its own, if rather meagre, subscription game service. But are they always a fair deal for developers? The details of these partnerships remain closely guarded, but in a panel discussion at Gamelab last week hosted by GamesIndustry.biz editor-in-chief Matt Handrahan, some of the people behind Crusader Kings, Rime, Q.U.B.E. and Inside offered broad thoughts on Xbox Game Pass in particular.

"Consumers want as many games as possible, as free as possible, and you can't get anything for free, so you need to find the right price, but that's the angle," began Dino Patti, co-founder of Playdead and latterly, Somerville developer Jumpship. "Developers need to look at what does this get me, and for me, and I might be biased, but I think the way business is for Game Pass, it's the first time it's actually what I would consider fair for developers.

"[All the other times] I've been suggested subscription it's never worked out, because they don't know what developers need, and in the end, it is developers putting out a game for free!" Patti went on, adding, "with Game Pass they're doing it correctly for the developers."

Paradox Interactive ex-CEO Fred Wester was rather cooler on the subject than Patti, suggesting subscription service providers need to be more mindful of the kind of game they're licensing when thrashing out terms with developers. He drew a comparison with how Spotify and Netflix remunerate musicians and film-makers. "Spotify, they pay you depending on how many times your song has been played. On Netflix, they pay you a fixed fee depending on what they think your [product] is worth. Those are two fundamentally different things, and that's what you see here as well.

"OnLive, for example - they said you can have your game on our service and we're going to attract a lot of customers, and we're going to deliver you money based on how many hours people play the game. Now at Paradox, we loved that business model, because people play our games for three or four thousand hours. While the Game Pass model to us is still a decent model, we think we're not getting paid enough, because people play our games more than they play very single-player driven narratives."

Wester described the investment in games for subscription services as a "gold rush". "I've never seen anything like this in my 16 years in the industry," he went on. "People are throwing money at everything. If you can't make money today in the games industry you'll probably never be able to make money ever - like seriously. If you're an established company, I mean - new companies always struggle."

He cautioned developers in attendance, however, that the good times wouldn't roll forever, and advised them to put long-term self-sufficiency first. "What you need to consider now, when people throw money at you is, three years from now when the pendulum has swung back, and all of a sudden you're standing there knocking on Microsoft's door saying 'please let us in again' - which is going to happen eventually, we all know that, hopefully - is your business model sustainable, and has it been the whole time? And do you have direct access to the people playing your games?

"Those are the only two things you should think about, because if you sell yourself now, with a business model you don't even believe in, because you get $10m cash in hand, I don't think you're going to have a good time in three years. Because these times are not going to come back. I'm sounding like Dr Doom here, I'm a paranoid man!"



Raul Rubio, CEO of Rime developer Tequila Works, expressed this a little more saucily, enjoining developers to "choose your development partner as carefully as you choose your love partner".

Q.U.B.E. creator Dan da Rocha was most tentative of all on the idea of releasing over a subscription service. "At the smaller studio scale, if the price is right, that can work, but at this point in time [for us] it would mainly be for back catalogue stuff, to get on there, onto emerging platforms - to test the waters," he said. "I think, you have to look at the numbers to see if it makes sense."

The developers also shared thoughts on the ups and downs of the console business in general, commenting that, for all the stripping back of certification procedures and investment in self-publishing programmes, it was still something of a walled garden. "I still feel like there's a barrier to entry for the small developer perhaps, compared to Steam and other PC platforms, but it's become more democratised to get onto those platforms," Rocha went on. "Development kits have become readily available.

"Since we came out [with our first game] - back then you had to know someone at Valve. Now the floodgates are open, anyone can be on there. I think there's still that barrier on Xbox, PlayStation and Switch. But once you're through the gate, if you have a new game, once you talk to somebody at that platform, I think it becomes a lot more open."

For Dino Patti, a veteran of Xbox Live Arcade's heyday, the strength of the console business is precisely that it's harder to break into than any PC storefront.

"The barrier to entry at Microsoft actually wasn't a problem - that was and still is the good thing. I often compare this to an athlete: if you're running really fast in a sports club, nobody notices you. If you go to the Olympics, and you're unknown, at least there will be press around you. If you go to console, you can get press, because not every game gets to go to console."


Beyond the implications for individual studios, there are concerns over what subscription services bode for the gaming market and community as a whole. As this editorial from GamesIndustry's North American editor Brendan Sinclair argues, the fact developers don't have access to (often questionably defined) consumption metrics means they have less clout in negotiations with platform holders and publishers. Middlemen, in other words, may benefit from a subscription-driven industry more than creators.

Microsoft has said, however, it thinks subscription packages will continue to co-exist with other ways of selling games. "We don't have a goal of being the subscription where you get all your content," head of gaming services Ben Decker told GI in response to the aforesaid editorial. "This is meant to be additive to the ecosystem. We don't see a future where subscriptions are dominant. We see a future where customers have choice between a subscription and purchase-to-own, where there's a mixed ecosystem because that's what customers want, and that's what developers want."
 

Ailike

Member
Hey it's cool information is being presented and all, but didn't there use to be rules about posting an article in its entirety without commentary? If I'm wrong, sorry, and carry on.
 

Aintitcool

Banned
I wonder if we will have a big resurgence away from subscription models in a few years if it's just a "gold rush" for the current trends/devs. Like I see it as something that might evolve to where games as a service are always on subscriptions, multiplayer, stat drop driven, lootboxes and those devs that don't go that direction will stick to more traditional release models and think of it as financial cancer to the value of your games.

The fact that this article refers to the game as "free", even though there is a clear monthly fee, and you don't own the games, shows how users really feel/see the service. Already paying for it.. therefore free games! (This is so toxic to people's finances. ) Very disruptive to games industry of course but also based on lies.
 

CyberPanda

Banned
Hey it's cool information is being presented and all, but didn't there use to be rules about posting an article in its entirety without commentary? If I'm wrong, sorry, and carry on.
No, it isn’t against the rules to post an article in quotes. Do you want me to post it in binary code?

Even IbizaPocholo IbizaPocholo posts articles in quotes.
 

IbizaPocholo

NeoGAFs Kent Brockman
Hey it's cool information is being presented and all, but didn't there use to be rules about posting an article in its entirety without commentary? If I'm wrong, sorry, and carry on.
That's in the other side. You can't post without adding your commentary.
 

DanielsM

Banned
They don't share metrics. That is fucked.

Still, you might as well cash in as long as MS is throwing money around because they wont be doing it for long.

That's the issue, nobody is throwing money at the developers at all. Everyone wants free shit, but the objective is to extract more from the gamer not less, eventually. I'm not really sure why there is X number articles a day on streaming and rental subscriptions.... companies are putting way too much marketing into all this. It all looks very unsustainable to me.

We should guess how many Game Pass threads there will be tomorrow, closest person get a $1 Game Pass membership. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

joe_zazen

Member
That's the issue, nobody is throwing money at the developers at all. Everyone wants free shit, but the objective is to extract more from the gamer not less, eventually. I'm not really sure why there is X number articles a day on streaming and rental subscriptions.... companies are putting way too much marketing into all this. It all looks very unsustainable to me.

We should guess how many Game Pass threads there will be tomorrow, closest person get a $1 Game Pass membership. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

totally unsustainable. Microsoft is a greedy as fuck corporation, they are nobody’s friend. And yeah, so much social marketing for gamepass right now...
 

CJY

Banned
MS is like a crack dealer... getting you hooked so they can exploit you and whole gaming customer base later. Absolutely disgusting... but such is capitalism.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
That's the issue, nobody is throwing money at the developers at all. Everyone wants free shit, but the objective is to extract more from the gamer not less, eventually. I'm not really sure why there is X number articles a day on streaming and rental subscriptions.... companies are putting way too much marketing into all this. It all looks very unsustainable to me.

We should guess how many Game Pass threads there will be tomorrow, closest person get a $1 Game Pass membership. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

They want to condition people to be on subscription or streaming services, that’s the end game.

The more they talk about it, the more it’s excepted, it’s called predictive programming.

Then they’ll throw the little sidebar of, “we will still support physical games and downloads” for the hardcore software buyers / early adopters of their next boxes.

But if they could have it they're way. Digital and streaming only.
 
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Mista

Banned
It’s the greatest service out there hands down. On top of that, whenever a game gets added on XGP it gets discounted also on the store. Long live the great XGP
 

Dabaus

Banned
I find it interesting that one of the devs is one from MS first party and another is an ex CEO. I mean if this service really was paying devs out i think it would speak for itself. Its quite frankly bizarre to me whenever i go into Xbox safe space threads across the internet and its just a nonstop mantra of "Gamespass, gamespass, gamepass." oh yeah "Phil saids."

Its abundantly clear for anyone not in Phil's cult that Xbox is transitioning to a third party publisher/ app subscription thats platform agnostic. The signs are everywhere.
 
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joe_zazen

Member
I find it interesting that one of the devs is one from MS first party and another is an ex CEO. I mean if this service really was paying devs out i think it would speak for itself. Its quite frankly bizarre to me whenever i go into Xbox safe space threads across the internet and its just a nonstop mantra of "Gamespass, gamespass, gamepass." oh yeah "Phil saids."

It does have a weird quasi religious/political tinge.

it is a well done grassroots campaign because separating the marketers from the koolaiders is actually pretty hard. Who would have thought people could get so passionate about a millionaire corporate executive and a $10 per month sub service. Are there safe Netflix areas of the internet?
 
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FranXico

Member
MS is like a crack dealer... getting you hooked so they can exploit you and whole gaming customer base later. Absolutely disgusting... but such is capitalism.
To be fair, the gaming industry as a whole is pushing for this. Naturally, MS just want to position themselves as the dominant player in that emerging business model.
 
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Dabaus

Banned
It does have a weird quasi religious/political tinge.

it is a well done grassroots campaign because separating the marketers from the koolaiders is actually pretty hard. Who would have thought people could get so passionate about a millionaire corporate executive and a $10 per month sub service. Are there safe Netflix areas of the internet?

At NPC era the xbox thread is literally called "Phils Cult" and they damn well sound like one in there too. After E3 2019 i went down the xbox fandom youtube channels like crap gamer and nxt 720 to get their take on it. Almost all of them have abandoned xbox because the writing is one the wall. Its a fascinating phenomenon to watch a fandom turn like it has.
 
totally unsustainable. Microsoft is a greedy as fuck corporation, they are nobody’s friend. And yeah, so much social marketing for gamepass right now...

MS pays based on downloads. If people are downloading then you get paid. Works great for those games which are not selling well for full price or flopped hard right out of the gate.
 
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At NPC era the xbox thread is literally called "Phils Cult" and they damn well sound like one in there too. After E3 2019 i went down the xbox fandom youtube channels like crap gamer and nxt 720 to get their take on it. Almost all of them have abandoned xbox because the writing is one the wall. Its a fascinating phenomenon to watch a fandom turn like it has.
Lol none of them abandoned Xbox. They all still cover Xbox religiously and buy all Xbox stuff . They just flip flop based on situation. Crap mad since MS went playanywhere. Guy is a joker and has no credibility. He get nothing but insult from people. Check his comments section lol.



MS is permanent player in industry with or without Xbox hardware. If someone think otherwise then he is a ignorant fool.
 

DanielsM

Banned
MS pays based on downloads. If people are downloading and then you get paid. Works great for those games which are not selling well for full price or flopped hard right out of the gate.

Not sure Microsoft is paying by the download, most of these models are based on hourly usage... which is why quite a few smaller developers (in particular) say this is unsustainable, they want to be the publisher in essence but not provide the funds for the development. Total unsustainable.
 
Not sure Microsoft is paying by the download, most of these models are based on hourly usage... which is why quite a few smaller developers (in particular) say this is unsustainable, they want to be the publisher in essence but not provide the funds for the development. Total unsustainable.

Jez on a podcast said it's based on downloads. Xbox 2 podcast i think
 

DanielsM

Banned
Jez on a podcast said it's based on downloads. Xbox 2 podcast i think

So, Microsoft pays say 50cents? per download and I download 30 games every month, completely not sustainable. Most of these models are based on hourly usage, I have no idea as to GP.

Either way there really isn't a ton of money with these things.

Seems pretty tight lipped.

 
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IMO gamepass is a complete money sink for Microsoft. No way can they be making money from this. Fuck the vast majority of publishers and devs in their arses for the shit they have pulled over the past ten years. Gamepass is a way of balancing the scales while finding some genuinely talented devs who aren't as popular as the AAA lot.

Gamepass has some amazing B tier games that offer pure quality gameplay with rough story, voice acting or visuals and I love those kind of games.
 

SonGoku

Member
Fuck this GAAS/MTX pussy ass shit
Pubs are so greedy they'll cause another game industry crash
s while finding some genuinely talented devs who aren't as popular as the AAA lot.
Funny that's what PS+ was all about back in PS3
 
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zcaa0g

Banned
MS is like a crack dealer... getting you hooked so they can exploit you and whole gaming customer base later. Absolutely disgusting... but such is capitalism.


Is disgusting that people have the option of not subscribing to the service?
 

DanielsM

Banned
Is disgusting that people have the option of not subscribing to the service?
To bad the world can unsubscribe to the endless marketing. I personally see nothing wrong with subscriptions, its not sustainable in what is trying to be done. You would think some of these companies would slow down on their silly marketing though. Kind of reminds of the Microsoft Groove Music (formerly Xbox Music) days, promotions and marketing all over the place, eventually started the buy 1 month and get 6 month free deal.... closed it down before people could use the whole 7 months. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
So, Microsoft pays say 50cents? per download and I download 30 games every month, completely not sustainable. Most of these models are based on hourly usage, I have no idea as to GP.

Either way there really isn't a ton of money with these things.

Seems pretty tight lipped.

Because most people download 30 games a month.

Talking out your butt like usual.
 

Dabaus

Banned
IF, and big if here, devs get paid based on how many hours gamers play it then you can 100 percent bank on MS first party games built around exploiting that. They are going to build always online, microtransactions, Games as a service kind of games.
 
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